Trail Tea #2 | UTMB Issues, Doping Discussions, Media Outlooks

Finn (00:01.363)

We are back with the second edition of Trail Tea. This coincides with the end of 2023. So I suppose we can, we can talk about that as well. But the first topic that needs to be discussed is relatively breaking news earlier today on Instagram, Jack let more of his opinions be known to the Instagram universe. And one of the takeaways was that, uh, Jack is further delaying his entry into the formal race scene. He's not doing UTMB next year. Jack.

Jack (00:21.51)
Oh, jeez.

Finn (00:30.471)
For anyone that is not plugged in social media that only listens to the pod or follows running media this way Talk about your circumstance and your decision there

Jack (00:40.939)
Uh, yeah, so coming out of last season, I decided I did want to want to actually like race some stuff instead of just doing FKTs. And I also was like really looking forward to doing some more runnable stuff. I think like UTMB is like a good middle ground for me because it's fairly steep, which I think I'm better at. But it's also it's also quite runnable, as opposed to like a lot of races in the US where I think I'd get destroyed pretty handily on flatter, more runnable terrain.

Uh, so yeah, I was, I was kind of building my season around doing UTMB next, uh, next September, August. And then just like increasingly, I mean, I think there were some other issues I didn't really acknowledge in that post that were just personal to me and doing UTMB, but I was still, I was still going to do it and then just kind of the, the whole Whistler Alpine Meadows thing happened with Gary Robbins and then the

uh, you know, was like not renewed or was, was fired as a, as a live commentator for them. And then also like, you know, Dacia is now like their principal sponsor and, you know, is, uh, primarily makes, you know, gasoline powered cars. Uh, so I think, you know, there was just like a variety of reasons that just became clear to me that I just like, didn't really want to endorse that whole, that whole system. I mean, beyond that, there were some other personal reasons. I mean, I did want to do the race, but, uh, I was also

You know, I'm touched that a lot of people want me to do the race, but also I felt like at a certain point I was I was kind of doing it for other people and kind of Fitting other people's vision of kind of what they want me to do, which also bothered me a little bit But I still was gonna do it until I was like, you know And I really don't want to I don't really want to endorse this system. So

Abby (02:34.202)
Can I respond immediately? I haven't even had a chance to look at your post, Jack. Jack, just so everyone knows, Jack texted me the copy to his post before he sent it. I was in a meeting. I responded 10 minutes later with some copy edits and he was like, too late. Like, good Lord, Jack, you need to like, you need to cool the burning hole in your pocket. Did it occur to you? Oh, sorry.

Jack (02:51.679)
HAHAHAHA

Jack (02:57.043)
Well, it was beyond that. I actually...

I was gonna say I woke up, I woke up, I mean, it wasn't really, I like fell asleep at 3am last night and I woke up at like 8.30 and I was like planning on going back to sleep and I just like stream of consciousness wrote that. I sent it to you, I was like, hey I need you to look at this and then like 10 minutes went by I was like, okay fucking I'm just posting it and then I was planning on going back to bed and I didn't. Yeah, yeah, so anyways.

Abby (03:08.155)
Thank you.

Abby (03:16.058)
I realized, oh, you were planning going back to bed. Meanwhile, on the East Coast, it was like 1 p.m. So that's pretty funny. Did it occur to you, Jack, that because you've never done any of these races, you coming out and posting this, I'm not doing this race, is somewhat analogous to like Michael Jordan coming out and posting, I will never be competing in the Super Bowl.

Jack (03:22.827)
Hahaha

Jack (03:36.904)
I'm sorry.

Jack (03:40.915)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't. Yeah, maybe. But it's like, I mean, certainly, I am I am the in the position. I'm the of, you know, all the people that would compete at UTMB. You know, I hesitate to apply the term elite myself. But like of all of all the elites, I am like I have the lowest threshold. They're like, there's the least, you know, backlash. I was like the least likely to do it. So, I mean, yeah, it's like no big deal. I mean, obviously we so we already recorded this.

Dan Curts (03:54.19)
Here we go.

Abby (04:08.608)
Yeah, that's it.

Jack (04:10.611)
We recorded this whole podcast already and, you know, Dan said some really inappropriate things. And like, I talked to Finn afterwards and I was like, hey, we got to scrap that recording. Like, but no, there was something wrong with the recording last time, but like, there was talk then that like maybe Jim wasn't gonna do it. And like, it looked like there was gonna be some like wider kind of dissent. I mean, it looks like Zach Miller is not doing it. I don't know. I mean, I think that's maybe a tiny bit motivated by, you know, kind of the-

Dan Curts (04:39.658)
None of that applies to you, you know? Like, you go do UTMB to like, you know, have that level of competition and that's, you know, Jack's done the UTMB thing.

Jack (04:40.296)
receive it.

Abby (04:41.866)
Yeah, exactly.

Dan Curts (04:56.991)
He's proven himself there, you know. Zach, not Jack.

Jack (04:57.3)
I've done the YouTube-

Abby (04:57.369)
Yes.

Jack (05:00.942)
Oh, Zach.

Abby (05:01.259)
Oh. You gotta enunciate your words there, Dan.

Dan Curts (05:02.51)
Yeah. So sure. Yeah, that's fair. No, Zach deciding to not do it this year after having such success is, I don't know. I just think it's still such a good proving ground. And it's an interesting thing, interesting topic when you are related, obviously, because you haven't done races when you've been.

Jack (05:04.57)
Um...

Dan Curts (05:31.918)
the last couple of years just running all these FKTs so strongly. Um, so for me, like, I still want to see you go do one of these big high, high power races, so I'm still rooting for that.

Abby (05:44.978)
I am too. I'm just sorry. Really fast. I'm just curious, Jack, what given that you're not in the racing scene currently, what motivated you to come out and say that you will continue to not be in the racing scene because that's kind of what it looks like from the outside.

Finn (05:45.04)
Object it go ahead go ahead. No good

Dan Curts (06:05.182)
inflated sense of self, probably.

Jack (06:05.287)
Well, so I did. Yeah, so that's 99.9% of it. And also, like, it's been a while since I've raced at anything. So I just like needed some attention. So I was like sitting in bed this morning. That's it. I got it. Um, but, uh, I mean, I did say like, back in, in September or October or something that I was going to do UTMB next year and, uh, you know, there's that like ultra trail running discord. And I think someone said it in there. So I think like.

Dan Curts (06:16.351)
Yeah.

Jack (06:34.063)
some people were aware that I was planning on doing UTMB and I was planning on doing it. And I think, I mean, to what Dan said, like Zach or Jim or Killian coming out and being like, oh, fuck UTMB, I'm not doing that. Like that almost means less in, you know, you could argue that means less than me saying I'm not gonna do it maybe in some capacity because like, they've already kind of like had their shot there whereas like I've never, I've like, I represent, you know, I think the segment of people who have like never had success there, granted, I've never fucking gone there, period.

But I think you could possibly make that argument too.

Finn (07:10.431)
So it sounds like to me, and this is also based on what I've observed, but the people that have taken a stand so far are, you could probably fit them into three groups. The first group is people that are probably past their prime. They're relevant in the sport, but like they're not in their racing prime. So to some extent, it's easy for them to take the position they did. There are other people like Zach Miller who have already had success in the race, although Zach hasn't won it yet. That's a big objective for him. So maybe he does have something on the line.

And then there are people maybe in the FKT camp like you, Jack, who that's your primary residence and you were considering jumping over, but you know, maybe not. I guess the question I have is like, what is, what, which type of athlete is the proper athlete that we should be looking to, to really like take a stand and make an impactful decision here? Like, is it that athlete who squarely sits inside the racing scene is still in their prime has unfinished business? Is it someone else or

Is anybody saying anything a good thing?

Abby (08:11.634)
I think we need to take a step back and ask ourselves, what are we, are we going to accomplish anything by we, I mean, the royal we of trail runners, going to accomplish anything by taking a stand and tying into a conversation we had earlier today, what effect, if any, does any athlete coming out saying, I'm not doing this race have on the viability of the race?

Dan Curts (08:40.525)
I mean, I think, yeah, we were texting back and forth about this all day, but I was definitely with Jack earlier, at least what he was saying was that, you know, I do think if a critical massive elites decided to boycott UTMB this year, I mean, that it would just not have the luster that's happened in past years. If you didn't have any of the big favorites from this past year racing it, it wouldn't

It would not be nearly as interesting, I think, to the general public. And maybe that takes like a year or two or three or four to trickle down. But I have a hard time believing UTMB is UTMB without the history of Kelly and Jim, you know, everyone being there. Like that's so integral to the race, in my opinion.

Finn (09:23.849)
Well, Dan Tech.

Abby (09:24.246)
I was arguing with Kyle about that this today and I took your stance Dan I was obviously doing media at UTMB at the finish line and you cannot compare any moment at UTMB to when Courtney and Jim both cross the line to win. Everyone's there the energy the excitement the brouhaha

Kyle's counter to that was UTMB started as an outgrowth of doing the TMB and it's rooted in the lore and the history of circumventing the Mont Blanc massif. And for the lay person, Ultrarunner who...

They do ultras, but they're not like invested in the media around it. It's more about their own personal accomplishments and following the sport as a fan. They don't care who wins. They're not at the finish line. They're off doing the race. They're like, you know, a quarter of the way into the race when Jim is finishing. Do we think that for those people, they will care if the fastest person is winning it or not?

Dan Curts (10:33.842)
It's the same reason for companies sponsoring athletes. The top end validates the race being important in some ways. That's why people aren't nearly as hyped about a local race without Jim Walmsley competing at it. Yeah, I think you need Courtney there, I think.

Abby (10:57.958)
But who's people in that setting? The people at that race are probably just as hyped. You know, and I look at the sport through a slightly different lens because I'm working in running media where we're largely serving the broad audience who's like just dipping their toes into the sport. They're doing their first 50K. It's about them. It's a participation sport. And you know, and that's something that hasn't been clearly delineated in trail running. Are we trying to be a participation sport?

Dan Curts (11:05.792)
I don't think so.

Dan Curts (11:20.814)
But I think there is.

Abby (11:27.902)
or spectator sport or both. And it sounds like you're talking about the spectator aspect of the race, but I think for the majority, sorry.

Dan Curts (11:34.582)
Well, it's hard to.

Well, no, I'd definitely cut you off, but I think it's hard culturally too in the US verse. Europe. I feel Europe can get a lot more excited by the spectator side with, you know, they do care about who wins it, it seems. The Tour de France has some of these similarities. There's no public race for a Tour de France that I know of. At least it's not big in any way.

It is such a huge event and they care about who wins. And I think in Europe, from what I've seen, it seems a lot more like that. And anything all of us do really is in the US, which I think certainly there's a lot of appeal to the common runner, which is great. Both should exist for sure. I just think the UTMB thing will value the winners.

Finn (12:31.811)
I'm gonna go to bed.

Abby (12:32.262)
Okay, sorry, what, sorry, the last thing, and then I will shut up. I think it's hard to compare the Twitter fronts because there is no participation aspect. And UTMB is both participation and spectator. And to slightly foil your point about the distinction of US being participation, Europe being a spectator, I was also at the Golden Trail World Series Finals, and there was, and that was all theoretically a spectator sport, it was just elites competing.

there were zero spectators.

Dan Curts (13:03.15)
Yeah, but it was on the Golf World Liceo. It was like a weird... Maybe not the best location for that.

Jack (13:10.667)
I think in this sport, there's like enormous turnover of the participants. And I think there's new people coming in. There's, you know, older people or, you know, there's people leaving the sport every day and there's new people coming in and the people that are coming in. I think they're going to be informed as to what they want to do. They'll be informed by the current media that exists and is being released. And that current media that's being exist and released is going to follow the elites and like what they're doing.

Abby (13:11.171)
Agreed.

Jack (13:36.511)
because I mean, honestly, I think it's the most interesting storylines, people have committed 100%, but it's also the media that the brands will be sponsoring. And that media will follow what the elites are doing. And I think that like heavily informs what the masses do. So, I mean, it just always blows my mind. Like when you go in sport, at least in like, I don't know, running or climbing, like you can go back 15 years and look at the people who are doing races or who are, you know,

I mean, just doing all sorts of stuff. And I've, a lot of times I've never heard of them. And if they existed today, I would absolutely know who they are. But I think there's just such rapid turnover. Like if you're not current, it's kind of forgotten. So I think what the elites are doing is, you know, year to year is very important. But I also recognize the fact, like if I were UTMB and people boycotted the race next year,

I probably wouldn't care at all because you know a lot of these people. It's easy to say, okay, I'm not going to do UTMB next year. I'm going to do diagonal to foo or I'm going to do UTMR or something. And then, you know, Oh, I'm boycott a UTMB and then come back, you know, and then eventually they're going to come back. So if I were UTMB, I'd be pretty confident. I'd be like, Oh, fuck these people. So, um, yeah, but I mean, yeah.

Abby (14:51.018)
To your point, Jack, about the masses wanting to follow the elites, what would you say to what's happened at Leadville where at one point that was where all the elites went now it's not a very competitive race and it continues to sell out every year and has a huge field.

Jack (15:08.724)
No, that's a great foil to it. And I think also your Golden Trail example, that's also a good one too.

Dan Curts (15:17.294)
Well, Golden Trail is not a very good corollary. Like, they, I don't think they've perfectly defined their thing. The, I mean, currently the final is to be determined, like all that stuff. And it always bounces around. I mean, Finn knows, all right, there's a good chance Finn knows when he's gonna go out to UTMB, way in advance. I mean, he's got that stuff planned because he knows when the race is and it's...

It's just always there. Um, I don't know. Well, if it's going this year, I don't know where he stands on all this.

Finn (15:54.387)
I'll offer my opinion too, but Dan, do you have, do you share the same feelings as Jack from that Instagram post? And I'll ask you Abby too, but like, do you share the same feelings? Do you have a different point of view about, you know, opting out of that system, opting in, staying the same, changing? Where do you stand?

Dan Curts (16:11.97)
Well, I literally just got back from a race from the UTMB race in Thailand. Um, and I didn't know what to do with that. Like I was signed up amidst all the commotion. Um, but for me, I don't, I didn't have as much of an issue with it. I think. It's, I, yeah, I didn't have as much of an issue as other people have had with things. Um, I think.

part of that is maybe coming from a track background where so much of things is business and maybe you end up putting up with stuff that shouldn't happen. I mean, I think track has not done a good job of that for sure. And wanting to put your foot down, you, and that's kind of a cop out, like wanting to put your foot down and being like, I completely disagree with this, which people are half

heartedly doing it seems like I don't agree with this, but I will be racing UTMB. I, well, that's kind of like a soft take, you know? Um, and I don't know. I think it's, it's a business. And if people want to keep, um, I mean, the thing with Corinne, it's like brutal. And I don't think good for the sport, but UTMB can have, can have who they want commentating or not, and that doesn't mean I agree with that decision. But.

Jack (17:12.976)
Ha ha!

Abby (17:14.191)
Great.

Dan Curts (17:38.782)
I also think UTMB net is positive for the sport. It was certainly cool being in Thailand and seeing everyone there. So many people, and certainly trail running in Asia is obviously a different culture than here, but everyone in Thailand was so subject to have a big event there. It did not leave me feeling badly about the UTMB series.

And like my race went decently, so that probably also helps for my, you know, opinion of things over there, but everyone was just really proud to have a place to showcase Thailand in a thing that, in an event that seemed kind of major.

Abby (18:10.313)
Thank you.

Finn (18:24.363)
How about you, Abby?

Abby (18:26.578)
Uh, well, I'll qualify this by saying that I race like twice a year. So who really cares what I think? But I, I definitely have gotten a little bit. Perhaps, uh, have seen both sides of it just in the backend of being in media and seeing some behind the scenes conversations that.

I think give me a little bit more of a balanced perspective. I don't think that UTMB is the devil that it's being made out to be. I also don't think that they're perfect. Honestly, it's just left me feeling really unmotivated in terms of my own racing. Like I'm not excited about the environment, at least in the U S that's been created around UTMB, it doesn't motivate me to want to go do it. Whereas.

when I was in Chamonix this summer, or when I was supposed to be racing and working and was injured and didn't race, my thought there in Chamonix was, why did I sign up for CCC? I would just want to do UTMB. Like UTMB is the culmination of ultra running. And now I'm not so sure that that's the case and I'm just feeling blech. Like, what do I even, I'm still training, but what am I training for? I'm just not feeling very psyched about anything in the.

competitive landscape right now.

Dan Curts (19:47.458)
I will say, like, I'm not sure the answer is, like, burn UTMB to the ground and, like, have nothing happen with it anymore. I think it's, I think the most logical path is to push them to shift things in the direction the sport wants to go. I think it's, I mean, and I think Jack does a great job of this, is like being a steward of the sport and wanting to push things the direction he believes. And so it's hard to, like,

really argue with Jack's post, right? Like, if that's his choice, then, and he has reasons for it, awesome. I don't think burning UTMB to the ground and having it cancelled and stopped is the answer, but I think some things that, like, thinking elites should maybe get more money or appearance money or something that way, I think trying to push them as a group towards that is maybe an answer. And, you know, maybe

Abby (20:22.224)
Yeah.

Dan Curts (20:45.574)
enough push back on the Corin situation makes the next Corin not be pushed out. But I think revision of the thing might be the answer instead of complete blow up of it.

Abby (21:00.558)
Yeah, I agree. Just last thing I wanted to say about that. I'm not even commenting on what happened or didn't happen. And if UTMB is evil or if they're not evil, it's more the reaction to what happened that's left me so unmotivated. Like I got into the sport because I was so enchanted by the trail running community and how welcoming they were and how kind everyone seemed to be.

Jack (21:00.839)
I don't want to take the converse it and go something else. Yeah.

Abby (21:26.298)
drinking beers at the finish line of races, like that was what drew me in. And this, the reaction has been so hostile that it's left me feeling just like very disenchanted.

Dan Curts (21:40.894)
There's very little neutrality with things. That's for sure.

Jack (21:44.519)
it is funny, there was like a lot of there was a lot of animosity that I didn't know existed in North America against UTMB. And, you know, I mean, I think I think one thing just important to discuss, and I don't want to take the conversation backwards at all. But it's just like, is that question is we've been talking about, like, you know, whether people should voice cut or not, but it's like, is UTMB actually good or bad for the sport? I think the best thing they bring to the table, and we can discuss whether this is necessary is it is

it is nice to have like a championship race. I do kind of like the UTMB of old, I've got maybe less of an issue with that where it was just a race and you just got in, I don't know, on your UTMB or on your ITRA score and they didn't have like this whole empire of kind of like taking over different races and kind of, I don't know what, vertical or horizontally integrating the entire sport, whatever that would be. But...

Finn (22:42.228)
Hey, do you go to business school, Jack?

Jack (22:45.595)
It's just a what-a-way no big deal. Anyways, no. But it's like, I mean, I think that's, I think that's, you know, having a championship race, I think is good. On the other hand, and I think, Abby, this is probably where you'd have the most insight, is just, I fear that like trail running will turn into a triathlon. And I feel like Iron Man has like a huge influence over the trajectory of triathlon and-

you know, because they're so dominant, they can really influence the entire trajectory of the sport. And it's clear, like, you know, UTMB doesn't, from this, the biggest thing I saw is, you know, I don't really know what happened with Whistler, I don't really know what happened with Corinne. You know, obviously, UTMB kind of has, I guess, has a right to do that stuff. But the clear thing is, it's like there was there was public backlash, and they just they clearly did not care. And so to me, that extends in the future, it's like, what's going to be

the problem next already you had Jim kind of highlighting how UTMB really doesn't take care of elites. And, you know, you show up and you get a pass so that you can I don't know, drive your crew can drive to the aid stations and that's it. There's really not a lot of support from elites and UTMB. I mean, we kind of discussed this already, but I think is kind of dependent on elites showing up. So I guess that's kind of my and you look at Iron Man, like the way they've kind of run triathlon. And like it,

I don't know a ton about it, but it doesn't seem great. Like that Andrew Messick interview that was on the How They Train podcast is like kind of absurd. So, and I just like am just distrustful of authority just to like, to begin with. So yeah, and I feel like, you know, triathlon really doesn't have like any soul or kind of like heart to it anymore, but maybe I'm off there and maybe that's just because the sport is so expensive to do, the barrier of entry is so high and it's much higher than trail running. So.

Abby (24:17.074)
Thank you.

Abby (24:41.402)
Well, I'm happy to comment on Ironman if you want to, since I was at both Ironman World Championships this fall. But, well Dan, what were you gonna say?

Finn (24:41.537)
I wanna-

Dan Curts (24:42.146)
So I.

Jack (24:46.555)
Yes, please, please.

Finn (24:48.003)
Please do, please do.

Dan Curts (24:51.286)
Yeah, I just think it's some of that fear of turning that. And this is totally off the cuff that I've just reaction to Jack's, what he just said. But I think some of the fear of turning into triathlon, I think is valid, but some of it just isn't. I mean, there's no, I don't know what the triathlon equivalent to, watching the video of Jack at Bob Graham round or something. Like, I don't know what,

the equivalent triathlon feet would be. I'm not sure what that sport has. I think trail running can have a lot of facets to it. And there's that ultra running discord we talked, Jack brought up. I mean, just trying to define all the different disciplines. There's such a wide breadth of things that trail running means. And so I think for me, I like the

performance side and so a UTMB championship concept I love. But also I really like the random small race here in New Hampshire that a handful of people go to and you're like, if there's a prize, it's a hand carved wooden something. I just think there should be, yeah, yeah. I won a gallon of maple syrup last year, which was awesome. Yeah, I just think all of that can exist. And I think...

Abby (26:09.511)
or a bottle of maple syrup.

Dan Curts (26:20.27)
to keep things from happening as Ironman did. I do think there should just be maybe a group of elites that helped decide a direction. And I think part of that is trying to happen with the Pro Trail Runners Association thing. I don't know enough about that.

Jack (26:40.561)
I guess.

I guess I was just gonna say my concern a little bit is less for the masses of trail runners and more what will happen to the elites, I think of it where it's like UTMB buys, you know, basically, every fucking race, I mean, not every race, but like, all the competitive races. And so then it's like to be competitive in the sport, to be a sponsored athlete in the sport means you do UTMB races, is that's, you know, what it very well could mean in triathlon, like

Dan Curts (26:52.982)
Yeah, me too.

Jack (27:10.643)
There are triathlon FKTs that are quite popular, like the Teton Picnic, like you cycle from Jackson, you swim across Gemini Lake, and you climb up and down the Grand Teton. That does exist, but that's not part of, I don't think that's part of triathlon as much. I mean, there are FKTs over there that do exist, but I don't know.

Abby (27:29.39)
Okay. A couple of things. First of all, with, uh, Ironman itself, honestly, both Ironman world championships were, were pretty cool. You have to be into the very geekery, you know, showing off your $15,000 bike and your $20,000 wheels. But

It definitely, there's still is a charm to that event and the history, especially in Kona, you feel the history of Kona and its roots and its grassroots. I mean, it really was born out of nothing there. Um, that being said, it is a big corporate event. And for example, if you want VIP viewing access during the race, cause your family member is racing, you can pay for that.

It's expensive, but you will get VIP service. That being said, I think what's happened with Ironman, and I think would be the best thing to happen with trail running is Ironman had a monopoly on the sport and they were not paying elites enough and...

elites were looking for something else. And so the PTO rose up out of nothing and they came in with a huge amount of prize money offering a competitor to the Ironman series where you can go to these PTO opens and they have, it's a championship style event just for elites. Make it, you make a lot of money doing those. And it was just announced this fall that Ironman actually has raised their prize money to compete with the PTO. And they're now creating.

more of a series type format as well to indirect competition with PTO. So by breaking down that monopoly that Ironman had gained, the pro athletes are really benefiting in that sport right now. So if that were to happen in trail running, which it kind of is maybe with this new series that popped up, although no prize money has been announced and I don't think there are any sponsors, so it's not going to happen this year.

Finn (29:27.659)
Yeah.

Abby (29:29.938)
I think the best case scenario we could see is sure, UTMB build your empire. The stronger you build that empire, the more need there's going to be for a competitor to rise up and that will eventually benefit the elites.

Finn (29:43.383)
To your point, Abby, and for people that haven't listened, we did an episode with Sam Renouf, who's the founder CEO of the PTO, maybe three or four episodes ago. So if anyone wants color on what they're doing, why they were formed, how Iron Man has changed or is changing as a result of their existence, that's a good episode to check out. Abby, I wanna come back to sort of your feeling of demotivation, not just because of the actions that UTMB took, but also like the reactions.

to those reactions and I kind of felt the same thing with you, like whether or not you think UTMB was right or wrong or within their rights, et cetera, I get the sentiment that you know, you wanna stop a bully or you wanna prevent monopolies, you wanna have some sort of safety net, you wanna have checks and balances, I get all that and I feel like we should like work towards that worldview. But I also like some of the reaction I'm seeing out there feels a lot like.

learned helplessness and people feel like it's not within their power to compete or to fight back and that they're totally screwed. And I also have like an anti-authoritarian streak in me. And I always feel no matter how bad it gets or how unfair it is that. Like I do at the end of the day have agency in seeing like my vision or an alternative vision play out. So I was also left demotivated because I feel like.

Abby (31:03.898)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (31:10.871)
there's still so much opportunity out there. And there's always gonna be a space for something that's completely different from UTMB, even if we see them starting to make land grabs and encroach on people's races. Maybe this is controversial. My initial reaction wouldn't be to talk about how I got screwed. It would be more like, here's how I'm gonna respond. I'm not gonna react, I'm gonna respond and I'll build another race. I'll go head to head with UTMB or...

you know, I'll do something else in the landscape, but I just wish, I just wish there was like more of like an agency type reaction as opposed to like, I have no chance, I'm down and out, I'm going to take like a, like a poverty mindset too. I don't know that really like left me wondering like, where's the resolve?

Abby (31:58.938)
Yeah, it felt like the sport a couple of years ago had all of this energy and momentum building. And it at least to me, it feels like in the last six months, kind of the wind has gotten popped out of the sails.

Dan Curts (32:13.634)
You guys are just too close to it, you know? It's just like, it's like you're too close, I think. But also.

Jack (32:13.885)
Yeah.

Abby (32:17.818)
Definitely. Absolutely.

Finn (32:17.867)
Well, totally. But I will say, let me say one more thing. Let me say this feels like if you, if you think about revolutions in a political context, like even the American revolution, even the American revolution was only supported by 33% of the populace. I'm bring up, but think about it. It was, it was, it was landowners revolting against a monarchy. It was not the common people. And I do think it's important to remind the audience here that

Abby (32:29.426)
Yes.

Jack (32:32.348)
Fint's bringing his guillotine to Chamonix next August. Ah!

Abby (32:42.246)
Hmm.

Finn (32:44.759)
There are, it's not like a professional class versus the masses that are fighting. It's two sides of the same coin, two professional classes competing to have a singular worldview in the sport. Um, I have anecdotally probably talked to 50 or 60 average runners in the last three to four months, almost none of them know what the definition of a grassroots race is almost no one could tell you like what is particularly special.

Abby (33:08.284)
Hmm.

Finn (33:11.167)
about a UTMB race versus a local race. I think a lot of that verbiage comes from people like me who have those experiences and are trying to like craft an alternative vision. Like that's just the case. They don't know who Courtney DeWalter is. They don't know who Jim Walmsley is. They certainly don't listen to this podcast. You know, they're just out to run and have a good time. I mean, I go to like, you know.

local races here in Salt Lake City and there are people running quote unquote grassroots races while wearing like Iron Man gear. Like they're like, they're so brand agnostic or brand unaware. And they're just there to like work on their fitness, do a hard thing. And it was like close by. So they did it like the proximity thing, like, yeah. So I don't know.

Abby (33:55.63)
You're reminding me of, I'm sorry, Dan.

Dan Curts (33:55.77)
risk of like, at the risk of upsetting some people with that though, but it's like, they're not the soul of the sport, you know? Like, they're, I'm not sure those people are gonna go along with what's there, almost. And I'm not sure, it's not like their opinions are less valid or something, but I think they have less opinion on it in some ways. Yeah, that's brutal. That's brutal.

Abby (34:19.654)
They are lesser people. That's what you're trying to say, Dan.

Finn (34:22.147)
Oh my god. That's the clip for this episode.

Jack (34:24.381)
Uh-uh, we're gonna have to scrap this recording. Scrap this recording too.

Abby (34:29.122)
Dance canceled from this end.

Dan Curts (34:29.511)
But, but you know, like, I just do think they have less stock in the in the thing. They they enjoy going to races for the weekend. But like, I mean, Finn, for you, this podcast is what you do, you know? And so how, how do you feel about if those big corporate races with tons of money involved are gone from the sport? Does your

Does your podcast exist without a UTMB, without some of those big races? I don't know. Like, I don't know what your opinion would be. I would just be, I would assume that you want things like UTMB in the fandom.

Finn (35:14.155)
Well, first of all, Dan, my psychologist told me that I'm more than this podcast. Okay. So that's the first thing. No, but to be, to be real, um, yeah, this is, this is such a huge moral dilemma for me and there's no question that there is profit at stake. There's like the, literally the existence of my business on the line.

Dan Curts (35:18.646)
Well.

Jack (35:20.139)
Your psychologist lied.

Dan Curts (35:22.134)
Hahaha

Finn (35:41.303)
And I have to seriously take stock of whether we could punt UTMB coverage and do feel good coverage for another race and still stay above water financially. Every single year is a grind for us. You know, the margins are currently super small and yeah. So it's like, I mean, theoretically you could take a, we could take a stand this year,

Finn (36:12.123)
uh, the Whistler area and cover that Gary Robbins race, but we'd probably lose a ton of eyeballs, a ton of clicks, ton of downloads, ton of listens, ton of advertising conversions. Maybe in three years it all plays out. And that was like part of this wave of change where at the exact same time, a couple other media outlets did the same thing. Bunch of key athletes did the same thing, but I'm not sure. Like the thing that I think about is I'm not sure we have enough time.

to wait for that change to happen. So you would need, there would need to be a ton of coordination in concert and then like a very quick shift in public opinion around what races are, you know, the most compelling to tune in for. That's where I'm at right now. We have not made a decision. I will say like, you know, in confidence, like UTMB has been a part of our like advertising race coverage pitches in the last two to three months, even after the Gary Robbins stuff.

That's not to say that there's not time to like renege on all that and do something different. But yeah, it's we take it day by day right now. And yeah, I mean, I'm mad. I think I said all that stuff, which kind of equivocated on where I stand. But I think baseline, I'm pretty mad about it. I'm a free speech person through and through. And like, even if I didn't agree with Corinne's opinions, like just from like a philosophical standpoint, I like the idea of just like letting the commentators talk freely.

be forthright, et cetera. Like I'm not just selectively putting Corrine on a pedestal because I happen to be in alignment with what she believes in. Like, you know, if there was somebody, if it was a single track event and someone was talking about single track poorly, I would celebrate that too. Like it's, you know, it's not situational, but yeah, we're still dealing with it.

Dan Curts (37:56.778)
Yeah, I mean, and obviously I'm like out of my depth of UTMB talk, I've never, I've never been to the event at all. And in terms of the cringe situation, like, I don't know much real insight stuff on that, and I would definitely be fired. Like, in any position like that, because I would, I respect 100% saying your opinion. And I think that should be the standard.

Jack (38:00.693)
Thank you.

Dan Curts (38:25.002)
at the same time you can recognize a business wanting to be, I don't know, I think both sides can be true. Yeah, I also wasn't trying to say that Finn makes a boatload of money from this podcast, I'm sure you don't have like a vacation house on the Mediterranean or something, but you just obviously have so much at stake in all of this.

Jack (38:30.152)
I think.

Jack (38:33.588)
I don't know.

Abby (38:41.084)
yet.

Jack (38:47.971)
I think one thing that's, I mean, maybe I'm off here, but like, I think it's pretty hard to argue against like what Corinne was saying. Like what was it? It was pregnancy deferrals and equal coverage for the women's top 10. I mean, it's like, I don't know, just like do that shit. Like you're going to do that shit in five years anyways, probably. Just do it now. Like, I mean, it's just not, it's just not, I don't know. It's just like not crazy. Like what she was calling, what she was like calling for. But

Dan Curts (39:15.73)
100% like I have no issues with that and that's why it's hard. I think that's why it's such a partly tricky situation because just like obviously I don't think she should have been fired but and there's nothing I fully support those what she's saying but also UTMB as a business like they can act however they want in some way and they

They've obviously lost a lot of fans through this, which is the cost of making those decisions, which they should as well. Like, they should lose opinions for making better, bad decisions.

Abby (39:56.434)
I, this brings up an interesting question. Sorry, really fast. It seems like everyone's been holding UTMB as a company to a much higher standard than we hold a lot of other companies to. Let's take Dacia, the car sponsor as an example. We all buy cars, we drive cars, we go to the grocery store, which is powered by natural gas. We're not like boycotting the grocery store.

Finn (39:56.436)
Alright.

Abby (40:24.61)
or not boycotting the car that we drive, should we as runners be holding a running company to a higher standard than all the other companies that we endorse in our day to day life?

Jack (40:41.387)
I that's a really good question. I think part of it maybe is races are seen. Maybe this the sponsorship of racing is seen as more, you know, more I was gonna say superfluous. I was about a kingdom pronounce. But I think it's just like it's just like less necessary. Maybe like the grocery store has to has to stay open. But it's like, okay, UTMB doesn't get some extra sponsorship money.

Abby (40:55.366)
symbolic.

Dan Curts (40:55.806)
in celery. Yeah.

Jack (41:08.403)
What does that mean? The live coverage is gonna be like their website, their shitty fucking websites gonna be slightly more shitty and shitty and horrible. Um, I mean, maybe that's, maybe that's kind of the reason. Uh, I'm just, I'm totally, totally spitballing, but

Abby (41:23.866)
So we're assuming that UTMB is already a very profitable company and that adding on a car sponsor is just like Kush at the top.

Jack (41:34.923)
I mean, I would just think, I don't know, it's just like, I feel like it's just less, I wanna say less necessary that they have an additional, the marginal sponsor, if it's just kind of like improving the coverage slightly or like what's really the value there, maybe, I don't know, I'm guessing. Yeah, yeah, I'm talking out of my ass probably.

Abby (41:49.062)
But do we know that? By the way, I am not trying to be a UTMB apologist. I'm just being contradictory.

Jack (41:55.943)
No, I think it's a great, it's a great, it's a great point, it's a great point. I think, yeah, it deserves to be said, yeah.

Dan Curts (42:02.038)
interesting because I think I loaded the same

Abby (42:02.202)
just because we don't, I don't know the internal finances of UTMB, I do know that it's very hard to make money as a race organization.

Dan Curts (42:11.794)
interesting because and I think the concept of like trail running and running in general being a solo sport is called quite a few times in your podcast, Finn. And it so is and so many of the people who are who make up that solo sport are so invested. They want great coverage of these races. They want you know they want you out there covering this race with all of the info and details and

Dan Curts (42:39.734)
then there's pushback when there's co-sponsors and stuff. It's like, it's hard to get one without the other, it seems. Like, you need some big money to get well-done live streams about such a long race, you know? And so it's...

Abby (42:53.65)
I think, Dan, you're.

Jack (42:55.615)
I wouldn't straw man the masses in saying everyone wants good coverage here. Yeah. I don't really care.

Dan Curts (42:58.282)
Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I've said a lot of people who make up the soul of the sport.

Abby (43:01.13)
I think Dan though is getting to the heart. Yeah, and you're getting to the heart of the issue and I feel like all of these things that we're discussing are almost secondary effects of what really is the tension, which is we want we again, the Royal we want the sport to retain this quote unquote soul and heart.

at the same time, we want it to grow and be profitable and allow for people like Finn to buy that second home in the Mediterranean and, and for Jack and Dan to become billionaires racing. And so those two things are coming to a head and can they coexist?

Jack (43:31.872)
HA!

Dan Curts (43:32.234)
No one said that.

Jack (43:38.664)
Yes, thank you.

Dan Curts (43:48.342)
Coming a multi-thousand there from racing would be great as well.

Jack (43:49.026)
I- well I think-

And I think in a way to reclaim that is just, I think it's probably and then it's just inevitable as like the sport gets bigger and like more athletes are sponsored, that it's going to become more corporate. And then this is just, this is just, you know, the way it's kind of played out. And like people in the US are like more attached to the idea of kind of like grassroots, you know, small sport, like, I mean, I think that's part of it for me is like, I look at some sponsored athletes, and I think they're fucking pricks. And you know, they have like a ton of money and

just like, you know, this fancy fucking lifestyle. And then, you know, you look at people, you know, you look at Jeff Rose, you know, like living out of that campground, you know, prior to the like 2010 Western States and everything. And it's like, you know, I relate and I like more the 2010 Western States sport. But I think it's probably inevitable that it that it dies eventually, just because like Finn always says, like, you know, you can't like, you know, you can't be competitive in sport, you know, kind of.

Dan Curts (44:24.011)
Any names?

Abby (44:25.542)
Yeah.

Jack (44:48.547)
living like that in many contexts. Like you have to have expensive metabolic testing and all sorts of shit to kind of like compete on the top end.

Abby (44:58.99)
Yeah, I think of trail running were a child, it would be a preteen a tween at that like very awkward phase like they were it was a it was a cute little baby. And we all loved it. And then it was like an innocent little elementary school kid and now it's like in sixth grade and it's like, maybe a little chubby and like doesn't really know what to do with itself and its feelings.

Dan Curts (45:04.855)
Yeah, it's all.

Jack (45:05.751)
Yep, Dan's interested.

Jack (45:15.86)
Uh oh, dudes.

Abby (45:28.402)
That's my assessment of the situation anyway.

Jack (45:31.431)
Needs an older friend mentor.

Abby (45:35.083)
Yeah, exactly.

Dan Curts (45:37.511)
All right.

Finn (45:39.499)
I just want to say for the record, like, I get so much joy out of our group chat. And even though I don't respond to a ton, I laugh so much every single day. Like you guys bring me so much joy.

Jack (45:51.188)
Yeah, that's pretty good.

Dan Curts (45:51.606)
So I think this is part of the, like, what makes Trail Running Specials now, as I don't know how much of this conversation happens in the NBA. Like, I don't know about, like, should this sponsor be backing things? They're like, they don't care. It's just like entertainment at the most ridiculous level. And I think even, you know, Jack's thing.

which is part of the progress of the sport. And I could see, in some ways, I still think that's a bit of that attachment to like the 2010s Western safe thing. The US still has a lot of that. It seems like so much of the sport is you make it racing in Europe. And then in the US, there's all of these FKTs. Like it seems like, I don't know, all of the biggest short distance races, most of the...

not most, but at least UTMB. It seems like so much of the high power racing is over in Europe, and the U.S. does have such a different culture. It is interesting.

Finn (47:05.347)
I just think both sides need each other. I think one thing, if you're gonna have the subversive, counter-cultural, organic F the man thing can only exist unless all of those things that they're rebelling against do exist. And that's what makes that whole scene so beautiful, that there is that present existing foil and vice versa, the fact that there is this environment where people can take it.

Dan Curts (47:08.086)
for sure.

Abby (47:22.566)
Hmm

Finn (47:31.995)
super seriously, super corporate, super financial, super like, let's make a living out of it. That can only exist if it's born out of the ashes or the vibrancy of that whole like countercultural thing. And I, like, I think as soon as one of the two dies, immediately the side that wanted that other one to go away, like laments that it's not there because life was not nearly as interesting. I think life is super interesting when you have

the exact opposite of all of your values and your worldviews, like staring you in the face and kind of like threatening you every single day. Like if you don't keep up what you're doing, we're gonna approach on you. So I'm always a huge fan whenever all of my haters and my enemies and all that kind of stuff are thriving and whatnot. Cause it's just like, you need that as inspiration. Like neither side wants to recognize that they get a ton of inspiration from each other. Sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but it's always inspiration, it's always fuel.

Dan Curts (48:25.294)
And that's why we need to see Jack race.

Abby (48:25.298)
This is either genius or Stockholm syndrome. Ha ha ha.

Jack (48:25.363)
That's why we got Dan in the Griff-cat.

Dan Curts (48:30.11)
And that's why we need to see Jack race at UTMB. I think that is part of everyone's interest, people's interest on that. Definitely not everyone, don't wanna get this to Jack's head because I'm sure, and everyone in, most people in Europe have no idea that there's a possibility.

Jack (48:41.461)
I

Jack (48:45.995)
We should...

Finn (48:47.543)
Well, and like this, Jack, I think this is a, this is a relevant question for you. As you have increased your notoriety in the sport, have you felt that it's harder to hold on to your natural inclinations and inspirations versus what you're getting in terms of feedback from the outside? Like, could you, do you still have these projects where like, you would do it even if you couldn't tell anyone about it? Or do you feel like increasingly your schedule is dictated by, uh, your environment?

Jack (49:17.131)
Uh, yeah. So when I was, when I was driving cross country, uh, every, so I've driven cross country a handful of times and every single time I do it, uh, I get about like the first day or the first half of the journey is always like really fun and then I get like closer to a mental breakdown, like the closer I get to like my destination and like every time I drive cross country, the mental breakdown just gets like moved up in the drive, like sooner to the start. Um, and so.

I was driving, I mean, this is gonna seem like a ridiculous analogy. But I was, well, I was, my vehicle was stopped and I was watching Netflix. And I watched, okay, I don't wanna like make it sound like I'm endorsing fucking Kanye here. Like obviously he's like an anti-Semite and like, you know, fucking a loon. But like

Abby (49:50.67)
It already does. Keep going.

Abby (50:08.93)
Oh man, where are you going?

Jack (50:12.341)
I watched like the Kanye documentary that's on Netflix and like you can see, I don't want to- it's really good! I really like it.

Finn (50:16.067)
Which was good by the way, which was good.

Dan Curts (50:18.446)
By the way, Jack is relating himself to Kanye at the moment.

Jack (50:24.175)
And, um, I, you know, I like, I watched it and, uh, I mean, I just, it kind of, you can kind of see how like the fame like destroyed Kanye and like me having, you know, a couple people in my Insta DMs, like obviously isn't the same, but like, I can see, I could kind of see like slight, slight similarities to where it's just like, it just stresses me out. It just like stresses me the fuck out.

having like people honestly care, which sounds horrible, but it's just like, you know, in many ways, I wish I still had like no following and I could just kind of just do whatever I wanted and like nobody fucking cared. And that was, I don't wanna discount that as a reason why I'm not doing UTMB next year, is I just didn't like the pressure and I didn't like feeling like I was living other people's vision and I didn't like, part of the reason I don't do races is because I kind of,

like to go with the flow and see what I'm interested in and see how training is developing. And I don't like the idea that I'm like, I'm like locking into doing UTMB and it was gonna like delete my, you doing UTMB and Dora was gonna really fuck up my ski season. So there are other issues, but yeah, no, it does stress me out. And so I basically, I watched this, you know, Kanye documentary and I just had this like massive epiphany in Nevada. And I was like, wow, like I am,

Like, you know, I don't, you know, at that point I was like, I really don't know if I should do UTMB. And, and yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. So to answer your question, I mean, yeah, like my calendar, I'm still trying to figure it out. Like the only things I know for sure are like stuff I'm trying to do in the spring. And then after that, I have no idea what I'm, what I'm doing with my schedule. I figure I'm still going to Europe, so I might as well just do a bunch of stuff in Europe. But yeah, I'm just going to kind of figure it out as I go.

Finn (52:19.147)
think environment is super important because I think baseline, I'm a corporate square, but the more that I like hang around or listen to you and Kyle talk, I like start to realize like, you know, that side's pretty cool too. So it's you got it, you got it, you got to pick your people super carefully. You know, you are the some of the people that you interact with the most. It's wild.

Jack (52:32.02)
Ha ha ha!

Abby (52:42.022)
That's Sage advice.

Jack (52:42.303)
I should really stop talking to Dan.

Finn (52:49.317)
Abby, do you have any thoughts on this subject?

Abby (52:52.958)
I think that Jack, yes, yes. Yeah, well, okay. The first, no, I'm not gonna roast you. Although it is tempting. Save those thoughts for later. The first thing I'm gonna say is you, and I think everyone when they experience their first taste of success, you think everyone cares a lot. People care a lot less than you think they care.

Jack (52:53.179)
Abby, do you know what I'm talking about there? What I just said? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Curts (52:58.178)
seems like a roast a little bit.

Jack (53:07.091)
Go for it.

Jack (53:21.915)
Yeah.

Abby (53:22.954)
The second thing I'm going to say is I think you could view people saying to you, Jack, you should do UTMB. We want to see how you line up against the best. You could just view that as a compliment of them admiring you as an athlete versus like prescriptive advice, because that's really what they're trying to say.

Jack (53:41.263)
No, no, I totally, I totally, I like, I'm honored that people say that. I totally view it as a compliment. And like the first time, the first couple of times people said that to me, I was like, wow, you like really think that, you know, I mean, here we like talk this shit up so much and I'm going to go to, I'm like, maybe someday I go to UTMB and just get like absolutely fucking spanked. But like the first couple of times, like.

Dan Curts (54:01.95)
Manitou flashbacks, you know?

Finn (54:05.38)
Not if you keep taking Tangat Ali supplements.

Jack (54:09.071)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right.

Abby (54:12.494)
I do think though, Jack, that you are a very unique athlete in the sense that you are probably the most high strung person that I know. And that's maybe the roast aspect of this conversation. And you seem to thrive as you're saying in this environment where you, cause you change your mind every five seconds. One day you're like, I'm going after this thing. I booked an Airbnb for three months, doing it. And then the next day you're like, nevermind. That was a terrible idea.

Dan Curts (54:17.983)
Oh my god.

Abby (54:42.198)
doing this instead. I'm gonna go do the StairMaster for seven hours and then you know, it's you're all over the place so

Dan Curts (54:48.578)
He's not high strung, he's just mentally unstable. That's the issue.

Abby (54:52.638)
Well, maybe both They go hand-in-hand perhaps but You're incredibly hard-working once you commit to a goal you see it through to the highest level possible as evidenced by the fact that you slept above 10,000 feet all spring while training for Denali and Rude and

Finn (55:07.063)
Yep, 100%.

Finn (55:12.608)
and turn down weddings.

Abby (55:18.406)
Though that skill set is really conducive to this test environment that you've created for yourself where you are in full control over when you go test yourself. And that is your beauty in my opinion as an athlete. And my perhaps small piece of advice is don't let the, and it's hard, but don't let the outside world take that away from you.

Dan Curts (55:44.238)
It's just hard. That's, that's not racing.

Finn (55:44.275)
Yeah, Jack, echo that Jack. You could never have another good accomplishment ever again. And I would only judge you based on your approach to everything, which I think is, like Abby said, super cool.

Jack (55:58.035)
sweet. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I know. I do really appreciate that. And no, there certainly are some like, other, you know, psychological stuff. I'm probably not acknowledging wordness. It is like a big it is a big, it's like a big control thing. Like, obviously, like, I mean, I had I had issues with like control and independence, like going into the Navy, and then like that traumatized me so much that I still probably have that lingering now. And part of it, maybe just like, I don't want to, you know, commit to doing it.

Abby (56:16.806)
Hmm.

Abby (56:26.342)
But everyone has different skill sets and you do have this incredible skill set of discipline. And I think it is beautiful that you found a platform where that really is able to shine. And I should be careful in how much I compliment you on this because it also does turn you into a little bit of a psychopath.

Jack (56:47.978)
Yeah. No, thank you.

Dan Curts (56:50.598)
It is just interesting because I think people in the... There's like two camps, it's like the FKT world has immense respect for all of that. But I think there's four people in the racing world. I think there's a lot of respect for all the times you've gone down, but in some people's heads. And like... I don't...

I think I've fallen into this because I know you probably better than most of these people do, but I think there's like almost an asterisk and I think they're still like, yeah, but what about a race? And I think it's just, I think that's interesting. But Jack does this for external things. He has all of his strawberry titles planned out for next like three years for any FKT he gets. This is not some-

Abby (57:28.11)
This is letting the external worlds though, like, who is Jack doing this for?

Jack (57:38.849)
No, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

Finn (57:39.651)
There is no spoon.

Dan Curts (57:41.49)
This is not some holy pursuit and Jack is not all that dumb color. He's like 10 pairs of $3,000 ski boots. That's not all that. It's some of it's, you know, some of it's for external validation. I do think that I think part of that is part of the sport.

Jack (57:57.54)
No, 100%. Yeah. I think it would be hard.

Dan Curts (58:00.522)
So I don't know. I would love to be able to talk shit on Jack's behalf once he goes to UTMB and crushes people, but like, I mean, that's why I wanted to go.

Jack (58:08.12)
Oh, thanks. Thank you, Dan.

Abby (58:08.654)
I guess my point is, and maybe this will actually motivate Jack to do UTMB, I think your skill set is so conducive to these types of FKTs that you're able to beat Killian on things that... I better be careful what I say here. It is a whole different world if you go to in a race format where you cannot control all of those variables. And I'm not trying to say you're not as good as Killian.

I, what I am saying is you are better perhaps than Killian or anyone else at setting your mind to these types of things and then checking every single box to make sure that you're going to be successful on that day.

Jack (58:36.099)
No, no, you're not, I'm, you know.

Jack (58:49.691)
Yeah, no, and this is this is something I think Dan kind of just said it, but he, he gets me on all the time is like, you know, the idea of racing is like, kind of trying to like having a specific date and then like working backwards and like building your preparation to it and like maybe racing when you're like a bit compromised.

Dan Curts (59:04.29)
No!

Finn (59:05.571)
Did we lose Jack?

Abby (59:06.347)
And Jack is frozen on the screen.

Jack (59:09.179)
I'm frozen.

Finn (59:09.227)
There we go. He's back. You're back.

Abby (59:10.478)
Now you're back.

Jack (59:12.227)
Okay, I was just so I think this is kind of what Dan was saying, but Dan always talks about which is kind of foreign to me this idea of like, you know, races just kind of fall when they do. And like sometimes you know, you go into a race and you're sick or you're not ready or you're, you know, not prepped in some way. And I mean, obviously, that's true with weather and FKT is but it is it is a little bit it is a little bit different. So

Dan Curts (59:36.366)
there's room for all though. Cause it'll be, it's always, it'll always be interesting to have the best people from the race scene like, oh I wonder what they could run on, you know, this route. And I wonder, you know, what Jack could do at UTMB. And I think that was what Finn was getting to earlier is that you kind of need both sides and they inform interest on the other side. So.

Jack (59:59.011)
I do wonder what trail running will look like in 30 years though. I do wonder like if it is inevitable that we will have like one championship race that everybody does. And I think if you have one championship race and you work backwards and you have a qualifier for it, I think that's where you, I think people will race less in the future. And if you have to qualify for a race, the two races maybe you do all year will be the qualifier and then be the main race. Because I do think that kind of like championship.

Finn (01:00:25.912)
Thank you.

Jack (01:00:26.891)
probably is inevitable, but I don't know what other sports have a... I guess like marathons have like the majors. So that's like four races each year that kind of...

Dan Curts (01:00:37.334)
It will be interesting. Alright.

Abby (01:00:37.574)
But you don't do every single one a year.

Jack (01:00:40.475)
Yeah, yeah, I know.

Dan Curts (01:00:41.603)
Yeah, check. Boom. Yeah.

Finn (01:00:42.839)
Dan.

got a question for you because I want to, as the, as the podcasters say, switch gears. What's it like showing up to a race, switching gears? You want to switch some gears? Let's switch it. Let's put a pin in that. Let's switch some gears. Dan, what is it? And I'll ask Abby and well, we, this applies to everybody, but to you specifically, what is it like showing up at a race with the knowledge or the, just the thought that

Abby (01:00:52.506)
Ben's like, I'm so sick of this discussion. Sorry.

Abby (01:01:00.454)
Thank you.

Finn (01:01:15.267)
probably people on that same start line that are doping. What goes through your mind? How do you still find the inspiration to compete, et cetera?

Dan Curts (01:01:24.466)
Yeah, I mean, I think that is a reality of, I don't know if you'd say life or life seems a little too grand, but sport, is that is that is a thing that's going on at some level. And it's always so tough because it's other than a few specific cases who, you know, people have tested positive in the past and are still in the sport.

those people instantly are like, yeah, I mean, I don't trust you, obviously. But then there's other people who it's just, you know, it's a, maybe it's a question mark. And it's, it is hard. I think you have to, for your own sanity, if you're racing is to just like, put it out of your head because you'd that will just give them these superpowers. And I do think maybe that's a specific piece to racing that might not be quite the same.

in the FKT world is you're just head to head in the same space. And if you're giving those people these like superpowers in your head, then you're losing to those people. And when you're sharing that space, I think it might be different than when you're out there solo on an FKT push. I never thought about that before just now, but it is interesting and it's hard to share the start line with any doubts like that. And so I think

for the most part, putting it on your head for racing and maybe just knowing that it's a reality of sport is there's not much to do about it other than calling for more harsher punishments and more testing. I'm not sure there's all that much to do.

Finn (01:03:11.395)
Do you feel it on every single start line or just certain start lines?

Dan Curts (01:03:15.288)
Yeah, certain start lines.

Dan Curts (01:03:19.778)
Certain start lines, not every start line. I'm not sure there's much more to expand on that.

Jack (01:03:27.778)
the golden trail there is there is post race testing for like the top three or something or

Dan Curts (01:03:33.578)
Testing's a generous word, I think, though.

Jack (01:03:37.359)
It's in competition testing right after the race or no, it's less than that.

Dan Curts (01:03:42.462)
I think there's post-race testing for certain people. But also looking at who's running this test and what the test really is, I don't think there's any, I would almost say there's no validity to that. Yeah. So it's hard, it's hard for me to then like, currently planning next year's race schedule, it's hard to then say, yeah, for sure.

Golden Trail. And it's the same idea, right? It's growing pains of a sport and it's like, do you want it back? You can be. It's like kind of the same thing. It's like, do I want to back Golden Trail and do that as my series for next year? Part of me.

Jack (01:04:21.553)
I don't think, I don't think...

Jack (01:04:26.015)
I was gonna say the I would say maybe the level of money in sky racing is lower. But I mean, I meant to check with Jackson Cole, but I know when Jackson did a race, well, I don't want to put words in Jackson's mouth. But I believe, okay, I mean, I wish I really fucking checked on this. But I don't think there was any testing at the sky racing series of races. And again, like, I think the in competition testing is like kind of a joke. And

Abby (01:04:47.398)
Thank you.

Jack (01:04:54.503)
you know, we really need out of competition testing because you could just dope and then it'll just be out of your system but the physical adaptations will still be there when you show up on the starting line. But it's just, I mean, it's just crazy. Like a lot of these races, the races will have prize money, Sky Racing, SkyRun World Series, they have prize money, but they don't have testing. And like, to me that would really stress me out showing up to the race. But yeah, I don't know.

Abby (01:05:03.118)
Right.

Dan Curts (01:05:21.774)
I mean, yeah, but that's true in all of this. The number of big road races with prize money that haven't had testing previously. There's a lot of it and it's hard to, it's tough because then, yeah, testing is expensive. And then even if there's testing day of, it's like you're not catching people doping a lot of the time. So, it is tough. And...

It's just a reality of sport. I guess that's. I don't know. I think there should just be, you know, I think lifetime bands and pushing as much testing as possible is the best thing.

Jack (01:06:05.243)
And I think one thing that I really didn't realize, and this is kind of a ludicrous story, but I know somebody who, for personal reasons, they were not competitive with anybody, it was really ridiculous that they did this, they did take EPO and they bought EPO, I mean, on the internet from China, and they spun their own blood, and they put up huge numbers and it-

wasn't fucking wasn't fucking hard like this guy is like not a doctor or something. So I think in my head like I always thought like oh, you know, you got to have like, you know, the you know, the postal sir, you know USPS, you know postal team, you know 2002, you know, like level of infrastructure, but it's like no it's like I don't even think it's that hard to do. I mean then that's just talking EPO. I think the only reason like this absolutely applies to FKT's too. I just there's like

Honestly, there's just one FKT that I'm like, slightly suspicious of, honestly, but I don't have any concrete proof. But other than that, like, I just, I know a lot of the players in the FKT space and I know the times they put down. And I'm quite confident that most FKTs are clean, but like 20 years from now, that could, you know, obviously be completely different. Cause there is no, I've discussed with like, fastest known time, some ideas maybe for like doping infrastructure, but it's just impossible, like without the money.

Um, so.

Finn (01:07:34.023)
Have you guys heard of this alternative to the Olympics called the enhanced games?

Abby (01:07:39.363)
No.

Dan Curts (01:07:40.598)
Yeah, I mean, what a terrible-

Jack (01:07:40.701)
Yes.

Finn (01:07:43.013)
Have you heard about it, Dan?

Dan Curts (01:07:44.286)
It exists. It's like the NFL dude. That's it's here and it exists.

Jack (01:07:47.212)
It's like the NFL.

Finn (01:07:52.212)
We'll link to it in the show notes, but there is going to be this, I think in the next five or 10 years, there's going to be this thing called the enhanced games where it's a new level playing field, but just everyone is free to use whatever drugs they want in the process.

Abby (01:08:03.527)
Oh no.

Dan Curts (01:08:03.598)
I bet they don't run fast, but I bet they don't run any quicker than what they run in the Olympics. 9.58 will be the 100 meter world record.

Jack (01:08:13.223)
That could mean a lot of different things. I think the funniest thing is like the only thing and I'm not, I don't want to make it sound like I'm endorsing doping, but like the only thing more unfair than doping is like the genetic. Yeah, exactly. The only thing more unfair than doping in my opinion is like the genetic lottery. It's basically like the genetic variance between people. I've only noticed this really in coaching, but like the genetic variance between people and how they, you know, take on training and

Abby (01:08:13.982)
It's great.

Finn (01:08:15.555)
Thank you.

Finn (01:08:23.112)
or Kanye.

Abby (01:08:29.681)
Yeah.

Jack (01:08:39.551)
just everything else is just, their ceiling is just so massive. And it's like, okay, the genetic lottery is half of it, but then a lot of the other half is just how you were raised as a kid. And it's like, what values did your parents instill in you? And how much did you exercise as a child? And it's just like so much of this stuff we don't have, when you're 18, so much is already like set in stone that you really can't change.

Abby (01:08:51.633)
Mm.

Dan Curts (01:09:03.99)
You're really alarmed at the genetic variance when we raised that last 200 meters that top of Mount Washington, aren't you? Just, things got alarming. Yeah.

Jack (01:09:10.284)
I had to tie my shoe. I don't remember what you're talking about.

Dan Curts (01:09:15.562)
Yeah, it's.

Finn (01:09:15.783)
Abby, what do you think?

Abby (01:09:18.522)
I mean, I get depressed pretty quickly thinking about how on meritocratic sport is on many levels starting with genetic variants, moving on to socioeconomic status, other lifestyle variables and then of course, doping. And it's a large reason why I just have no interest in making a living as an athlete. It just, you're...

gambling and playing in such a weird sphere, like competing against people that you have no control over. I much prefer the traditional working world where you get paid for doing a good job and you don't have to worry about those things. So I'm perhaps not the best person to ask.

Finn (01:10:01.059)
That's a good point.

Jack (01:10:01.675)
It's so funny, like, it's so funny. I'm just, FKT is that it gets simple to draw this analogy, but like a lot of times when I'm racing something, it's like whether or not I get the record. Like depends as much on my own preparation as it does on the other persons. And it's like, you know, like, let's say when I was like racing, you know, like when I was racing Denali and like, you know, it's like, okay, like how, like I'm my success today, determine is determined by like.

the genetics of like Carl Eggloff and Killian Jornet's parents. And it's like, I mean, what a thing to like, you know, not hinge your life around, but I mean, kind of like what a thing to care about. Kind of crazy.

Abby (01:10:39.854)
Well, and it raises this interesting question of assuming that we could somehow stabilize every single variable and everyone showing up to the starting line with exactly a level playing field. What are we trying to test? Like, what are we celebrating?

Dan Curts (01:10:51.822)
some weird Gattaca stuff going on now.

Jack (01:10:54.715)
Yeah, no, everyone would finish at the same time. Everything would be finished at the same time, if everyone's.

Abby (01:10:58.97)
Or if someone does win, are we celebrating that they have like more willpower? Like what are we?

Jack (01:11:04.787)
But that's genetic too. It's all genetic. Yeah, it's how you're raised. It's like the values you're raised with, you know? Like some people are just not raised to try.

Dan Curts (01:11:05.122)
That's generic as well.

Finn (01:11:07.143)
Is it? Willpower?

Abby (01:11:08.742)
Yeah.

Dan Curts (01:11:08.832)
Yeah.

Abby (01:11:12.758)
Well, okay. If we could, let me rephrase this. If we could isolate one variable and make that the variable that there's variance within everyone racing, what variable would that be? What are we trying to celebrate?

Dan Curts (01:11:30.722)
not contrived that it's just simple and that it's sport. Yeah, it's sport is great because it's simple. Like, I think the greatest sports are, I mean, I'm so biased, but like athletics, it's like, who is the fastest for 100 meters? Who is the fastest around this lap of this like FKT is like, who's the quickest around the lap of this lake or like to this summit back, but I think it's just not contrived and

Finn (01:11:31.793)
grit, resilience.

Abby (01:11:56.37)
So you're just celebrating them being the fastest. You don't care why they're the fastest. It's just they're the fastest. Good job.

Dan Curts (01:12:02.158)
Of course you do, but like, it's, you want to distill it down. Then yeah, I think, I don't know, that genetic, that genetic conversation is just almost like, what are we going to do about this? So like, next topic almost.

Abby (01:12:17.102)
Well, this is, I think actually to argue the exact opposite of you, Dan, and I obviously love endurance sports and that's all I've ever done in my life. But you could argue that team sports actually are the most exciting sports that we should be celebrating because they do involve all of these variables of teamwork, coaching, collaboration, et cetera, that are.

Jack (01:12:34.766)
Mmm.

Abby (01:12:44.258)
We should like those are things that we should be celebrating as a human race. And sport is this distillation of these values that we are trying to uphold.

Dan Curts (01:12:53.758)
Yeah, yeah, I'll celebrate the values I want to celebrate.

Jack (01:12:58.219)
What the fuck? Uh oh.

Dan Curts (01:12:59.591)
You know-

Finn (01:13:01.036)
I agree. Abby, I agree.

Jack (01:13:04.799)
I just think, well, and Finn, just to circle back what you said about grit and resilience, maybe I used to think that, but on my birthday this year, my parents showed me this film, my birth film, which they had never seen before. And my mom, of my birth, and my mom, after being in labor for 22 hours, she hasn't given birth yet, is crying to the camera.

Dan Curts (01:13:22.318)
Your birth? Okay.

Abby (01:13:26.983)
Wow.

Oh my.

Jack (01:13:34.483)
because she made it this big goal of hers to give a natural birth without any anesthesia or whatever. And she couldn't do it. They had to do a C-section. And she was crying because she was like, they gave her an epidural. And she was like, I failed. And it's like, what is wrong with this woman? But it's like, that's the same, whatever's wrong with her, I inherited it. So, I mean, I don't think it is, I either inherit it or that's the way that they raised me, my parents.

Dan Curts (01:13:52.168)
Yeah.

Jack (01:14:00.999)
So like, I don't think grit or resilience, none of that stuff. Like, oh, like someone can try harder than someone else, but it's genetic and it's, you know, it's nurture whether they can do that.

Finn (01:14:13.035)
I'm not quite sure I totally buy, I think I buy a lot of what you're saying about predetermination, especially on a physical level. I still think we don't quite know on the mental side of things, how malleable our upbringing is versus what we can learn in adulthood. And I think ultra running is a great example of a lot of people who are physically untalented, but are mentally super strong. And they've gone on to have a lot of success in the sport. And a lot of them,

Abby (01:14:37.962)
Yep.

Finn (01:14:41.587)
had pretty significant mindset shifts between like their early twenties and you know, maybe when they rose to prominence in the sport. So like they actually, a lot of them did have like upbringings where, you know, a lot of the values that we attribute to success in the sport were not present, they were not imbued with them. And like they changed face pretty dramatically in adulthood. So I'm gonna hold on to that.

Jack (01:15:04.747)
But I think it's because of... It's- it's- Ahem.

Dan Curts (01:15:05.078)
Jack... Jack, Finn is keeping the dream alive. Finn is keeping the dream alive and he will not lose any of his agency.

Finn (01:15:12.105)
As one of the people that is physically untalented in this sport, I am keeping that dream alive.

Jack (01:15:16.979)
Their minds were like fertile ground for the change to happen already. There was like already something in their mind where they're predisposed to that. And then there was like outside factors acted upon them. And then they evolved. I think that's, you know.

Abby (01:15:28.696)
Thus free will exists clearly no according to Jack

Dan Curts (01:15:32.523)
haha

Finn (01:15:34.639)
Yeah. What's the point of learning? What's the point of improvement? If that's the case, obviously people start from different starting lines. You know, I bet one person is a little bit more ahead than another, but I think we are to some extent left to our own devices and, you know, motivations to realize talents and people that are untalented can max themselves out and that can actually put them further in front of somebody.

Jack (01:15:40.531)
Well, so, okay, so, so I guess...

Finn (01:16:03.175)
even if it's just by a little bit, that is a starting line is farther ahead than theirs, but they just haven't worked at it hard enough. There's plenty of stories of people that are...

Dan Curts (01:16:10.19)
And that's why Jack was just on the stairmaster for the last seven hours.

Jack (01:16:10.357)
I think

Jack (01:16:14.159)
Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Right. Probably. So, but I think it's like when you.

Abby (01:16:17.49)
I mean, I think the counter-jack- oh, sorry.

Jack (01:16:22.047)
I was just gonna say when you really boil it down, there's like a bit of delay. When you really boil it down, like I think there is no way you can sit down and have like a long think about competition and come to the conclusion that competition between people is good. It's just not. It's like unfair. It's just riddled with so many fucking problems that the only competition that's valid is against yourself. And you know, it's just so hard to resist.

Abby (01:16:22.717)
Okay.

Abby (01:16:48.631)
exactly what I was going to say.

Jack (01:16:51.663)
It's okay. It's so hard to resist the competition with other people. And it's so compelling. Because like, I don't really know why. Maybe it's just because the way, you know, we exist as human beings, or the way like our media, you know, kind of builds up competition between people. But in so many ways, it's fucking pointless. Because, like everybody who shows up on the line at UTMB has like won the everyone who's, you know, in contention for the top 50 top 10, whatever, has won the genetic lottery for

this specific race, basically. So it's like we're selecting from a very small portion of the population, but I mean, there are some people, no matter how hard they try, that are even in the top 20, that won't win the race. And it's like, how do you square that? I don't, I don't, yeah.

Dan Curts (01:17:37.975)
No, that is not-

That is the antithesis to the point of sport. Also, I'm gonna leak two years of texts from you to that audio and it's gonna be like the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. No, like I think that's the antithesis of the sport.

Abby (01:17:52.082)
I mean, I think if you have Jack's perspective, you have to believe what Jack just said, which is it's about internal improvement and getting the most out of yourself. But again, team sports don't have this problem. And I'm not saying that Jack's right, Dan, by the way. I'm just saying that if you believe Jack's worldview, really the only outcome that won't drive you into madness is to believe in self-improvement and judging yourself against yourself.

Dan Curts (01:18:19.446)
But Jack is pursuing self-improvement for the... I don't know.

Jack (01:18:26.419)
No, 100%. I can make this argument theoretically, but I cannot live it. And I think the reason why racing against other people is compelling is because it's a standard of what someone else has done. And so it's like, it's hard, you know, if you go up and race, you know, Mount Shasta in a vacuum, like the time is meaningless, essentially, unless, you know, maybe you're racing it multiple times to improve and stuff, okay, that makes sense. But I guess that's why I guess competition against other people is...

I mean, I say all this shit and like I raised the grand and I'm like frustrated that I didn't, you know, I've missed the fucking time. But I would have said the same stuff then.

Dan Curts (01:19:02.826)
that doesn't have a GPX file and like it's just based on just because you know whatever there's all this stuff to it but to loop it back the point of sport is that I think to me at least is that improvement and competition and those things make you better in my opinion and if everyone is just allowed to be dumping there's no meaning to the improvement and that is the point it's hard work for improvement and I think there's just

Finn (01:19:24.515)
Thank you.

Dan Curts (01:19:31.426)
solid value in that. I know you think that, Tamp Jannik, you're being load-acress.

Jack (01:19:33.895)
No, that's valid. No, that's what I'm saying. I agree with that. I'm just saying using whether you're winning or losing as a yardstick of like success or not is just, I don't know. It's just winning or losing relative to other people is just impossible because you're handed, everyone's handed a hand of cards and I don't really know what to say. Like, those are the fucking cards you're given and everyone has a ceiling and that's it. I don't know.

Abby (01:20:02.81)
You have to play the cards you're dealt.

Dan Curts (01:20:05.059)
My hot tank is that phone that beats Jack at UTMB in 2028.

Finn (01:20:12.448)
All right. I want to be respectful of Abby's time because I know she's on the East Coast. It's getting late. I have two topics left that I want us to cover. Maybe we can spend about 10 minutes. I don't know why that just came up. I didn't press any button. Balloons just came up. If you're watching on YouTube, balloons just popped up into the screen. I have no idea what that was. It's like a riverside thing. Two questions that I want to end on and maybe we can devote is doing it again. The balloons.

Abby (01:20:18.886)
day.

Jack (01:20:23.091)
What the fuck was that?

Jack (01:20:33.83)
I need to try to do that.

Abby (01:20:36.178)
Amazing.

Finn (01:20:41.504)
All right. The first, I wanted to devote 10 minutes to this next question, and that is, it's multifaceted, but first, should we even be doing this podcast? For example, should we be talking about these issues? Should we be leading by example or both? Like we all have these worldviews about how we want to see the sport develop. What is the best way to change the things you care about? So, Abby, starting with you, how do you handle this predicament?

Abby (01:21:09.764)
about whether we should be doing a podcast or...

Jack (01:21:10.803)
Well, here, you know what? I can answer it, because I put this in here.

Abby (01:21:14.898)
Thank you.

Jack (01:21:16.303)
If Abby doesn't have anything, I can say something.

Abby (01:21:18.97)
One thing I want to say really fast, which is we started this podcast. This is technically the third time that we've recorded because Finn ate the second recording. Sorry, Finn, I shouldn't throw you under the bus. You're the nicest person here. Jack and Dan ate the second recording.

Finn (01:21:26.646)
Yeah.

Finn (01:21:34.547)
Riverside, we're blaming, let's blame it on software.

Abby (01:21:38.026)
Okay, we're blaming Riverside and Dan and Jack. Anyway, we started this podcast as giving like our very raw thoughts. I would say hot takes, but I've decided that the term hot takes is officially dead because it's been co-opted by those not willing to give hot takes, including ourselves because then we went on the second time and we gave lukewarm takes and I feel like we've just moved into like a much more philosophical direction.

Jack (01:21:38.354)
and then.

Abby (01:22:07.066)
this time, which I love. I think that's great. And we've resolved this issue of not giving or not spicy opinions to things.

Finn (01:22:16.555)
Let me say one thing quick. So, and this is, I'm going to, I'm going to tease our listeners and viewers. I was personally not capable of fixing the audio issues on trail T, the real number two, but that's not to say an audio engineer out there could take what I think are corrupted files and fix them. So let me just say there is a chance. There is a chance, not going to say it's going to happen that in January or February or March, this drips out into the feeds somehow because singletrack has been able to afford an audio engineer because we signed the deal with UTMB.

Abby (01:22:46.45)
Christmas miracle. Let's talk about that. I may have an audio engineer for you. I don't know if that answered your question or not. Should we be doing the podcast? I don't know. I have enjoyed the evolution of where we've come, but was that the question?

Dan Curts (01:22:47.359)
Yeah.

Finn (01:23:03.731)
Well, I'm sure there are people out there listening or watching that are like, they're all talk, no action, or they are backing up what they're talking about because they do XYZ in real life. So, I don't know, do you have any other thoughts in that area about like the validity of what we're doing? And, you know, what we're saying here today? Like, is there are we are we saying things that are either a beneficial or can be acted on in a proactive way? Or are we just

Abby (01:23:11.43)
Mmm.

Finn (01:23:31.991)
creating further chaos and confusion in the community.

Abby (01:23:35.858)
Probably the latter, but I personally enjoy listening to other people try to unpack philosophical questions that perhaps have no answer. And I'm not sure that any of the questions that we've been chewing on tonight have an answer other than whether Jack should raise UTMB or not. So we should let Jack answer next.

Jack (01:24:01.751)
Well, I think, you know, the purpose of a running podcast is you just have something to zone out to while you're running and you don't actually listen to it. So I think in that regard, we're accomplishing that mission. So the reason I wrote that is like so. So originally, this was like kind of based around like the enormous cast, like the climbing podcast, their taps episode where they kind of cancel things in the climbing community that they don't. Sometimes it's safety. Sometimes it's just kind of like cringe. And I've kind of come against.

Abby (01:24:10.866)
Mm.

Jack (01:24:31.475)
personally, I've kind of like, that was like the original kind of idea of this. And like, we've never really done that. But I have kind of come against that idea. Because I think like, I think calling people out and kind of like being aggressive, like you're never going to, you're just gonna like probably harden the sides. And it like feels good to like, kind of be kind of rude to people that you don't like, but like, it's not a way to actually accomplish anything. So I mean, I think that what this

Abby (01:24:55.078)
other than massive amounts of entertainment because we all love that episode of that podcast. So.

Jack (01:25:03.055)
Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah. No. So I mean, I think I think, you know, I, I think there's I think what this podcast evolves into is has been good. But, you know, I think the best way to kind of have your vision of sport or something went out is just to kind of just to kind of live that and set an example. And hopefully other people find it compelling or they think it's dumb and they, you know, it just dies off as it probably should.

Abby (01:25:32.038)
So the takeaways from Jack's points are one, Finn, your podcast is for people to zone out too and not listen. And two, podcasts actually have no point because everyone should just be out running and not talking.

Jack (01:25:46.887)
Oof. You nailed it.

Finn (01:25:49.435)
Harsh, probably true.

Dan Curts (01:25:52.782)
The reality is, Jackson Mendes' fame has gone to his head and he's no longer willing to have any hot takes. That's really what's going on. I don't know, what utility does this have? Does it mean to have utility? I don't know. I think it's good to have conversation about this part that isn't afraid of not being terribly polished.

Abby (01:26:00.622)
Yup, cosine.

Dan Curts (01:26:22.83)
bulk of the media. And I don't, you know, personally, I don't really like that as much. It doesn't feel...

Dan Curts (01:26:38.241)
I just don't identify with that as much. And so I think this is a space at least to have unpolished discourse. Hopefully it's at least not a negative.

Finn (01:26:51.875)
everyone's zigging all zag, I think that these episodes are incredibly important because I definitely believe in the power of ideas. I think ideas act like viruses in the way they travel. And I see all four of us here as merchants of ideas. And so at the very least we're putting a concept or a series of concepts in people's heads to consider. And consideration is like top of the funnel in terms of an idea. And so in that sense, I think there is power in these episodes. But

Yeah, obviously ideas are a dime a dozen and execution is the most important part. So if people like or want to see some of these ideas blossom, it's on them to help with execution.

Jack (01:27:33.423)
And on the execution note, that's why Finn's bringing his guillotine to France next year.

Abby (01:27:33.638)
Finn the Politician.

Finn (01:27:41.439)
I think if there's one takeaway, it's that almost all revolutions are created by people who already come from some sort of position of power. And that this idea of like the grassroots versus like a professional class or an elite class is just a fallacy and go study history.

Jack (01:27:41.476)
Anyways.

Jack (01:28:00.191)
gonna make you a merchant of idea t-shirt.

Finn (01:28:02.472)
I'm sorry.

Finn (01:28:06.519)
Um, all right. Very last one, because Jack, you mentioned it Norma cast. And, uh, I know that, you know, Abby and I both work in the trail running endurance media space. And I don't know, at least from my standpoint, probably you too, Abby. I'm always trying to get better at my craft and I'm always trying to be self aware of the limitations of what I'm doing and, you know, lack of creativity. And I think it was you or Dan that put this in here, Jack, like climbing media versus trail running media. And sort of like the bleakness of trail running media.

That could mean anything. It could mean films. It could mean articles. It could mean this podcast. Generally, why do you two and maybe you do as well, Abby, but like, why do you guys gravitate towards climbing media? What's the competitive advantage there? What's the attraction? What does it have that, you know, trail running doesn't

Dan Curts (01:28:54.106)
this one off because I was talking about this today and that's just what I was thinking on today. I think trail running fall is less in this category than road or track disciplines. And this actually stemmed from a talk about contract obligations, but it seems like for a lot of the Spartans, a lot of the athletes just kind of just

like for all followers. And I think that part of that helps sense running as a fitness path. And so those athletes are self-sustaining for people who are good at following rules. But I don't think that definitely doesn't lend itself to interesting media with a lot of character to it, I think. And yeah, I 100% listen to way more climbing podcasts or climbing

YouTube or climbing anything that I do running, which has completely changed in the last couple of years. It just holds my attention much better and it's a lot more interesting on the whole. I do obviously still engage in a lot of running stuff. I have my current thought on that and obviously it's a thought that's open to changing, but I think that's just some of it is that runners are self-selecting to be maybe a little more...

type A following rules and people pleasing and that doesn't necessarily lead to terribly interesting storylines.

Jack (01:30:32.243)
Yeah, I think to an extent we're comparing alpine climbing media. A lot of times the media is focused on alpine climbing to trail running. And I think a better comparison would be if there was a lot of competition climbing media, then that would be more analogous to trail running media. I think, yeah, when the focus is on performance and you just get a lot of people that are

Abby (01:30:51.472)
Yeah.

Jack (01:31:01.639)
you know, probably just like a little bit more square is kind of when it comes down to and up on climbing just as is, you know, it's dangerous. It does involve a lot of performance, but it just it selects for I think slightly different personalities. And I think that's exactly what Dan was saying. And that's probably fundamentally what the differences there. And then also, I think a little bit to climbing is climbing is I think it's a slightly more mature sport than trail running. And so I mean, at least you have climbing gold, which is a

is, you know, obviously you have Alex Honnold, who's like a massive celebrity. You know, he was featured in a film that won an Academy Award. There is no film about trail running that has won an Academy Award. And so he has this huge star power and he has a highly produced podcast, which does not exist in trail running. So.

Finn (01:31:49.827)
I guess like, like Jack, you're a totally different breed in the trail running, mountain running space. Like there isn't really someone that I could compare you to as having a similar style of expression. Where does that come from? Like where, like how did you decide on how you wanted to present yourself in the trail space? Cause I've always said that you, even though you do increasingly feel constraints on what you do and don't say and what you do and don't race and how you train you.

have always seemed to me more free, more uninhibited than most people. So I'm curious why that is. Why is that your default mode?

Jack (01:32:28.755)
Uh, I don't, I don't really know. I think, I think I care about presenting myself that way. So that's, that's certainly, that's probably part of it. Uh, I, but I, I'm, I'm not sure. I think, I think part of it is, you know, uh, there've been a couple issues and like UTMB is kind of one of them where I've, I felt the need to kind of like speak out in some capacity and I think that's, I mean, I think fundamentally it's like, uh, it's an ego, it's an ego thing where.

I think I'm just like not okay just being a runner. Like I feel like I have to like contribute some other sort of value. And so that's what the way I try to contribute. I think that's probably where some of it comes from. And some of it is just kind of like, like an anti-authority thing and like, you know, a nonconformity thing where I just kind of want to probably be unique, I imagine. But I don't.

Dan Curts (01:33:21.738)
I do think part of the pipeline towards, you know, in running is that you are following a coach very tightly in high school and college and middle school. I think part of that does just weed out, okay, go ahead. Now she's waving herself. I do think that just weeds out super anti-authoritarian people in some ways. I think it's just like all this complicated.

selection process that's down there. I do.

Finn (01:33:54.059)
That's a good point. Yeah, like there's not really many climbing programs in high schools that I'm aware of and these people are kind of born into this space where they have to create their own meaning, create their own environment. Typically they have to leave a place that they were from to go to another place and make this pilgrimage to like Yosemite or whatever. I don't know. That's what I've observed. So I don't know if that's part of it. Like there is that.

Jack (01:34:18.119)
Well, I think I was gonna say, I think part of it is like climbing. The culture got started in the seventies and it was very, you know, or before that. But like the culture at first was very counter cultural, counter kind of like cultural and, you know, kind of like, uh, you know, I mean, it's always been kind of like a resistance sport almost. It's, it's always been kind of on the fringe of society where it's like running. It's like, Dan wasn't good at dribbling the basketball in elementary school. And so he started.

He started running because he still wanted to be competitive. So, I mean, I think it's just like fundamentally the culture has been set up from the beginning different. And it's like just what you said, like the people it attracts are going to be. Yeah, climbing is it's changing now, I think, like, you know, with the popularity of gym climbing, it's becoming much more mainstream. It will be interesting to see what the culture looks like in, you know, 15, 20 years. Once like the gym generation is like really grown up.

Dan Curts (01:35:13.634)
Out of general insecurity, I would like to correct the record on my athletic ability outside.

Jack (01:35:21.107)
That's it. You just like to correct it, but you have nothing to say.

Dan Curts (01:35:25.989)
If you say too much, then it looks bad.

Jack (01:35:29.472)
Right, yeah yeah.

Dan Curts (01:35:30.418)
I was gonna pass.

Dan Curts (01:35:35.53)
Abby, what are your takes? I don't know. I think you have a.

Abby (01:35:39.842)
Okay, I have two thoughts. One is climbing the anomaly here or is just running the anomaly because of what you all are saying, which is that running attracts these hyper type A boring people.

Dan Curts (01:35:54.73)
I didn't go that far. This seems somewhat strong. I don't know. I think part of it too, it's like, it's interesting. It's like so many, and this could be the way other things are written too, but it feels like a lot of people I know with contracts for running, you're on the back foot. And like, you have to make sure like, you're afraid to get dropped and you're afraid to do all of these things as opposed to, like it's another concept of that, like agency is not in their hands. It seems like they're

setting their appeasing sponsors and then that's the goal instead of like with climbing so much of the media is can be like self produced and And therefore just kind of cool because they're free to do the thing they think is cool. Um, I didn't think there's a lot more comp-

Abby (01:36:42.726)
So by media, are we talking about, we're talking about professional athletes, oh, and social media and YouTube and TikTok, whatever.

Dan Curts (01:36:51.11)
or at least professional athletes or professional, like, aspiring professionals, I think especially aspiring professionals.

Abby (01:36:59.206)
But we're talking about content that they're producing themselves, not like the media. As in what Finn is doing or professional media sites. Okay.

Dan Curts (01:37:09.59)
I mean, just stop surrounding them, right? Like, if we're talking about media about elites, then they're afraid to say certain things. And I don't know if I think it's all of that is applicable. I do think climbing does a good job of self-producing a lot of media. I mean, so many of the top climbers have their own YouTube channel, and that's like fairly commonplace.

Finn (01:37:34.099)
This is this is and again this conversation is the reason why I had that I felt strongly Against UTMB for the current situation because in a way I felt like there was a downstream effect of just like stomping out any Further interesting speech in the sport like this is an example where if someone does say something Which really wasn't even that controversial to begin with like if they get asked for that Then people will start to get super protective and insular around their

maybe their sponsorships or how they interact with race directors and stuff like that. Like, I just think it sets a super dangerous and selfishly like an unimaginative precedent for like how people operate moving forward. Like it's just a cold place. Um, so

Dan Curts (01:38:18.134)
Yeah, it's interesting. I think that's fair. I would also say like climbing, so many of the climbers had huge disagreements with the formatting of climbing in the Olympics and they still took part. And I think you can disagree with the thing and still, I don't know. I do definitely agree with the thing.

Jack (01:38:18.852)
That's really interesting.

Finn (01:38:43.787)
All right, guys, this has been an awesome conversation. Much appreciated as always. Like I said, if we can afford an audio engineer for the future, or if people just wanna do it out of the goodwill of being long-time listeners of the show, hit me up, finnett, singletrack.run. Because I thought it was unfixable. Yeah, this is, yeah, the second house budget. But like, we could be graced with not, this could be Trail T3. Right now it's Trail T2, it could be Trail T3. So.

Abby (01:38:44.828)
Oh.

Jack (01:38:59.315)
This is coming out of the second house budget.

Dan Curts (01:39:02.53)
Ha ha!

Finn (01:39:13.591)
Anyways, this has been awesome. Abby, Jack, Dan, thank you so much. I think we'll let's just do one kind of roundtable thing. Abby, any final thoughts from you about anything?

Abby (01:39:22.81)
Well, I did say I would give two points when we were talking about running media and why it's boring. And so really fast, my second point, I listen to consume a lot of traditional sports media, like big ball sports. And those are also really fun and dynamic, the personalities in those sports. And one question I've been wrestling with is, are those sports more exciting because...

Football players know that they're entertainment and they are there to provide entertainment. It is a spectator sport when we're talking about at the professional level versus running, which continues to wrestle with this participation side spectator side and professional runners are kind of caught in the middle of that where a lot of them seem to be trying to serve like their audience are the participants.

And so the audience are also quite self-absorbed in their own running. And does that somehow reflect back on the pros and how they present themselves?

Finn (01:40:22.964)
Yeah.

Finn (01:40:30.531)
Excellent point. Yeah.

Dan Curts (01:40:33.518)
that um I think this would be the last thing I say um on the way back from like yeah I just got back from Thailand so on the way back I sat next to this guy um from India who's a software developer and he makes games and so his we started talking somehow about running like as an idea and we talked about like contracts and how would you self market and all these things and basically his point was we started talking about this conversation but he was saying that you know obviously his job is to make the best game possible

But if he doesn't market it in any way, and him and three friends play it, that's such a loss. Like, four people play the game. And so it's interesting, because I think so many runners get lost in, like, having the best race possible, but then there's no marketing, and so then people somehow don't care about it. And I think, in a lot of ways, that's what climbing has done, is they had to, so recently, had no way to make money. And so I think so many of the climbers are gonna put themselves to, like,

find a way to make money and part of that is self-promotion. I think runners tend to do a very bad job of that because some of the shtick is that you should just get paid for running and if you're good at running then you should make money and I think that is something we're watching change. A lot of those terrible runners who are influencers are making money, which I think is ridiculous but it's also that is why you

or people with this, try to remember this, because it's just...

Finn (01:42:07.719)
How about you Jack, any final thoughts?

Jack (01:42:10.552)
No, I don't have anything. That's it. Nothing.

Finn (01:42:11.923)
Nothing? What?

Finn (01:42:18.359)
All right. I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

Jack (01:42:23.523)
Yeah, sorry. I'm actually launching my own podcast. Not actually. That's where my final thoughts will be.

Abby (01:42:29.736)
Jack has officially bonked from his seven hour StairMaster workout.

Jack (01:42:36.039)
Ugh... Nah, nah.

Finn (01:42:37.311)
All right, you guys are awesome. This was trail tea number two or three. Happy new year, happy holidays. Thank you, all three of you. And to the audience, we'll see you at some point in the new year, 2024.

Abby (01:42:49.318)
Thanks, Finn.

Jack (01:42:49.355)
Thanks, man.