Zach Miller | UTMB Thoughts, Training and Racing Reflections, 2024 Plans

Finn (00:01.269)
Zach Miller, it is an honor to have you on the Singletrack podcast. How are you doing this evening?

Zach Miller (00:07.103)
I'm good, how are you?

Finn (00:09.529)
I'm doing great, really excited to chat. And, you know, there's so much I want to talk about your career, how you train, how you race, what you're up to these days. The first thing that I want to talk about though, I was listening to your Trail Runner of the Year episode with Dylan Bowman, and I heard you say in passing that you might forgo UTMB and possibly do this hypothetical Gary Robbins race up in Whistler next September. And...

I guess the first question I have is like at this point in time, I know, you know, we're nine months out. Is UTMB completely off the table for you next year?

Zach Miller (00:46.402)
I mean I wouldn't say it's I mean I would say it's off the table for the time being I today is the last day for I have a spot um like I have all my qualification today's I think the 11th so today's the last day to register for elites I don't plan to put it in so yeah I mean I guess things

You know, if things were to change before now and then, you know, I'm a person who's open to relooking at things. That's probably not the right word I'm looking for. But yeah, for right now, it's not in the plan to go there. Yeah, I've been looking at other options, including...

Gary Robbins' potential new race up in Canada.

Finn (01:47.253)
What else could possibly be on the radar? What are you considering? Because I saw on Instagram that you left that email address where people could submit ideas and I'm curious, did you get any good ones?

Zach Miller (01:57.466)
Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, I got, I got some, I mean, I got a lot of emails just from people who were, you know, struggling with the decision of whether or not to run UTMB people who were very decided that they're not running UTMB next year, you know, people, you know, who, yeah, I think most people were either sitting on the fence or, um, pretty decided that they weren't going to run. Um, a few people may have been.

suggesting other races. Most people were just, I guess, inquiring of like, you know, what was I thinking and how might they be able to be involved? But so, yeah, I mean, I have had some, I have, I did, I did receive some emails from some high level elites as well. There's, there's different things that are

Um, I guess on my mind, uh, just from a personal level, um, I'm planning to risk Hard Rock, so then I'm looking for a race after Hard Rock to focus my efforts on. Um, I am, I'm looking at, um, Gary Robinson's new potential race. Um, obviously he's still working on getting it off the ground. So things aren't set in stone there. That's probably one of the races I'm.

That's one of the races I'm considering most highly. But I just can't really make it, I can't really give you an answer on that because he is still in the works of getting it off the ground. So basically Gary and I have been talking and he's just like keeping me updated as he makes progress. If I wouldn't go race there, I mean other races that have failed to me are like, well,

I was trying to think, Tour de Jeanne popped into my mind, but I don't think I would go to Tour de Jeanne's. No, I don't think I would go there. I'm just saying it popped in my mind because I guess I was just talking to someone today. They were saying that's where Francois is gonna go. So no, I don't think I'm so drawn to Tour de Jeanne's for this year, especially coming off of a hard rock. I think it's a bit soon, especially for as big of an effort as that sort of race is.

Finn (04:00.731)
Really.

Finn (04:09.637)
Francois. Yeah.

Zach Miller (04:25.654)
That's just where Francois is going, so it was on my mind. That's not where I planned to go. I would be looking, like I said, at Gary's race or maybe at like Grand Raid Reunion, because I've been drawn to that race for a while and have never had it fit in the schedule. There would be other options. I think Grand Raid would, if it's not Gary's race, I think...

Grand Raid is maybe one of the places I would be most interested in going. I think timeline fits up well. Um, and it just seems like it seems like an interesting and intriguing challenge. Um, and a good race. Uh, yeah, outside of that, I mean, sure. Ultra Hill Cape Town has been on my radar for years and I've never made it down there. Um.

The Templier would fit in pretty nicely and I've been to that race before. They do an excellent job. Um, I think they just announced a, a 10,000 euro prize purse for the race. Um, which is, which is very nice. Um, so not that I don't really, I don't so much make my race decisions based on prize purses, prize purses are really just, you know, they're, they're bone, they're bonuses, they're little, they're cherries on top. Um,

But I mean, I guess just a shout out to them and that they've kind of really upped their game and put some nice prize money in that race, which is not the be all and end all, but it is nice to see races making those efforts.

Finn (06:04.341)
As I was prepping for this episode, I listened to a couple interviews that you did with Billy Yang. I think it was three years ago and five years ago. And maybe it was the one five years ago, back in 2018. He asked you, would you ever do a 200 miler? And it's cool that at the very least, Tour de Gens is maybe on your radar.

Zach Miller (06:19.49)
I mean, it's on my radar as I race. Would I ever do it? I'm not sure. I mean, I won't say I won't because as Walmsley says, he always ends up doing the thing he makes fun of. So like he sort of jokes that he's, he hasn't necessarily said this. I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but he sort of like, you know, he hasn't necessarily said this, but he's I think sort of like joke that like.

Finn (06:32.773)
Haha

Zach Miller (06:47.658)
you know, one day he may become like a race walker because it's like, you know, you're like, Oh, I'll never do that. That'll never be me. Like I, you know, I, I don't, you know, I don't vibe with that. And then next thing you know, you're doing it. So, um, I mean, when I was young, what, like high school, I was like looking at ultra stuff like Western States, 100 and being like, yeah, but, uh, you know, I was very naive and I'd be like, yeah, well, they run so slow. Like I,

I could probably do that. They just run so slow, but I like to run fast. So why would I want to do that? I don't want to do that. And now I do that sort of stuff and I think it's great. So you always have to keep an open mind because the things you think you'll never do, one day you wake up and you're doing them and you think they're the greatest thing ever.

Finn (07:42.061)
It was funny. I was this morning I was listening to Walmsley and Courtney on Dylan's podcast again and Courtney mentions that, you know, in 2024, the Colorado Trail will likely be something that should consider strongly. And then in the very next sentence, Walmsley is like, you know, Courtney, you've had this influence on me to really like, again, evolve into this sort of like race walking ultra long distance stuff. So I don't know, just funny timing.

Zach Miller (08:06.218)
Yeah, I mean, I was hanging out with Wamsley this fall, and he was telling me about how in France he got so into just training of like, you know, basically like hiking around and how he's like come to like that training. And it's like, that was funny to hear because it's like, man, I feel like Wamsley used to just like, love to just like rip around on single track and dirt roads and Flagstaff. And it's like, you know,

You know, but that's the thing like you change and evolve. I mean, like I find it myself too. Like, you know, just yesterday I went for a run in long tights. Like, I mean, that's kind of a joke, but like I used to like wear shorts at all costs. And now I have training runs where I'm like, you know what this having your legs like covered thing is kind of nice sometimes. So but no, I mean, like I also find myself like.

Finn (08:49.998)
I'm sorry.

Zach Miller (09:04.394)
You know, I used to be really, really like pretty stubborn about like running every step, like, oh, don't take any hiking steps. Like this is running, this isn't hiking, like, you know, and it'd be very stubborn. And I'm still that way in ways like if you ever run with me, I'll often keep like a little truck going uphill, even if everyone around me is hiking. Um, but I also like incorporate a lot of steep terrain into my training and have gotten more accustomed to being okay with like.

I'm still learning, I feel like I still fight it when I'm out there, but I'm learning to maybe lean more into whatever feels efficient rather than feeling like it has to be what feels like running. Because really all you're trying to do is move through the terrain as fast as you can and efficiently as you can, so if that's a run, cool, if it's a hike, kind of who cares.

Finn (09:50.676)
What?

Finn (10:03.716)
when did that change start to happen for you?

Zach Miller (10:07.086)
Um, probably within the last, I don't know, two, probably within like the last two years. Um, probably as I like, I'm trying to think. Probably as I started to like get more accustomed to the use of poles, which I, I started Nordic skiing about two years ago. I think this is my third winter Nordic skiing. Um, so.

Once I started doing that I got a lot more that kind of like set the light bulb off in my head of like oh These poles are really like useful like they're really useful in Nordic skiing So it's like, you know Like I couldn't and Matt like if you told me go out in Nordic skews someone and not use poles It's like there's no way I'm gonna keep up like, you know, I'm just gonna be so disadvantaged Disadvantaged so it's kind of like well third this helpful in Nordic skiing if they're even like

like if they're even like a quarter as helpful in running, then like that seems pretty helpful, you know? So I, and I think as I did that and then, and then kind of like incorporated them more into my training and got a lot more focused on steep terrain and just really long days, like, you know, instead of doing training where like, you know, you're kind of topping out at like three hours a day for seven days in a week.

a year go into training weeks that are like, you know, 30 plus out. I'm not even sure what my training weeks were after look at my log, but like 30 plus hours and you're doing, you know, five, six, 12 hour days in the mountains. And it's like, well, when you're doing that, you're just like, you're probably not running like if you're doing that, like out in the San Juan, so you're probably not running every step. But you're still getting a heck of a workout.

Finn (12:02.617)
There's one more thing that I want to talk with you about on the UTMB front. And then I have a bunch of stuff that kind of follows up on training and racing. And the first thing I want to say is a, I have so much respect for you. Again, regardless of what stance you take on UTMB, the fact that you're willing to think about this stuff publicly, take some public stands, I think it's good for the sport. I think it's admirable. Um, but when I think about your relationship with the race, like you spent the last 10 years, super

emotionally invested in it, working towards it. You're so damn close to the mountaintop, like you took second place last year. Obviously it's like an electric environment, fanfare, et cetera. See, I mean, there's obviously a ton of media attention around it, race bonuses, stuff like that. So talk, like what I'm curious about is to the extent that you're willing, can you talk about your mindset around the possible sacrifice of not being there next year and also just like.

what's inspired you to be so public about kind of grappling about what direction you go in.

Zach Miller (13:06.042)
Yeah, yeah, I can speak to that. Yeah, I've been at UTMB for a long, long time. I think I, yeah, I won CCC in 2015. And then I sort of, or very much went on this quest in pursuit of trying to win UTMB that, you know, I still haven't succeeded that, you know, last year, I was, I was final, like last year, I was second. And I was very, very happy with that.

I've had a lot of good experiences at UTMB. I think they've done a lot for the sport. I think they've done a lot of good. I think we've seen a lot of growth at UTMB. We went from years of no prize money to years of like, I forget what it was, like $1,500 in prize money or something for first place. It wasn't much. I don't know what it was, but I think it was like 1,500 or like 3,000 or something. It was...

Finn (13:54.117)
Some. Ha ha ha.

Zach Miller (14:06.25)
It was, you know, I guess it's open to opinion, but it was arguably quite small. So now we have, you know, a full range of, you know, a full, um, championship that basically recognizes 50 K, a hundred K and a hundred mile, more or less. The distances aren't exactly that where every race pays out as far as I know, 10 deep and on the same, same increments, you know, 10,000 euros for first place.

Finn (14:32.953)
Yeah.

Zach Miller (14:36.03)
and then going down from there. You know, is it a New York City Marathon payout or a Boston Marathon payout? No. Are we a New York City Marathon or a Boston Marathon? No. Is it a big event? And would some people argue it should be more? Yeah. Am I grateful for what's there? Definitely. Am I grateful for the progress over the years? For sure. So all that to say like,

Finn (14:51.844)
Yeah.

Zach Miller (15:02.702)
There's been a lot of good things. There's been implementation of proper drug testing, and it's really just sort of this global reunion of runners that people really have a great time and appreciate. I talked to so many runners from all over the world when I'm at UTMB, and it's really cool to see people come together around this one event. Having said that,

You know, I've definitely had my concerns as of late when Ironman came in a few years ago and didn't fully take over. They bought, I think what I don't have like all of the details in writing. I think what I hear is they have like 49 percent shares of UTMB Group.

I believe there's three separate entities. There's UTMB the race, there's UTMB group, which is like from my understanding, basically this network of races, like the series essentially, and then there's Iron Man. So there's these three things kind of all, it's sort of like the Holy Trinity, the three in one, that's sort of a funny analogy, but like that joke might not have landed.

Finn (16:22.623)
Yeah.

Zach Miller (16:29.13)
But anyways, like they're all kind of one and the same, but they're all kind of like different as well. So when Iron Man came in, there were definitely some concerns. You know, they don't have the, at least, you know, amongst the public, they don't have the greatest reputation with their impact on the sport of Iron Man, on the sport of triathlon. It's the sport of triathlon we have to remember, not the sport of Iron Man. But I guess that sort of speaks to...

speaks to what has happened in that space. And yeah, so there's been concerns and I've kept participating since their involvement. There's been some things that have been like, oh, that really rubs me the wrong way. I don't like that, but I always went back. And then this year after the race, when I finished, my goal has been to win.

UTMB particularly to try to be the first American male to win because it had to have been done. And then this year when Jim finished first and I finished second, you know, it was a bit of a monkey off my back. It was like, okay, one, the first American male thing has happened. So I don't necessarily need to feel a need to come like every single year in fear that some other Americans are going to get it. And two, I was really happy with my performance and I felt like

I honestly, when I finished felt like, okay, maybe I'll go do something else now. And then I had an interview with Megan Hicks from Iron Far. And I was kind of explaining this to her. And she was like, and she was the one like of all people, she was the one who I thought would be relieved and will be like, yes, you can finally do something else because I've wanted you to do something else for like, forever. And she was the exact opposite. She was like, no, she's like, you can't. She's like, you were so close. She was like, that was a.

a UTMB winning performance and you need to come back and finish it. Like you choose like you were so close, you can win, you're capable of winning, and you need to come back and finish the job. Um, that was essentially what she said to me. And then I was kind of like, Oh man, that's not at all what I expected. Maybe I should, maybe she has a point. Maybe I should think about this. Um, and so I did. And this, um,

Zach Miller (18:53.558)
This fall, when I went to Italy with the North Face for a big team gathering, I saw Germán Granger there and I talked to him and I was like, Germán, I was like, I think I'm gonna do UTMB. Like, I'm pretty sure that's what I'm gonna do. I was on the fence, but I was feeling pretty confident I would go back. And he was like, yeah, me too, I'm going back. And then it was actually while we were on that trip that the thing with...

the way I'm raised up in Canada happened with Gary Robbins, with Gary giving up his race and then UTMB coming in and starting a new race. And then it was shortly after that, the thing with Corinne Malcolm happened with her being fired from doing live coverage. And that created a lot of stir and that got me, that got me thinking more about like, okay, is this.

Is this a race I want to go back to? Is this an organization I want to be supporting? And after a lot of thinking, a lot of struggling, because I really did want to go back to UTMB, I came down to trying to decide between, okay, well, do I go back to UTMB or do I put my name in for the Hard Rock Lottery? And

Putting my name in for the Hard Rock lottery, all but meant that if it came out, I'd be going to Hard Rock and not UTMB. I wrestled with that decision, talked to a good friend about it, and in the end I decided I'm gonna put in for Hard Rock. I was honestly still considering the option of running Hard Rock and also going to UTMB. It's not my style to stack so closely like that, but I was honestly still considering it.

Um, but I got into hard rock, um, and that's my plan is to go to hard rock. And, and, and just in these months of thinking and things, I just, my, as much as I still would like to try to win UTMB, I think that's, that's important to note. Like, I think some people are like, well, Zach, just he, he did well at UTMB and now he's done and he's just going to make a fuss and that's like, well, I mean, I,

Zach Miller (21:12.526)
wanted to win UTMB and I was pleased last year, but there was still that carrot of like, I'd like to have this on my resume one day to say I won UTMB. I don't know if it'll ever happen, but I would like that. So yeah, I would I don't feel like I've accomplished all my goals there and I would like I did have a strong desire to go back and try to get the win.

Finn (21:19.022)
You have skin in the game.

Zach Miller (21:42.358)
But yeah, as of right now, I feel pretty strongly that I'm not...

Zach Miller (22:01.395)
I'm not a fan of the current direction of UTMB and the impact that it's having on the sport and the direction that it seems to be going. I have a lot of concerns. I don't feel... And this is my opinion.

I don't feel like the organization is acting in a way that is putting the sport first and asking, okay, what is the best, you know, what is good for this, what is best for the sport and for the people that we're serving with this race? And then, you know, proceeding accordingly. I think they're asking maybe that sometimes. And I think they're

they are still doing some good things for the sport, but I just basically, it comes down to like, I'm okay with them being a business. I'm okay with them making money. You know, I'm okay with a big race. I'm okay with media. I'm okay with sponsors, but I want it to be run in a responsible manner. I want it to, I want it to be run in a way that is helping move our sport.

forward in a good positive direction that still leaves space for all for the other facets of our sport of small races of other race directors, you know, I want them to Conduct themselves in a in a respectful manner Respectful towards you know all the racers from the back of the pack to the front of the pack respectful of the fans respectful of

the sport as a whole that they are part of, all those other races, all those other race directors. And I think the interesting thing is that UTMB has a massive opportunity to be a real beacon of light in our sport and to lead the way and to push the sport forward in a very, very positive manner. But I think...

Zach Miller (24:13.222)
It's a real shame because it feels like they're missing an opportunity. You know, they're missing an opportunity. Like, they could still be making money. You know, they could still be, you know, the race that everyone wants to go to. But they could also be conducting themselves in a way that is a lot more respectful and is a lot more mindful. And is stopping to ask questions like, not only like, okay, what benefits us, but...

what is also benefiting, beneficial to the people that we're serving. And I'm not saying that they're not doing that at all, but it certainly seems like they could be doing it better. And that's the big thing for me. And I know that's like kind of vague and there's, you know, I guess there's examples I could speak to of, you know, how I feel, how I come to that feeling.

We also might be out here all night. So like apologies to anyone's like, well, he's being very, very general and he's not saying anything specifically, but I think some people looked at my posts and thought, oh, he's just mad about Gary and Corinne. And to be honest, like to be honest, Gary and Corinne were like the little tip of the iceberg for me up hanging above the water. Like that, like,

Finn (25:15.689)
I get all the time you want.

Zach Miller (25:40.798)
And, and, uh, like, to be honest, like, I, part of me gives UTMB the benefit of the doubt. They didn't even like technically do anything wrong with Wham that maybe it's exactly as they say, like maybe, maybe Vale, they didn't necessarily say this, but maybe Vale did a really crummy job of managing the situation. Gary ended up giving up. They ended up moving in, you know,

Now, is it respectful of them to move into that space without coming and saying, Hey Gary, like, do you mind if like we try to have a race? I know that's incredibly considerate. Like, you know, that's sort of not how the business world works. But at the same time, there's a lot of things in the world that people get frustrated with. They're like, this just isn't good. And the world is kind of crummy. The world is not all crummy. But like,

If we would do more things like that, if we'd be businesses asking questions like that, like, Hey, Gary, we don't want to be like stepping on your toes here. Is it gonna like, how do you feel if we come in? I know that's like being very considerate, but like also why, why can't we, why can't we, you know, hold ourselves to a higher standard like that? Um, and with the current thing, you know, I, I don't have, like, I'll be honest, I don't have a ton of the details there.

Um, but like I said, like, you know, is, is Corrine right? Is UTMB right? You know, I, I don't have all those details, but for me, those were just like little things sticking above the water. Um, and the issue was like it, for me, it's more like, it's, it's much bigger than that. Um, and yeah, it wasn't just like one thing. It was more of like, when I sit back as like, how does this group run their business?

And does it seem like a good thing to me? And the fact that there's as much controversy and conflict and so many elite runners being like, I don't know what to do. Like, do I go? Do I not? That says something about the race that you're running. Like, is that stuff there just because of social media, because everybody has opinions and it flies like wildfire and stuff gets blown out of proportion?

Zach Miller (28:01.534)
Or is that stuff there because, you know, there are, you know, problems. Like there are races out there. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's almost always something that can be controversial, but there's races out there that I can sign up for and feel like, Oh yeah, I, like, I feel good about going to this race. Um, but, but then with UTMB, I think a lot of people have been conflicted. And I, I think that should.

be enough of a red flag to at least stop and say, hey, why is this? And is there something we need to do to make it better?

Finn (28:40.889)
I have two comments that kind of preface this next question I want to ask you. And it's sort of the maybe the last question on this topic because I, there's so much I want to talk with you about, but we, you mentioned the tip of the iceberg and we had Jim Wamsley on the show shortly after UTMB and this was pretty unprompted. He said that even before the Corinne stuff broke, even before the Gary stuff broke, he went on record sort of saying like, I'm actively seeking alternatives to UTMB, not just next year.

maybe in the ensuing years. Granted that was in September, so maybe things changed, but that was the first time in my mind where I was like, wow, like people, you know, of your caliber in the sport are already starting to reconsider this time in the year in their race schedule. So that was interesting to me. The second thing I wanna say, you know, on Instagram, I saw this letter that was co-signed by you and Killian looking into alternative races among the elite community. I will say for the record, I'm gonna editorialize here.

whoever leaked it, I felt like that was a pretty shitty move on their part. I don't think that that's the way to go about breaking news in the sport, but they did it and it's out there and I feel like it has to be acknowledged. In your case, you're an, you're one of the absolute best runners in the sport. Like you, you could, all you could do for the rest of your career is run and nobody would bat an eye. They would be stoked to just see you inspire that way. But you've decided to, in addition to being a great runner, be this advocate for the sport advocate for athletes.

And I guess I'm curious, like from a psychological standpoint, is that, is that easy for you? Is it natural? Do you feel compelled to do it or is it hard? Like, like how are you grappling with this right now?

Zach Miller (30:17.53)
Oh, yeah, it would be a lot easier not to do anything. I think I the first time the first time I really, you know, kind of shared my like my thoughts on this on UTMB in a significant manner was right before Christmas. You know, I put up I put up a post on my Instagram page.

Finn (30:23.961)
You have to prove.

Zach Miller (30:46.954)
And just kind of said where I was at, what I was thinking, was also asking, that's where I had put up that email address that people could reach out. That email goes to me, it's just, I'm terrible at emails from the get-go. And I was like, I do not need all of these emails in my current email inbox, which is already a mess. So I was like, I'm just going to.

do myself a favor and set up a new account just to for all these things to go to. So yeah, that was kind of the first time I set, I like really put something out there. And I remember like after that, I was hanging out with my sister. We were talking and I was like, I forget what exactly I said, but I was basically like,

Yeah, it would be a whole lot easier just not to do anything. And she was probably something like, yeah, activism is hard or whatever. Like, but yeah, it's definitely, yeah, it's definitely not like, you know, it's, it's not the easiest thing. Um, I, I've appreciated, I, I've been, um, corresponding with Killian some during the process and.

I've really come to appreciate him. He has like, he seems to have an incredible like calm and like level headedness and like, foresight into like setting stuff up so that it like doesn't get too overwhelming, at least not right off the bat. Like that's probably like the father of two and one of the world's best endurance athletes coming out in him.

Finn (32:33.017)
Yeah.

Zach Miller (32:40.682)
Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's like, he'll say like, oh, well, we should probably do it this way. So it's like not too crazy. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a really good point. Like, this is probably how you kind of manage all the things that you juggle because you're, you know, how to like, be reasonable with what you're getting yourself into. But anyways, yeah, it's tough. Like, I was just out on a run today and you keep going through your head of like, oh, like, am I?

doing the right thing? Is this like, is, is it, are there really the problems that I think they are? Am I just like overreacting? Am I, you go back and forth in your head, like, like is this, am I just like, why, you know, am I like off base here? Um, you know, cause it's like, you put stuff on the internet and you'll get a lot of, you can get a lot of support. You can also get a lot of criticism. Um, but I think

You know, in the end, I feel good about where I'm at. And, you know, I've got one niece and five nephews. And my nephew Ansel likes to like run circles around the kitchen island. Like I think he did like 89 laps one night. Like he probably ran for like 20 minutes and he's four years old.

And you know, and I think like, what if like one day like those guys can grow up and do whatever they want. They can be artists, they can be poets, they can be writers or football players or ultra runners or whatever. But like if they grow up one day and they're all runners and they're like, hey, Uncle Zach, this sport is a mess. Like nobody cares. You know, like it's just all about like it's just all about like money and all that. And we don't really get like we just like.

I don't know, like we're just kind of carted around like circus animals and like nobody cares about what's right or just or good and like, you know, like, why is it like this? And if I have to be like, well, it wasn't always like that. But it started to but like that ball started rolling when I was there and I didn't do anything to stop it. You know, that would be kind of a crummy place to be in like.

Zach Miller (34:59.178)
You know, and there's no guarantee that we'll end up in that place, but, you know, if, if there's a chance for me to have a positive impact on the sport, you know, not only for the current runners, but also for the future runners, then I think that's a worthwhile thing to do, even though it can be stressful and it can be a lot more emails than I like. You know, and it, and it, and it can.

And it can be really conflicting in your head sometimes with like, oh, is this worth it? Am I doing the right thing or not? But at the end of the day, you just kind of have to stay grounded and decide what you think is important and then go for that.

Finn (35:45.177)
Well, man, I just want to say, I know that what you're doing, in addition to being a pro runner is totally voluntary. It's, it's elective and I think you're doing a good job. I think you're changing the culture in a lot of ways. And, uh, I'm sure a lot of people that are listening appreciate you. So I appreciate like the last 30 minutes.

Zach Miller (36:00.458)
Yeah. And I think, I think there's a couple of things I want to want to throw in. Like for one thing, I'm a very, I'm a guy who's very big on like grace and forgiveness and, and change and hearing each other out. So like my efforts here are not like to be the death of UTMB. I think, I think UTMB, I think the, the goal here is to create, to,

Finn (36:14.617)
Amen.

Finn (36:21.829)
been dictated.

Zach Miller (36:30.634)
is to have a good sport, to have the sport of ultra running B in a good, healthy place, you know, and hopefully that includes UTMB. You know, I just, I would love to have UTMB be like this good positive guiding force in our sport. The goal here is not necessarily, you know, to kill them off. The goal is to, you know, to use our voices to express our concerns.

in an effort to get some course correction and to better the sport. That's the goal. I think one thing that can hinder that is I've sensed there's this vibe among some people that just very easily goes to, well, it is what it is. I feel like I've seen this a lot over the last month or so where they're just like, well, it is what it is. This is just how the world works. This is how big business works. At some point, the big guy just comes in.

and takes over and you need to just like be quiet and just do what you want because like it's gonna happen anyways. And I understand that but I also think that's how we get in really crummy situations. That's how people wake up in the morning and be like, man, the world's really like seems like it's a crummy place, which it's the world is not. Like there are crummy...

Finn (37:46.754)
Licensee.

Zach Miller (37:57.614)
things that we deal with, but the world is also a great place. But sometimes we were like, everything's just gone down the drain and like, this is all bad. And it's like, well, when we keep going through life saying it is what it is, like we see a problem when we say, well, it is what it is, we just, we just put up with it. Then that one day can lead us into a really crummy place. And we, we wake up and are like, why is it like this? And it's like, well, because a whole bunch of us just said it is what it is. And nobody did anything about it.

Finn (38:30.767)
Amen. I want to switch gears and.

Zach Miller (38:34.966)
Yeah, let's talk about something else.

Finn (38:37.185)
And not, not that we couldn't go for an entire podcast, but I'm also selfish. And it's just questions that I've always wanted to ask you. And yeah, so I'm going to ask them, uh, a lot of runners out there think of you as sort of like the pros pro when I, when I asked the question of like who they respect the most, they often point to you. They admire the work you do. They kind of think to themselves, like, I see all the work that Zach is doing. I always wonder like, can I do more? It's kind of like that. And I know you mentioned Killian earlier and like how he has this unique composure.

when handling a lot of responsibility, which I think is a really good description. But maybe besides killing, is there anyone, is there any particular runner in the sport who you really look up to or who you've been like similarly inspired by and they've driven your career to some extent?

Zach Miller (39:20.978)
Oh, well, yeah, I often don't have quick answers for things, but this year at the rut, the runners on the team when we're at the rut got onto, I think it was it was the girls really, the girls on the team got onto this kick of asking everybody who their crushes were, which was like awkward for me. I'm like, I don't like to talk about my feelings. Like, I was like, no, don't like.

I was gonna dodge this question like all weekend. Like, no, I don't need to answer that. But then they got into like, they were like, but they were asking both ways. They were like, who's your, like who's your ultra runner girl crush and who's your ultra runner guy crush? And it was like, and anyways, they, I did admit to them that my, that my ultra runner guy crush is Adam Peterman, which is basically like,

the answer to your question here. Just in that, like, that's just not in an actual, like, romantic way. That's just in, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it could be okay, but for me, it's not in a romantic way. It's just that I think Adam's great. I think he's great for the sport. I think, I mean, obviously, he has some incredible accomplishments,

Finn (40:28.017)
totally fine if that's the case too.

Finn (40:35.569)
Sure. Yeah.

Zach Miller (40:48.022)
He's just such a great human. Like you hang out with him and you're like, this is just a good dude. You're like, you know, like I could lose to this guy and still be cheering for him. Like, you know, which is not always easy to say about everybody, you know? So yeah, he's just, he's really good, really kind, really talented, I think hardworking, you know? It's kind of a bummer to see him out this past year, but also really cool to see him working his way back.

Um, so, and, and Aaron, his partner was out as well. You know, we kind of lost them both at the same time, which was a bummer because she's like an absolute crusher and like, you know, was running so well too. And then ended up in the injury boat with them. Um, but yeah, I, I think a lot of Adam, um, and hopefully we'll see him do some, some big things this year. Cause that guy is, that, that guy is, uh,

Well, he's kind of a very big thing already happening, but a very big thing on the verge of doing even more.

Finn (41:53.853)
If you could hop in a time machine and go back to roughly 2015 when you just signed with the Nike trail team, what piece of advice would you give yourself and why?

Zach Miller (42:05.687)
Uh, what, piece of advice? Um.

Finn (42:09.081)
What would you want that Zach to know about the next eight years?

Zach Miller (42:15.339)
You know, I-

Zach Miller (42:21.634)
I feel like I want to know what I want to say here, but I feel like it's not really stuff I would have told myself back then. It's just stuff I would tell runners now, because the reason I wouldn't really tell it to myself back then was because I think somehow I managed to do these things back then.

And so my experience in doing them is why they're my advice to young runners now. But I think for one, like, don't get too hung up on like chasing the sponsorship or chasing the prize money.

Zach Miller (43:17.526)
Be like, if you're gonna do it and you're gonna pour yourself into it, do it because it's like, because you want to, because it's like you're driven to do it because you're passionate about it. And race things because they're your goals. Those are the things that you wanna go after. Not necessarily just, sure, like money can like price, person and things can have an influence, but like...

go after them because it's like that's what I want. Like, and it doesn't have to be that you want it because there's money there, whatever. And, and don't get too caught up in being like, well, how do I get sponsored? Like, who do I talk to? And like, what emails do I send? And what do I put on my Instagram? Like, no, just go out and chase what you're passionate about and, and work your butt off and, and race like as hard as you can. And then if that stuff like, and then if

If you do that right and you know, maybe have, I don't know if you want to say have a bit of luck, but like, if you do that right and some things go your way, then those other things do tend to come. You know, I guess the space is funny and they don't necessarily come to everyone, but, but for the people who are really like charging and pinning it, like they do tend to come. I feel like most of my career,

Um, and I don't want to sound, um, cocky or anything, but like, I, I feel like most of my career, I was not, I don't know, I just feel like I never put a big focus on like, how do I get sponsored or like, how do I make a lot? How do I make a lot of like prize money? You know, I, I was just kind of, I was running because I loved running.

And I was competitive because I was just naturally competitive and I was trying to be the best I could be. And then one day I ran JFK 50 and like everything started to change. But, you know, sure, there might have been some thoughts of like, oh, like, I don't know, it'd be cool to get noticed or whatever. Like, you know, but I was just very much like, no, I'm just doing this because I'm like into it, you know, and then stuff just kind of started happening. You know?

Zach Miller (45:45.782)
And I think that's my advice. Find what you're passionate about, crush it as hard as you can, and if you crush it big enough, that stuff will come.

Finn (46:00.077)
It's interesting to me that the advice that you would give isn't really something that you've personally seem to struggle with. It seems like you've always been able to kinda stay true to the original mission, original cause, and kinda love for the game.

Zach Miller (46:12.702)
Well, yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's just because... Yeah, I don't know. I guess maybe that's just... Maybe that's just how I am. I don't know. That's just how I roll or whatever. Um, yeah, I just think... Yeah, I don't know. Like...

Yeah, I think there can be a trap in trying to chase like... I think it can be like... I don't know, I think there can be a trap to like... chase money in the wrong way and chase sponsorship. It's... You know, I'm very grateful for where I'm at, but like I just feel like I didn't... hardcore chase those things over the years. Sure, they came along, but like...

Yeah, I think it can actually be like counterproductive. Sometimes people are like, Oh, we'll have to make money. So I'm going to race, go run this race. It's like, dude, that doesn't make any sense. Like, like you might go there and win three grand and that'll be good in the short term, but if you would like set up a smart racing schedule and you would focus your efforts and even run these races that maybe don't have a thing, but are prestigious and you nail those, then like, then something more than a one-time paycheck starts to come and then

and then you start to build some momentum and then you get something. It's, I don't know, I kind of don't want to use this term but it's kind of like this delayed gratification thing. It's like playing the long game instead of the short game. I think playing the short game as a young athlete can be very counterproductive sometimes. You know, not to say always, but I think it can, I think it can be an enticing carrot that can actually like hinder progress. Cause you're just like, oh, in the short term, I'll like, I'll make this money or I'll do this thing. It's like, well, wait, let's step back.

let's look at what we're passionate about. Let's look at like what would actually like be more meaningful. And then let's go like crush those things, um, rather than just like always chasing the next little thing in front of us.

Finn (48:14.149)
Do you get the sense that of all the pros in the sport, most of them are aligned towards the way you approach things or do you worry that more and more runners are kind of falling into these money traps and sort of like not quite the right reason type traps for being in the sport and kind of like approaching it?

Zach Miller (48:33.882)
Um...

Zach Miller (48:37.426)
I think a lot of people who are in the sport are in the sport because they do like it. I mean, I mean, if you're going to be an ultra running, you're going to be spending a lot of time running, you know, so I think a lot of people who are in the sport do like it. I do think like the sponsorship thing, the money thing can get can get distracting.

you like it, but then it's like, I think you can be distracted by like, building your brand and building your career and, you know, and yet those, I get it, those are kind of parts of the game. But I think there's some very genuine, I'm trying to also answer your question.

I think there's some very genuine people in the sport, but I think there is also developing... I do sense a vibe of as the sport grows and new people come in, there is a vibe of, well, I want to be getting... What I'm doing is valuable and I want to be getting my fair share and I want to be getting paid and all of that. And I think...

You know, and we do want, we don't want athletes to be treated unfairly. Um, but we also, I don't know, we also don't want that to like become, we don't want that element of it to influence us in a negative way. I'm sort of like struggling with exactly how to word this. Um, but yeah, I think I.

Finn (50:26.573)
No, it's great.

Zach Miller (50:31.546)
I think there's a lot of great people in the sport. I think it's easy for some people to get side tracked down ways that are sort of like distracting from the craft of just like, you know, trying to run well. There was a thing on Instagram the other day showing all these NFL players walking into their games. They were doing like a funny thing of like, you know, sort of like who, I don't know if they sort of like who was best dressed, who showed up best dressed.

And they're showing like Patrick Mahomes in like a super sharp suit, and like Jalen Hurts in like, I don't know, really fly looking outfit. And everybody's like so polished and like, and then they show Jason Kelsey. They show Jason Kelsey in the Philadelphia Eagles walking in and they probably showed his brother also, you know, who's dating Travis, who's dating Taylor Swift, like, and Travis would have been like all decked out, you know?

Finn (51:01.809)
Thank you. Yes.

Finn (51:20.689)
Travis.

Zach Miller (51:28.35)
And then they showed Jason Kelsey and he's coming in with like a pair of blue jeans, a ball cap, like a sweatshirt and like, looks like his like maybe like his gym bag from like high school, you know? Like, and somebody that comments was like, Jason Kelsey showed up in his, I'm married with two kids fit. But like, but then other people were like, Jason Kelsey is like, I'm just here to play football.

Finn (51:34.449)
Ha ha ha!

Finn (51:43.237)
collar.

Zach Miller (51:55.566)
And I and I love that I'm like we got it not like in sports We gotta not forget that like we're here to do the sport man Like I'm just here to run the race like I mean granted. There's there's other things to it, too but like I appreciate someone who's just like Dude, this is my craft and I'm mostly about my and like my number one is my craft like, you know like you know it and granted I

My career has evolved a lot or like I've seen a lot of opportunities and things over the years and I work with a lot of sponsors and stuff. But at the end of the day, like I want to be, you know, I want to be working hard at running. I want to be, you know, hopefully performing well at races and I want to be earning my keep like with my feet. Like I want to be earning my keep with my feet. Like that's, you know, like.

I understand that all that social media and all those other things have become a part of it. And we could have a whole other podcast on that and how it impacts the sport. But for me, like I want to be Jason Kelsey, like rolling in with my 15 year old, like my 25 year old gym bag from high school. And I mean, I made that up. I don't know where that bag was from. But like, yeah, just being like, I'm just here to play football.

Finn (53:23.125)
With this next question, I'll preface it by saying you look great, you look young, you look like you just came into the sport, but like, I'm wondering, I'm wondering again, this is kind of philosophical, but when you think about like when your career ultimately ends in the sport, do you want to be the type of athlete who leaves sort of at the height of their powers or do you want to leave after you've started to feel or see feedback that you don't quite have it anymore?

Zach Miller (53:49.193)
Hmm. Well, first off, I have this, I have this strong feeling that

As long as I'm in the sport, like I, right now I'm having a great time in the sport. Like just like I'm having fun. I really love what I do. Like some days I just like, I got back from training the other day and I was like, man, I just love training. Like, you know, like I just found like four hours out there, three and a half hours out there or whatever, just like.

you know, doing whatever it was I was doing like, and it was like, I just, I just love training. But yeah, I

Zach Miller (54:41.907)
I really like what I do. I would like to do it for a while, but I also, if I'm representing brands and signing contracts and being paid, I wanna be earning my keep. If I'm signing contracts that are for professional athletics, which I don't know, how do you define that term?

you know, what point are you a professional? For like the first three years of my career, it was like, I don't bear, like I don't make, like sure, I have a sponsor, I run for Nike, but this is not my primary source of income. Like I make some bonuses and get some flights paid for and get some free gear. Like, but am I a professional athlete? Like I have another job. I teach engine, I teach kids with Legos. Like, you know, like it's, but yeah. So like,

I don't know what constitutes a pro athlete. That depends who you ask. But like if I'm, if, if I'm partnering with brands and signing these contracts where they're supporting me with these, you know, um, good, you know, like with, if they're supporting me with these, you know, with these contracts that they're putting financial investment into, then I want to be earning my kid. And I don't want to be there milking. And I say this now and, and hope, I don't know.

I don't know. I hope I hope I feel like I at this point, I feel like I hope to stick to this over the years, you know, but like, I don't want to be signing contracts, strictly because I used to be good, or because I you know, because I won these things in the past, like, and now granted, I understand that like, your career does have value and you get this reputation and you build, you build up this, this

resume of successes and then brands are like, yeah, but this is valuable. You have a presence in the sport. We want to support you. And I think that stuff is valid to a point. But if I'm there taking up a roster spot on a team's roster as an athlete, then I want to be earning my keep as that athlete, meaning I'm going out there and I'm still like,

Zach Miller (57:08.33)
at a level that I feel is worthy of what I'm being paid. You know, so now if after those years are done, when I'm like, dude, the young guns on the team are kicking my butt now, and you're paying me three times as much, you know what I mean? And I'm taking up a roster spot. I think that's where I would hope I'd be like, no, look, don't give me this. Give it to those guys.

give it to the guy I was at 25 who would have killed for a sponsorship, the guy who's up and coming. And if you want to keep using me, like put me in the lab and let me design shoes or make me a team manager and let me manage athletes or make me a, or make me like, um, make me a guy on your team who like counsels your athletes, like gives them advice, like, you know, or just like throw me some free gear and

some bonuses if like, you know, old geezer me happens to pop a good one of these days, but like don't spend your money that is supposed to be going to like professional athletics athletes who are at the top of the sport. Don't spend that on me if I'm not there anymore. If you want to find another way for me, transition me into another role and use the history of my career to promote your brand and I'm on board with that and you're on board with that.

and maybe we even have a salary involved with that, then let's create a space for that. But let's not take dollars away from all these guys who are coming up the ranks just because like, I used to be good, you know what I mean? And that's like, maybe that can sound, some people might take offense to that mentality, but that's just like my mentality. If I want to roster to be a professional athlete, I want to be there because I'm at that level, not because I used to be.

Finn (59:06.025)
Was your contract up this past year? You just signed a new one or what's your status?

Zach Miller (59:10.506)
Yeah, I was at the end of a contract year this year and then I just like went through a long contract negotiation and Sign sign or actually commit committed to a new one. It was a long process of You know going back and forth on different things and yeah, and then I just committed to Committed to a new one. So yeah, I mean not a yeah. Yeah, I'm still with the North Face. I'm continuing with the brand

Finn (59:34.798)
North Face.

Zach Miller (59:39.642)
I'm not, what was I gonna say? Yeah, I'm not jumping ship. There were, I'll be honest, there were some opportunities after UTMB and I pretty much always take a look around because I'll be honest, my experience in the game is you don't climb the ladder very much unless there's other interested parties. So I almost always

you know, do hear people, I do hear people out and, you know, I look at what my options are. But yeah, I've been happy at the North Face and they, you know, they went through the process as did all the other folks and I've just and I'm continuing on with them.

Finn (01:00:31.065)
I know we can't obviously talk exact numbers, but is the money increasing at the top of the spore for people that are getting first, second, third at UTMB and winning Western states and stuff like that? Like, are you noticing proof that the money's increasing or has it kind of stayed the same throughout your career?

Zach Miller (01:00:45.802)
Oh yeah, for sure. No, it is in no way stayed the same. At the very front, at the top, and I'm glad you phrased it like that because you almost have to like, when you ask this question, you almost have to, I think, break it up. But yeah, at the top end of the sport, and granted, I would not say that like, I am, you know, I wouldn't say that I'm the athlete in the sport who can get...

you know, the biggest contract out there. Like I'm not trying to like, um, I'm not, I'm not trying to like downplay. I'm just saying there are athletes, I think in the sport who have done things I haven't, who have performed better than me, who can demand even, yeah, who can demand, who can get even higher offers. But I do think, yeah, I think where I am in the sport, I do have a look into that realm that you're referring to. And yes, at that, in that,

Finn (01:01:27.641)
You have a damn good resume though.

Zach Miller (01:01:43.354)
in that range of the sport at that upper end, it has grown like astronomically from where I started. Yeah, it's pretty shocking. Like my parents, my father especially, who's, I mean, my dad is a mason by trade and is about to retire from, he now works in

installing kitchen cabinets. And he has just been like blown away over the years of like opportunities that I've that have been put before me and just numbers and things he just like he he's just like dumbfounded that there's that much out there. So yeah, I mean, and granted my experience is not necessarily everyone's but yeah, that front end is definitely moving.

You know, the front end moving means that the other, the middle and the back end start to move too. Which, you know, we always want to be mindful that like money is not everything and money can also like influence a lot of bad ways. But there is a lot of value in what athletes are out there doing, you know, in the sport. There's a lot of value and it's good to see brands recognizing that and brands compensating accordingly.

It's a really weird game because there's no standard of like, you went to school, you got a four-year degree in engineering, average starting salary is whatever average starting salary is, you know, like 70k or whatever, you know, like for engineering. I don't even know what it is. There's nothing like, there isn't that in sports. I work with an agent and my agent, Howie Koflisky.

taught me long ago, he was like, or told me long ago, that he's like, your, your value is whatever you can get a company to pay you. Like, there is no, there's no set scale of like, if you've won this race, or you've done this thing, you know, or, or you've been at it this long that you get X amount of dollars. And yeah, it's a funny game, you know, it's, it's

Zach Miller (01:04:08.786)
I don't know, that is kind of a long, long rabbit hole as well. Um, but I've, I've been fortunate to have a positive experience in that space. Um, I've, I, I've worked with Howie for years and he, he helps me a lot because I do not like the business conversation. Like I, some people are fine with managing themselves and talking numbers. And I'm just like, dude, like.

Finn (01:04:31.644)
Thank you.

Zach Miller (01:04:39.094)
I want to run, I want to build things in my bus, I want to ski. I do not want to go back and forth over numbers. He helps me navigate that and I'm super grateful because it takes a lot of stress off my plate.

Finn (01:04:57.729)
Well, man, like I said, I appreciate you in the in the transparency here. I'll ask you some running specific questions. I guess the next one is, is the 2017 UTMB still the most competitively thrilling slash theatrical ultra you've ever participated in? Or has that changed?

Zach Miller (01:05:14.774)
The 2017? Uhhhhhh

Finn (01:05:16.785)
2017. This would have been, I think, the first year Wamsley was in it. It was like you, Tim,

Zach Miller (01:05:22.03)
Yeah. It was, yeah, I guess it was that stack to the gills. Yeah. Um, I think that, yeah, I think

I think that was an incredibly competitive year in terms of who was in it. I think the, you know, and times show this, I think the sport has really progressed since that year. You know, it's funny to hear you ask that because I'm kind of like 2017, why is that? You know, but yeah, it was, yeah, we did have that year that was just absolutely stacked to the gills. But it's interesting.

Finn (01:06:01.297)
That was a cool one.

Finn (01:06:06.193)
to the gills.

Zach Miller (01:06:08.09)
It's interesting now because it's like the time that won that year is not the time that is winning currently. So basically, that was probably from who was on the start line, one of the most competitive years we ever had. But I think since then, we've had years where the competition may have not been as deep, but the performances have gotten. But the performance...

results have gotten very deep. Um, you know, now we probably have guys. I don't even know, like what did 10th place run this year? Like 22 something like probably, yeah, probably, probably like 22 something. And I'm pretty sure we probably had years where 22 something won the whole race, you know, so, um, yeah, I don't know if we've surpassed that year in terms of like sheer competition of who was on the start line, but I think we've made.

Finn (01:06:48.59)
Yep.

Zach Miller (01:07:06.558)
If those guys in their state then, which I was one of them, were on the start line in the past couple of years, you know, they're still up there, but it's like, we all had to step up our game or we were going to get smashed by our 2017 selves. Or we were going to get our 2017 selves were going to get smashed by our 2023 selves and 2022 selves.

Finn (01:07:35.353)
That year was awesome and I bring it up because again, not to bring it back to UTMB, but one of the things that I get really as a fan that I get sad, depressed about is if we lose, if we lose the unity of competition that UTMB creates, will we ever in the next few years get a chance to see as many people like you on the same start lines again?

That to me is one of the greatest losses in this whole scenario where it's like everyone becomes dispersed. It's like the band breaking up.

Zach Miller (01:07:58.923)
Yeah!

Yeah.

Zach Miller (01:08:04.842)
Well, and that's, yeah, that's one of the great things about UTMB. Like I said, they've brought in a lot of good to the sport and I hope they can, you know, I hope they can continue to do so. Um, I, they, they really have created this, you know, what, and what I have wanted for like years, like, you know, I, I remember thinking like, man, it would be cool if we just had one, we had one race that was just like the undisputed, like.

best of the best world championship. You win this thing and you're basically just the king, you know? Um, and that's what UTMB like, which you could argue otherwise, but like, that's kind of what UT, UTMB became in a sense, maybe, maybe not entirely, but like in a lot of people's eyes, I guess it has become that. And that's been really cool. And having that depth of competition is also really, really cool.

And yeah, you're right. Like if things would falter there at UTMB and we'd lose that, would we ever get it back? And I think maybe we would. Sport has a way. I don't know. I like to think, or I think maybe sport has a way of finding its way. Like, you know, new things kind of emerge. I mean, even like look at...

trail world championships now. It's, I think, I think that is an event that has really come a long, long way. Um, you know, it used to be like, Oh, this is kind of a B level race. And now I think it's much more of an A level race, you know, is it above UTMB? No, I don't think it's at the point where it's above UTMB. Um, but at least not in like an excitement and a wow factor, but in terms of competitiveness, I think that is a top.

Finn (01:09:35.28)
Hell yeah.

Zach Miller (01:09:56.874)
not race and I think they're starting to do a really good job with that event. So, hopefully UTMB can continue to be this wonderful thing that it has brought to the sport. But if it ceases to, then maybe something else can become that. And I also think it's important to remember that

Finn (01:10:21.466)
Thank you.

Zach Miller (01:10:26.371)
Um

I also think it's important for athletes and fans to remember that UTMB is not, I think it's a great event. I don't want this to sound like too much of a jab, but I think it's important to note that UTMB is not the BL and then goal. I think there's been this argument that I've heard lately of, oh, like young, young athletes

upcoming runners, they kind of need UTMB for their careers. Like that's where they go to build their careers. And I very much understand that. But one thing I want to point out, and I don't know how many people have been thinking about this is look at the rankings at the end of the year, which the rankings are always to be taken with a grain of salt, right? They take a year's worth of hard work and performances and come down to amount of algorithms and voting and all this. And it's not like...

It's not a head-to-head race. It's opinions and algorithms, basically, depending on which one we're talking about and how the process is done. But look at the rankings. I believe I actually have not paid super close attention to them as they come out. But I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Walmsley was first, right? Or maybe he hasn't been announced. But assume he's first. But number two is that.

Finn (01:11:56.929)
Is this for trail runner, trail runner of the year or ultra runner of the year?

Zach Miller (01:11:58.518)
For, yeah, there's so many, right? That's also a good question. But if we look at free trail, right? Which I think free trail is an interesting one to look at because it does not go by discipline. We're all in there together. We're comparing like basically just who are the best like trail runners out there. Which is really interesting to put us all in one category where, but I think it's also very cool. And so like, look, we've got, we've got

Finn (01:12:15.761)
Trail runners. Yeah.

Zach Miller (01:12:26.946)
The ones I'm going to point out is I think in number two for men, we've got Remy Bonnet, right? And in number three for women, we've got Sophia Lauchley. And now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's quite possible that neither of those two athletes, who I think you could also argue are two of the biggest up and coming names in the sport, especially Sophia. Remy's been around for a long time, but he just started so young. But they are two of the hottest names in our sport right now.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but did neither of them run a single UTMB race this year? I'm pretty certain that neither were at UTMB itself. And I don't know that either of them ran any series races at all, but they are pretty, I'd say pretty universally accepted as two of the hottest runners in our sport. Also two of the younger runners in our sport. And I think that's important for like.

Finn (01:13:09.058)
Yeah.

Zach Miller (01:13:25.822)
up and coming runners to realize is that like, as we go, as they pick and choose what they have to do, they don't always have to feel like there's only one way to success or there's only one race to success. Like truly good athletes who are crushing have a tendency of bubbling their way to the top. Like you do impressive enough things and people will notice.

Like you run a year like Sophia Lockley has had, and people are gonna notice, like whether you were in Golden Trail races or UTMB races or world mountain running races. And like Grayson Murphy is kind of in that boat too. I think she was pretty high up the rankings and she spent like half the year injured. And you know, mainly what she does is world mountain running. So yeah, I think it's just like, we don't have to be pigeonholed.

to one specific way to build a career. Remy has done a brilliant job kind of in his own, I mean, very much a golden trail series lane, but sort of his own way and Sophia as well.

Finn (01:14:37.965)
You know, you mentioned worlds earlier and that's something that I'm, I'm really excited about the transformation. I feel like, especially after Thailand two years ago has been really exciting. It really has become like an A plus marquee proving ground for athletes getting to the next level. It reminds me though, you, um, I read this, I run far article that you wrote shortly after your world's performance last year was called heart, not smart. And you, if I remember correctly, you sort of

reflect on your formula for success in the sport and you sort of come to the realization that the common denominator for all your races where you feel like you got the most out of yourself is when you lead from the front and you approach things as if winning is sort of the only option. And in worlds, this was one of the few races you say where you kind of went out more conservative and you settled. And that was just like a terrible feeling at the end. And, uh, I'm wondering if you can talk about that more in whether

that article you're sort of advocating for a certain style and whether you see like within the sport like too much settling going on.

Zach Miller (01:15:46.986)
this for a variety of things. But, um, well, you use the word saddle and that, that word sort of has a bad taste in my mouth. I, I ran division three track and cross country in college. And I had this coach, Dave Worthy, he I basically get a year yearly text from him after UTMB of like, they always called me Kizzle in college, I was

Text from Dave Worth just saying a good job out at UTMB because he follows it. I'll get this like pat on the back like once a year after UTMB, which is awesome. I love it. But, oh man, that guy used to tell us not to settle. I think probably more yell at us not to settle. Like, you know, be on an Indian film, you know, just go, or he's going at us like, don't.

Finn (01:16:42.189)
Yeah. Oh yeah.

Zach Miller (01:16:43.798)
Don't settle, don't settle, don't settle. You know, like in the middle of the 10K. And you know, we'd be like laughing the track and you know, the worst thing in a race with him was if he shut up and didn't say a thing, because then you knew you were doing so bad. Like, you know, you would rather have him like be yelling at you like aggressively, you know, then have him not say anything. Because if he just didn't say anything, it was like, oh shoot, I am blowing.

like he, because I'm not even like worth his time anymore. Like, you know, you were worth his time, but it was like. So anyways, like in college, it was like a big thing not to settle, I guess. And I hate settling in a race. I hate it. Like I just like that is such an awful space to be in. And I think that's a space that I can get in more easily if I'm not at the front fighting.

If I'm at the front fighting, I'm just the type of runner that it keeps me engaged. It keeps me like, you know, basically it's kind of like, well, I'm at the front, so things aren't going too bad or things are going really well. And I can see the guys I want to beat. And like, I'm, it's just like self, it's like an additional source of fuel for me to just be out there at the front. And like once I fall back or once I fall behind,

can be really that can be a tough space mentally and it becomes so much easier to just settle and just be like, Oh, well, I'm just off my game now. And you just kind of like get lackadaisical or you don't push as hard. I just like really, I'm just really driven by being at the front. And I think my writing in that article was not necessarily that like, look, this is what everybody should do. I think you have to figure out like what makes sense for you. But it was just sort of this like, not an

Not like I wasn't 100% that I was right in what I was realizing, but I was sensing that like, you know what, maybe this is just how I function. Like, maybe I just do best when I'm out there fighting at the front, you know? And even though on paper, like a coach might be like, oh, that's just an idiotic strategy. Like, I was like, maybe for me, that's the best strategy. Like, I just get out there and just hang on, you know? And that just keeps me going. And...

Zach Miller (01:19:07.862)
You know, for some people, that's not the case. Like they have some other strategy that works. But like for me, yeah, like, like you said, like when I look back over my career, like even from my very first JFK 50 against Rob Carr, I remember being on the tow path and we started running so fast, at least I felt like we were running so fast. That was like, dude, I think we're just going to maybe like all like, I was like, I don't know that we can do this. We were just going to maybe like blow up. Like, like I don't know that anybody can stay on this train. Um.

But I didn't stop, I just kept going, you know, and then it worked. So, yeah.

Finn (01:19:45.221)
There's so much to say there, but one thing that strikes me is within a race, you take a lot of risks, but within a season, you're pretty conservative. Until very recently, maybe even currently, you've never really surpassed more than two or three races a year.

Zach Miller (01:20:00.754)
Yeah, I mean, I've definitely surpassed that when you take in to account like shorter races, because I usually throw at least a few of those in there. But in altars, yeah, no, when I first started racing, actually, right after I raised JFK 50 mile, that's not my first ultra, that was my first 50 mile is my third altar, I guess. And right after I raised that Howard Knippert, who's

Finn (01:20:05.87)
Yeah, but Ultras.

Zach Miller (01:20:28.434)
a guy who ran, I think on like the US, uh, like a hundred K road team or 24 hour team or something said something to me. I met him. I didn't even really know him. I just met him after JFK, like in a hotel with the race director or something. And he said something about like his, like his advice or his like theory was like not more than I forget. I think he said like not more than two or three, don't do more than two or three.

a year that are a marathon or longer. And he said that to me, I was like 25. I was super early in the sport and I took that and I just sort of like structured myself around that. And I was just like, each year I just usually didn't do more than like, usually I would do three and I would try not to do more than three a year. And that includes a marathon or longer typically.

Now maybe there's been a year or two here as I've gotten older that I've surpassed that, but for the most part I still pretty much stick to that. I think that was probably really good advice, especially in my younger years. I think now I feel like I've changed. I feel like I've grown as an endurance athlete over the years and now I actually look at people like Courtney and I...

I look at how I feel now in training and racing and recovery. And like before I would look at something like what Courtney just did and be like, that's like, that's nuts. And like you might ruin your career like that. Um, and it's easy to do that when you haven't been there or when you're in a space where you sort of fear that. But as I've gotten farther along, I now look at Courtney and I'm like, huh, I'm like, maybe, maybe like she's.

onto something and like maybe I can actually do some similar things as well. Like I felt like my ability to bounce from race to race has gotten has gotten better. I'm not as fearful of like going out and doing like in the past I might have been like oh no like I don't do many runs over like 22 miles or like 30 miles like in training like I saved those long things for racing and

Finn (01:22:32.921)
Really?

Zach Miller (01:22:49.374)
a 30 mile day, a 30, 38 mile day, you know, like I don't do it all the time, but like I'll do it. And, and so my, my view, and I think, you know, that's important in life. Like, you know, as we grow and as, as we learn and as we experience things, our views change and we also get curious. I think that's, I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but like, I think that's a really big thing. If you look around endurance sports, some people are like, I'm a self-coached athlete.

And people ask me that like a lot, like, you have a coach? I'm like, no, I'm self-coached. And I think some people get really surprised by that. But if you look around the endurance sport, the world of endurance sports, I have a good friend, Andrew Goetter, who's a triathlon coach back in Pennsylvania, and he coaches all these athletes. And we had a chat about the top triathletes in the world. And he said, you know what? He said, it's a mix.

Some of those guys at the top of triathlon have coaches and some of those guys are just self-coached. Like it's really like just a mix of like, it's not like the best guys all have coaches. Some of them are just kind of like doing their own thing and figuring it out. And you see the same thing I think in ultra where I don't know who all has coaches and doesn't have coaches. From what I understand, Courtney is self-coached. From what I understand, Killian is.

probably self-coached but maybe gets maybe does a lot of reading and talking to people I think Jim is pretty much self-coached but also takes in a lot of like is a bit of a sponge when it comes to learning about training and the thing I'm getting at is If you're saying like well why? Why is it that people on kind of these outliers are doing so well and they're not working with coaches?

And some people are doing super well and also have coaches. Like I think Katie Scheid and Jermaine Germain are probably good examples of that. But the one thing that I think my sort of theory is, one, if you look at Killian, read up on some of the crazy stuff he's done over the years. I look at stuff and I'm like, this is nuts. Like I would have been afraid to like ruin my whole career or injure myself doing this stuff. But I think when you don't have the coach, you sort of have this,

Zach Miller (01:25:10.926)
three reigns to experiment on the fringes. And you get curious and you can just be like, well, what happens if I do this? And you do, because a coach, maybe some will, but most coaches, my theory is most coaches, they don't wanna get you injured and they wanna try and help you do well. So they're coaching a bit safe because it's gonna look bad if you're injured, you know? And it's also like not gonna be good for you either. You're not gonna be happy if you're injured.

So they're kind of like, I'm not saying coaches don't take any risks, but I think there's probably a very like, it's probably common for coaches to play things well safe, like, well, this is what the data says, this is what the books say, this is what the research says, so we're going to kind of play in these lines. And then you get guys like maybe Killian, maybe Courtney, I don't know what everyone's doing, but just you get people who are just self coaching, and they can just be like, well,

You know what? I'm just going to try it. Like, I'm just going to go, I'm just going to do this crazy thing. I'm going to do this crazy training block, and I'm going to see what happens. And you have to, it takes some balls to do that because it might blow up in your face, but you also have the freedom to do it. And I think that's sometimes where those really big gains and those next level performances come from is the people who are willing to go out there and play on the fringes.

But it's, you know, it's high risk, high reward. And I'm not saying that like, you know, you should all go out and do something crazy. But I think it's also like, at the end of the day, it's just running. Like if it doesn't work out, like, I know we care about it a lot, but like, I don't know, like there's something fun about rolling some dice, like, you know, being like, Hey, I don't know, like I did some things differently this year. Like I, I texted with Seth rolling before UTMB he's like, dude, your training looks awesome. And I was like, well.

Finn (01:26:57.593)
Hahaha.

Zach Miller (01:27:07.278)
I was like, I think I'm either going to have like, I think I'm, I'm setting myself up for either like a really big, like, like a really terrible race or really great race. And it was like, I is like, I don't know which one it's going to be like, cause I'm either going to be like way overcooked or I'm going to like unlock something that, that I, you know, that I've, you know, that I've never been capable of and when you're doing it, you don't know until you go out and race and test it.

Finn (01:27:35.405)
Well, everything you're saying is fascinating. It's making me think. My first thought was like, you mentioned Courtney, you mentioned Jim, you mentioned Killian yourself. And my first thought was, well, you were the four eggs that were thrown against the wall and you guys didn't break. But the other 20 eggs that also went after that, they broke.

Zach Miller (01:27:53.418)
Exactly. And that's, that's all. And that's probably partly why like coaches and other people are like, well, no, don't do that, you know, because it's like most of the eggs, they break. But like, that's the that's the fascinating thing, right? I think in sports at this extreme, like sports where

Zach Miller (01:28:17.386)
Like where you can do so much training to try and get these edges, it's sort of a competition of like, well, who can just hold up? Like who just has the body that can hold it together? You know what I mean? Like and not get hurt. It's like they may not even be the most like raw talent, but maybe their body is really talented at not breaking breaking.

and then they can unlock these realms that no one else can get to, because it's like everybody else, as soon as they start to get close to them, they break and they shut down. But then there's a few outliers who can take the work, and then they can unlock these levels that no one else seems to be able to get to. And now there's also other ways to skin that cat, right? Like, look at Remy. I think he probably puts in a lot of quality stuff, and he's unlocking levels that nobody seems to be able to get to.

and probably in a much more reasonable realm of like, of I don't, I don't know, I don't like actually know his training very well, but the vibe I guess like a lot, a much more reasonable volume of work, but getting great results. So there's always more than one way to skin a cat, but I'm intrigued by the stuff out here on the fringes.

Finn (01:29:41.889)
Is there anything from your risk taking over the years when it comes to training methodology that, that you feel has become tried and true, you feel confident doing it and at this point you could like go talk to a coach and say, I think you should try that with your athlete because at this point I think it's, I don't think it's a risk. I actually think it's a requirement for like X, Y, Z races.

Zach Miller (01:30:04.706)
Hmm. Yeah, I don't know. But I do think I've become a big proponent. I think I've become a big proponent of if you're doing overt heavy race, a long endurance, a long, like long in time, long in distance, and high in an amount of vertical race, I have become a big fan of

Finn (01:30:06.885)
like UTMB for example, or you know.

Zach Miller (01:30:32.862)
of jumping heavy into the vert, getting less concerned about the miles, getting less concerned about the pace, and just going out there and becoming like, looking at your runs and being like, man, 80% of this mileage is on pretty mellow terrain. Okay, let's get rid of that stuff. Let's find all the steep stuff. From now on, we mostly, not always, but we mostly go.

Up steep and we go down steep, you know, and we don't we don't baby ourselves on maybe baby is not the right word but like we you know, we stop utilizing all these like Cruiser switchback trails and stuff like that, you know, and we just kind of go deep in into Deep into this really birdie aggressive Terrain where we're doing like 12 minute miles and stuff, but embracing that I feel like that's been

very helpful to me. And it doesn't need to be all the time, I don't think, but having chunks of your training being like that, just really building. I feel like I kind of feel like I spent like a very large portion of my career thinking that I had like good mountain legs and actually like

So I don't know, but I could be wrong.

Finn (01:32:06.581)
I know I've kept us running long. You mind if I ask like three or four more questions and we'll close up?

Zach Miller (01:32:12.65)
Yeah, I do. My phone is saying I've got 10% battery left. Sorry about that. But, but yeah, you can do as many as until it runs out or whatever. I don't know if the balloons were near you.

Finn (01:32:19.185)
All right, I'll ask two.

Finn (01:32:26.065)
Maybe we'll end this episode on the phone dying, but no, this is awesome. All right, one of the questions, obviously you just did rim to rim to rim, which is amazing. And maybe we do an episode on that later because I have too many questions. But I'm originally from New England. I grew up in the Maine, New Hampshire area. The White Mountains are near, the White Mountains are near and dear to my heart. Have you ever considered doing like the Prezi Traverse or the Hut Traverse up there?

Zach Miller (01:32:29.731)
Okay.

Zach Miller (01:32:43.071)
Okay.

Zach Miller (01:32:46.417)
Great mountains.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a spin on like, like the Pemi loop, the Prezi traverse, the, the Hut, the Hut traverse, the some of this stuff is out of your zone. But like the one of the most intriguing FKTs of all to me is the Adirondacks hype piece FKT, tagging all the hype. Oh yeah, the Adirondacks are like, incredible. And the terrain is so hard. Like you get in there and run and you're like this place eats you alive.

Finn (01:33:07.952)
Really?

Zach Miller (01:33:19.218)
And then you go out west and you're like, oh, the Adirondacks. And people are like, where's that? It's like, come on, you guys, it's in New York, not the city, the state. And it's fantastic. Like, yeah, that type of stuff has been on my radar. It's a it's a it's a matter of like finding time for it and getting to it. But yeah, like I I've been up in the white some not excessively so, but some. And it's great up there. The Northeast has some real gems.

Finn (01:33:23.813)
Yeah.

Zach Miller (01:33:49.566)
Um, but yeah. Oh, um, yeah, we converse a little bit back on forth on Instagram. Um, I've never actually met the guy in person. I probably should cause he seems like a hoot. Um, but, but yeah, like I, I followed Jack stuff and I think he really, I think he does some rad stuff. I, I get, I get a kick out of him. Um, but, um, yeah, it's like.

Finn (01:33:50.961)
Have you talked to Jack Hensel?

Finn (01:34:04.351)
You guys would hit it off

Zach Miller (01:34:18.762)
Yeah, he does some really cool stuff. Yeah, every now and then we like try and pick some beta off of each other for something that we're trying to scheme up. But yeah, he's definitely doing some rad stuff out there. His Denali FKT this year was...

Finn (01:34:40.633)
Maybe.

Zach Miller (01:34:46.663)
was cool to see. I don't maybe know all the details about it, but I don't know, he had a heck of a year. It was pretty rad.

Finn (01:34:57.797)
When I was listening to one of your Billy Yang interviews, you talked about maybe one day, the Eastern States 100 and PA would be on the to-do list. And I've actually never heard you talk much about the PA trail running scene. So if you were to make a sales pitch for that and the same way we just talked about the whites and the Adirondacks, what's the sales pitch for PA trail running?

Zach Miller (01:35:17.522)
It's great. I mean, it's got THL running. I don't know, it's sort of like, you know, people always say this stuff like, you know, like, you know, everybody always says they come from the greatest little small town and, you know, they, they learn to work hard and I don't know, like, it's kind of stirred. I don't know, everybody has these things. But I think I think there's just like good stuff all over the country and all over the world.

It's rad that people are into the places they're from and the races that are there. I think Pennsylvania has a cool trail running scene. I think they've got some good race directors. They've got some really rad races and they've just got some real good vibes at their races. I mean, if I'm going to give you a highlight reel of Pennsylvania races, if you're going to race in PA, you got to go to Heiner. Like Pennsylvania people know that's a classic.

I mean, one, it's a great race on incredible, like really cool trails. And then at the end, it's basically just like the most welcoming, like family reunion style cookout where everybody just like pigs out on chicken barbecue, like, and whatever else they've supplied, like everybody fans, like if you ran, if you didn't ran, if you came, if you just come to heckle somebody, you know, you know, everything for you, just super welcoming. Um, but yeah, Heiner.

You gotta come in winter in February and run the frozen snot. My buddy Matt Lipsy says it's big. He describes it as a winterized sky race. It's basically just a race full of climbs that go straight up and straight down. The things that like we don't have super long climbs we top out we max out like thousand foot climbs. But stuff so steep that they like string ropes down to hang on to. And yeah, it's like

really cool race that they strategically try to put it on like the coldest in the coldest time of the year. That's the strategy. And then send everybody out slipping and sliding across whatever the woods bring that day. And then I don't know my own personal bias. I mean, sure, like Eastern States 100 Worlds and 100k. Those are probably great events. I've never run them. But my own personal bias is the Conestoga Trail run in my hometown.

Zach Miller (01:37:40.242)
It's just like 10 mile trail race and some like really rugged classic Pennsylvania trails. Um, that's like where I train when I'm home sometimes. And yeah, love that one, but there's all sorts of cool races.

Finn (01:37:56.821)
This is a random question and I've never asked it before, but I'm curious to hear your response. If you could be great at something other than running, like to the level you are at running, what would it be and why?

Zach Miller (01:38:09.699)
I don't know. That's a good question.

Zach Miller (01:38:15.946)
I mean I think it would be su- yeah I don't really know what that would be like uh

I don't know, like helping people. That's very general. I don't know, I would want it to be something that can have a positive impact, like, which, I don't know. I don't know, I think, I don't, yeah, I don't know. Maybe more of like, I don't know, maybe in my second act, they'd be more of like a mentor of like, you know, with runners, like, just sort of like, I don't know, like.

Finn (01:38:32.421)
Would you be a coach? Would you be a coach on like your second act?

Zach Miller (01:38:55.398)
You know, just kind of being a supporter, being a cheerleader, being a lender of things that I've picked up over the years that may or may not be helpful to them. You know, but yeah, I don't know, whatever it would be, I would want it to be something that isn't just like self-serving, something that's like can be used to like help other people and do something good.

Finn (01:39:20.633)
Maybe last question here. Maybe it's not official yet, but I think you're doing Trans Grand Canaria later this winter. What are your thoughts on racing gym again there? Does that excite you?

Zach Miller (01:39:32.038)
Oh yeah, it's intimidating. I mean, it's gym. So, you know, you sort of feel like you're just signing up at a race to get beat. But, no.

Finn (01:39:42.925)
Is that all you feel about? Like you have the winning mindset with every race. Like even with Jim on the line, do you feel like you're there to win?

Zach Miller (01:39:47.574)
Well, no, I'd be showing up to try. I'd be, I would be showing up to try to win, of course, like very much. Like if I'm going to a race, you know, like, and especially if I'm going to a race. With Jim, I'm showing up to try to win, but I'm just, I just have a great deal of respect for how good he is, you know, and I am, and I'm a, I'm a human being. So I, I feel intimidated by certain things and it's very easy to feel intimidated by Jim, like I'm just.

I'm just honest. But yeah, I'll still go out there and throw down and try to beat him. Like I'll go to U-2 and B and try to beat him. I'll go into the Grand Canyon and try to go for his record. I'm not always going to get it. I'll give it my best shot. But I'll show up there to fight for the win and probably at the same time, a bit intimidated. So yeah, I've been very cautious.

a bit cautious on the trans-gringo and canary thing because I'm kind of like, I'm always doing that like runner thing where I'm like, oh, but I kind of want another week to see how I feel. Like I kind of want to see if the training is clicking. Like I kind of want to, I just want like one couple more good workouts to be like, okay, yeah, I think this is, I think I can be ready. But actually I finished a run today and got back. I was like, I should send that email right now because I feel good about that run.

But we'll see, yeah, I would like to go there and throw down with, it's looking like a quite competitive race, I think. I think Seth Ruling, Jim, Shen, and probably a host of other characters. So it could be a real barn burner.

Finn (01:41:34.341)
Seth Ruling is such a baller. I'm stoked to see how his career has turned out.

Zach Miller (01:41:38.526)
If you want to ever just feel self-conscious of yourself and like demoralize, just go for a run with Seth rolling. Like, and I'm saying that as like, cause I go on runs with Seth rolling and that's sort of what happens. Like go for a run with him or do a photo shoot with them because the dude is like the prettiest runner you do. Like I do a photo shoot with Seth and I just feel like, like a bumbling, like, I don't know, like plotter and Seth is just like prancing around like.

Finn (01:41:51.281)
I'm sorry.

Zach Miller (01:42:07.678)
an angel on clouds, like making everything look so pretty and effortless. And then you run with him and he's a really good athlete. I mean, like came out of the triathlon world. Um, like, you know, I think has some, probably some wheels cycling as well. And like, he gets on the trail and he just floats, like he just floats uphill. He could, he can, that kid can just run and he can run fast. Like, I mean, he, there is a lot.

There is a lot going on there. Um, you know, I think there's a, you know, bright, you know, there's, there's a very large amount of potential for him. And he he's also one that would intimidate me stepping on the line at Transgrid Canaria because yeah, I have, I think very highly of Seth and. Yeah. He, he, he does, you know, he, he's won some very big things he has, or he's won some big things he, you know, he doesn't.

He hasn't won everything he's been in. Some people are probably like, who's Seth Rolland? But he's popped some really good ones and then he's also had some rough goes or some injury woes. But dude, if you just, yeah, I don't know. Go for a run with Seth and yeah, you might feel bad about yourself when you finish it.

Finn (01:43:24.453)
Well, Zach, I can't thank you enough, man. Your generosity, the transparency, the insights means a lot. I know the audience is gonna enjoy this. Make sure to link to all your socials in the show notes. Do you have any final thoughts or calls to action that you wanna leave listeners with before we go?

Zach Miller (01:43:39.62)
Um...

Zach Miller (01:43:43.502)
I don't know, thanks for listening to me ramble for forever. And, and I guess just remember that it is what it is. Doesn't have to be. You can always try to change it. Find something better in running and life and however you want to take that.

Zach Miller (01:44:10.486)
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for taking the time as well. I know I rambled at you for a long time.

Zach Miller (01:44:43.118)
Okay, so how do I, yeah, it says 69%. Do I have to?