Sam Parsons | The Trials And Tribulations Of Professional Running

Finn (00:01.69)
Sam Parsons, it is a pleasure to have you back on the Single Track Podcast. How are you doing today?

Sam Parsons (00:07.086)
I'm doing good man, glad to be back. I really should have rewatched the last episode to make sure I don't repeat and say the same stuff but I'm honored to be a returning guest here.

Finn (00:16.902)
Well, I got a recap for you. It's well, I mean, it's been two years and I feel like in this day of age, that's an eternity and a lot happens, but yeah, to recap the previous episode is about two years ago, we talked about the formation of the team, sort of the ethos of getting after it in your twenties and thirties, creating your own opportunities in the sport, building a brand around your team, uh, being kind of specific, sort of having like a specific goal. Like

Sam Parsons (00:17.678)
It's been a while, you know, it's been a while.

Finn (00:44.338)
I think you mentioned like the Nike Oregon project. They were there to win medals. You guys having a similar goal of like sending guys to the Olympics. And then we talked a lot about like the content side and how you'll meet on like Mondays and stuff to schedule things. It was fun. I mean, it was a great, I really appreciated your insight into the world. I think there was a lot we didn't cover, which is why I wanted to run it back today. The one thing I will say, we still don't have an ultra trail running specific.

co-located team in the sport yet. So that was, I think one of our predictions last episode, there are like some hybrid teams out there, but there's nothing co-located. It's not specific to ultra trail. There's no one out there that's saying like, we were built to go win Western States or when UTMB. So there's still this like open window.

Sam Parsons (01:28.21)
How cool would that be? Isn't that nuts? That's crazy to me. How are these brands not all in on one thing?

Finn (01:32.518)
Hoke never did anything, apparently.

Sam Parsons (01:35.914)
You know what I mean? It's like, it's, I don't know, just like with track being so specific with like, yeah, we're gonna like, like you said, like we're gonna build this team to win medals, you know, and hyper specific, you know, it's like, you know, it's even, even in running, it's crazy how it's like, I mean, I guess you could say like BAA, it's like, hey, we wanna, I don't even know if it's a part of their mission statement, it's like win the Boston Marathon or not, you know, but crazy that there wouldn't be even just like a one-off

project even if it's not like a long-term thing like a Seems like a Red Bull in the o's like these guys. It's such a no-brainer to be like hey like here's a two-year lease let's get the best guys and young guys and train them to Just mess everyone up

Finn (02:22.082)
Yeah, so there exactly there's still an opportunity. There's gonna be some people that's gonna like we have a team, but it's hybrid and it's not focused on one specific goal. So yeah, there's still a huge opportunity. Um, but dude, what's it's been two years. W like talk about the last two years in terms of wins and losses. So like what's changed the most. What do you see as wins? What do you see as losses where you at?

Sam Parsons (02:45.917)
Man, it's crazy how cyclical things can be in life and in sport. You see in fashion, baggy pants come back, tight pants, whatever it may be. So I do think that I see these cycles in my career happening.

like where there's this youthful ignorance and then there's this come to reality moment and then there's this success and then there's come to reality moment and then there's this youthful ignorance all over again about what I could potentially achieve just on a whole different scale. So man, made a world final, made a few more world teams, that's always amazing to represent the country on the largest stage possible.

I made a world final, fell in my face at a world championships, quite literally, hit the deck. So first time ever falling in a race like that. And I put so much mental energy to the point where it just became just utterly toxic. Like the sport became so toxic to me just to get to this place where I got to the world championships through just pure...

Finn (03:53.651)
Really?

Sam Parsons (04:02.626)
stubborn will and dedication to the craft while completely losing all those little glitz and glamour stuff that runners love to say at this level, even though it's partly true but partly BS because of how serious everyone takes it, where it's like, just have fun, enjoy the process, all that stuff. It's like, yeah, enjoy the process, but if I'm not having my head up against a cement wall today getting this done, I'm not getting it done on the day it matters.

There's quite, and I think that's in any professional sports. So you try to find the pockets of fun when you can, but more often than not, I think when the windows are closed and it's just you versus you in those moments, there's a lot more toxic energy than people want to really address and put out there in the open. And I certainly experienced that head on to the point where I really got to the point this past year where I was like, man, why the fuck do I do this? Is this worth it?

Am I actually having any fun? Like we had just our, the culture on the team, which is something I've always just held to such a high regard, seemed to completely slip through the cracks with just people just dragging their feet to practice, not wanting to be there, losing the lack of faith in the coaching staff. We had a huge revamp of the team. You know, there's so much we...

need to catch up on. I knew I'd just throw a lot at you there, but it's been a lot of growth, a lot of pain, you know, like everything in life that's worth doing and pursuing. So I'm very, very fortunate to be in a healthier, I'm not going to say like healthy state. I'm very happy to be in a healthier state now where I can like approach running in a less

Sam Parsons (05:53.966)
I keep saying the word toxic and I wish I had a better vocabulary but just in a more healthy way.

Finn (06:01.206)
It seems like when you think about like the hero's journey, you're in the belly of the beast phase of the hero's journey. And you're about to return back to the common people with some amazing insight.

Sam Parsons (06:07.698)
Yeah, in the cave in Beowulf, yeah. Yeah, I like that. I'll take that, I'll take that for sure. I definitely think it's like when you first start in the sport, you know, there's this kind of like youthful wave, anything you do is just amazing. It's like, oh, this race would be cool, this race would be fun, like great learning experience, you know, and then there's okay, but now I actually want to get it done. And then there becomes another point in like any professional running career where it's like, okay, like.

now you're a veteran, you have things to maybe rest your head on, like rest your head on and say I did this and this and this and you know like if you were to tell me you know four or five you know in 2018 when I was just starting my professional career like I'd be a national record holder, I'd have this and this and sub four all these things you know that I never could have dreamed on and like I'm a huge big dreamer you know but never would I have thought.

I would have been able to accomplish the things I have in my career because of my amazing coaches and teammates and the support I've had along the way. But I'm still just utterly unsatisfied with what I still want to achieve and I think that just comes down to most professional people's mindset that are just hyper crazy competitive and unfortunately like I was referring to before, there's quite a dark side that comes at that.

never being complacent and all that.

Finn (07:36.526)
What is the, I don't want to say best, but what is the most satisfying answer you've come up with so far for why it's still worth it to build this team and work on your athletic career?

Sam Parsons (07:49.534)
I don't want to say it's because of legacy and ego and narcissism at this point. I really hope that's not the case. I think the thing that motivates me the most, and I just couldn't be... We have this huge new injection in life in the team specifically. We signed five new runners, men and women, two women right out of college, which is something that I feel like I've been talking about wanting to do since the inception.

was so hard to recruit women and get them to buy in. The motivation, to answer your question, the motivation comes from knowing that my years here within this sport are coming to an end. This is the final chapters. I am not going to be the running journeyman that's setting Masters records or doing all that.

or pursuing it well into their 30s. I don't think my girlfriend would accept that lifestyle, just because she knows the wear and tear it puts on me. And you know, I wake up every morning in pain to some degree and that's most professional runners, I'd say. And the thing that motivates me is wanting to.

Finn (09:02.663)
Really?

Sam Parsons (09:13.11)
Wanting to watch this thing, like I don't want this to be just another track club that popped up and was like a cool thing and then just disappeared because of a lack of funding or a lack of sponsorship or the coach left, you know, it's like we've weathered so many storms now with like the firing of a coach, you know, and then dealing with that shit storm that happened after that, you know, with people leaving to feeling like the whole team is injured to.

what happened this past year with seemingly our core group of people leave the team. I just want to see it live past me. I want to be into my 30s and I want to be watching Elliot Kipsang and Anthony and Antonio and all these guys ripping it and running with the same pride I had for something that was hopefully greater than just them. And that's the biggest.

the best motivator right now and our contract with Adidas is up in 2024 after this year and we kind of have this like big team. We just had a big team retreat and big summit where we kind of all came together. It's like, look, like we're all chasing this team contract together, you know, now it's not just like one person trying to get their own contract. It's like, how can we all perform up to a level to gain the attention of Adidas to resign this? Or if Adidas doesn't deem us valuable enough to resign, then...

you know, pursuing other options if it has to come to that.

Finn (10:38.706)
Did I hear you say earlier that there is a there's a dark side to never being complacent or a dark side to discipline? Is that what you were saying earlier? Talk and talk more about that.

Sam Parsons (10:46.994)
Yeah, oh, absolutely. Um, you know, like, I think there's a dark side to never being satisfied. You know, it's like, it's always on to the next thing. And I think that's the mentality you have to have in this sport in order to constantly be a shark, you know, because, um, if you want to swim with the sharks, you know, you have to be one yourself. And, um, the minute you get thrown into a new pool, you have to...

all the sudden like fight for your own and fight for that chum bait or whatever it is that's at stake in order to continue to survive and in our case it's millrose games this weekend and the next weekend it's a boston five k and then it's the you know oslo diamond league and then it's the national championships you know it's like you're constantly fighting uh... for your own survival in the sport to put it in a more like prehistoric way uh... and

the minute, if I were sitting here and said, oh yeah, I've done this or I've done this, I'm gonna race great this weekend. I'm gonna lose every little piece of fish that comes my way, you know? Because there's someone else that hasn't accomplished that yet or there's someone else that has a more defined competitive spirit where they don't care about what they did before. And it sucks, that sucks, you know? Because...

People tell you all the time, enjoy the process, have fun, find fulfillment after every race, reflect and do all those things. All that stuff is so important, but you need to find this balance which is seemingly impossible without being incredibly, and this is where the darkness comes in, being very hard on yourself.

on to the next thing, nothing is ever good enough. You know, it's like, you know, I had a conversation with Joe Klecker recently about this where it's like, he had an amazing year last year, you know, like he was running sub-13 5Ks every other weekend at these Diamond League races, competing with the best runners in the world, and then going to USAs and qualifying for, you know, outside of maybe like an Ethiopian 10K team is just about the hardest team to make out there, you know, against, you know,

Sam Parsons (13:09.106)
and Woody and all these sharks and qualifying for a world team. But then he ran like shit at Worlds and he'll say that to himself, you know? And that's what he lives with now. He's thinking about that race, you know? And that's driving him, you know? And I'm sure that it's hard for him, just as it is for any runner, to just look at, to not look at the sum of things, but it's just, what have you done for me lately? What is the last thing you've done, you know? So it's this constant state of like...

Finn (13:10.267)
Yeah.

Sam Parsons (13:39.074)
battling enjoying it while Keeping your killer instinct in order to continue to compete at the highest level

Finn (13:47.318)
You said sharks there and like the killer instinct in your experience, because you've been right up there at the very top of the sport. Is it that rare combination of talent plus monomaniacal focus slash insatiable fire is like in the latter part of that, like the difference maker.

Sam Parsons (14:05.446)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, yeah. And then I think you have like the and then I think you have that. I think that what you just said, you know, all those qualities is what like a true veteran in the sport is, you know, it's like those are people that make it. Those are people there year after year after year. It's not just a flash in the bucket where, wow, they had an incredible season and they're there this one time, you know, because they were enjoying it and they.

were just living in the moment and they were just like had this youthful ignorance like I was saying before where it's like The world is their oyster they can do no wrong might as well go out there And you see that year after year where everyone's cheering on this like rookie or someone that just came on to the scene like I think about like Niels Loris like the Netherlands kid last year who made the 1500 meter final who like I'm watching him in these heats and it's like Okay, this 18 year old kid or whatever, you know is like

he made like he made past the first round and he had this crazy last 100 meter kick but surely he can't do it again and then he made it to final and then in the final I'm like surely he's not going to have the kick again and he's just positioning himself perfectly in these races and I can only assume that it just comes from him being so naive in what he's actually doing that he's just free to run you know and there's and there's so much beauty within that where next year

he's gonna then think about, okay, how did I do that? How do I do that again? How do I get to that point in fitness? And all those factors start pouring in again. So yeah, you need to have the full package to make it. And I think that most people in the sport like lack one or the other, whether it's like they can really enjoy it, or they'll be not competitive enough to...

you know, never give up their spot, you know, and then they miss the final because of that, because they're afraid of falling. You know, I look back at the moment when I fell in the race, I was moving out, you know, like it was 600 meters to go and I started to move out. And usually when you fall in a race, you basically automatically get pushed to a final, you know. It's like, it's this like, it's honestly a joke amongst professional runners that it's like, hey, if you're not going to make the final, like you better at least fall, you know.

Sam Parsons (16:26.122)
because then you might get a shot, which sucks that that's like the culture that is jokingly within that world at the international level. And when I fell, I immediately jumped up and started sprinting again because I thought I would have a chance at making it, regardless because of how good I felt before and the adrenaline I just went fully lactic and I was like, whoa, I'm done. But

regardless, I was not complacent in that moment to just stay inside and be boxed in. I moved out and at the same time the Kenyan in front of me moved out just enough and that one inch of I need to move out and push some people even though there's not a spot open because if I don't take this opportunity now, I'm going to get swallowed up by everyone else coming by me.

and his foot came back and simultaneously as my foot came forward and as it was trying to land his foot swaying back and just BAM! And I just fell. And I had no idea how it happened and I just assumed, like I felt like an idiot, you know, when I was getting interviewed by the German media afterwards. I was like 100% it wasn't my fault. Like I literally said that, you know. I was like I didn't do any, like I moved out and then like I assumed he tripped or forward or someone clipped me from behind. Like it happened in such a moment's notice that.

Before I knew it, I was eating the track and had Stewie McSway quite literally chapping his shoulders in my back or his knees in my back.

Finn (18:03.958)
to go back a little bit earlier, you were saying like you're in your late 20s, you look great, but you're waking up every single day or a lot of days in pain and you're conscious of your timeline. You just said you don't want to be this running journeyman. When I listen to that, I have even more respect for like the Bernard legats of the world and like the Garret Thomas and like the Garret Thomas's in cycling. I'm just like, you guys are like, and it makes the whole decade of your 30s that much more like mystical to me. I'm like the fact that these to know what's required in your 20s

Sam Parsons (18:21.299)
Oh my god.

Sam Parsons (18:30.774)
Totally.

Finn (18:33.97)
but then to be able to do that again in your 30, it's just, it's insane.

Sam Parsons (18:37.726)
Yeah, I'm reading the book now, Open, by Andre Agassi. It's his autobiography. And he does an amazing job at depicting, sorry, not depicting, writing and articulating through his words what it really feels like to wake up in the morning. And it's these moments before you wake up where there are these like,

awful moments of like, how am I going to feel? How is my, in his case, his back, how is his back going to feel? And he knows that the first moment of him getting up is going to be this moment of doubt and agony. And agony is an extreme way to put it. Maybe for him at times it was, but he was getting cortisone shot, cortisone shot in his back in order to continue his career. And he says himself, he hated the sport of tennis.

hated it. The thing that he quote-unquote loved, devoted his life to, he hated it. And I feel like that is the relationship that you can have in the sport when you do push yourself and give everything to it is it ends up taking so much to the point where you can hate it. And yeah, you know, like I've this whole, like when I was saying how toxic it was for me to get to the World Championships, like to do a quick timeline is basically like

I came off an indoor season, you know, 13, 12, six at European indoor nationals, and then just feeling like I'm ready to light the world on fire outdoors. And that was just the starting point for that year, you know? And I had an Achilles flare up after just getting some stupid cross-friction massage on it when I shouldn't have done that.

and it blew up like a balloon and it took forever to get the swelling out and get back. So then I was playing catch-up, going to outdoor season, pushing myself, not having the base under me, but doing these VO2 max workouts, knowing that's what I needed to do to get back into the fitness level. I needed to compete at this level. And it was just a constant game of like catch-up and knowing that my body's not at 100% but still competing at a high level.

Sam Parsons (21:03.602)
Man, to push your body when you know you shouldn't can be just...

so draining, you know, to every capacity where it just consumes everything, you know, even doing mundane tasks. Like if you would have asked me to do a podcast, you know, eight months ago, I would have told you to, you know, fuck off, you know, like I don't have time to reflect or talk to, you know, someone else right now about like, how you doing, you know? But, you know, like I'm in a great place now and like the pains in the morning are minimal.

and that's a great thing. But yeah, you know, it's like you wake up in the morning and you're like, how, like, I'm supposed to do what today? I'm supposed to do this workout today? And then, you know, you warm up, the legs wake up and all that stuff that, all those muscles that are telling you to stop, you know, all of a sudden feel great. And then you can get it done that day. So it's just that cycle. So yeah.

Finn (22:05.214)
Do you think your 80-year-old self would back you up for having punted your 30s athletically?

Sam Parsons (22:14.859)
I hope so. I hope so. Like I'm certainly going to do a lot of cycling when I'm done running. I have always said that I want to run a beautiful marathon. I don't know if that's something I said in our last podcast two years ago, but I think that I don't want to use the word judge, but

Finn (22:30.31)
No, no.

Sam Parsons (22:39.722)
when I see a runner go through their whole career and they just run 1500s or they just do 800s or they just do 5Ks, you know, I just, you are a great 1500 meter runner, you know, but to be a great runner in my definition, you need to be able to do everything. And that's why I, you know, I'll be the eight-year-old man always saying, and partly because I got to compete with him so much and get to know him.

and is like, Jacob is the greatest runner of our generation. You know, obviously Kipchoge also in that same boat because they do everything. And in Kipchoge's case, he did everything, you know, like maybe to the everyday runner, people think of Kipchoge and they just think like, oh yeah, the master of the marathon. You know what I mean? No, no, he's the master of running because he beat Mo Farah head to head in three Ks indoors. You know, he ran at the World Cross Country Championships. You know, like.

He did everything, you know? Competed at the world stage in 5Ks, you know, global medals in the 5K. Like, that's the Kipchoge, like I know, from watching those races and studying those races and seeing him do that same smile that is now famous when he broke the sub two hour mark, you know, with two miles to go or whatever. It's like, I saw him do that in the 5K, you know? 10 years earlier. And...

Jakub does everything. He doesn't shy away from any competition. He runs European cross-country championships and I'm sure he'll run an amazing marathon one day. I think he'll probably break the marathon world record one day. I put zero limits on that guy. No, absolutely. I think Jakub, if you wanted to right now, maybe not right now, but he's just dealing with an Achilles issue and probably dealing with the same thing I deal with where you wake up every morning and you're like...

Finn (24:15.89)
Yeah, really.

Sam Parsons (24:32.918)
this sucks because he has pushed himself so hard. But 5K world record, 10K world record, I think it all translates and you'll be able to run, you know, 445 or whatever it is, 440 pace or 430, what is it? I think you'll be able to do it. But I wanna be known as a great runner. That's what I wanted to finish with. I wanna be known as a great runner because I did everything, you know, and I wanna run a marathon and

Finn (24:53.172)
Well, okay.

Sam Parsons (25:03.49)
whatever that means to me, beautiful, then I want to do that. So certainly something on my bucket list. Is it going to be in a professional capacity? Probably not. Maybe a brand gives me the opportunity to represent them in that way. But if I'm working full time and doing it, then I'll still do that. But other than that, yeah. And obviously Olympian, I still got to do that. Ha ha.

Finn (25:26.718)
Is it fair to say that in the next one to two years, one of the objectives is to create something with Tin Man Elite where the team could live past you if you were to step aside?

Sam Parsons (25:38.438)
Right, and that's kind of what I was talking about before, is I think recruiting all these new runners that are 23 years old, that have full of life in their eyes and want to do every race possible. That's the start of it, bringing on new sponsorships in order to sign another four-year deal, in order to see it outlive me and to create in a way. Like right now, we are sustained very much through like...

our sponsorships through Adidas and Coros, and those are our lifebloods in order to like support our athletes from like a monthly standpoint. And then our product then is able to support everything in terms of bonuses and when we can sell product well, that means more money in the pocket for our athletes to pay out at the end of the year or whatever we can possibly do.

You know, like we're building out our running camp more and more, like Reed is taking the reins on that. We had like a nice soft launch this past summer with about like 30 kids, um, for like four days. And we might do like across two weeks this year. Um, and just finding those ways to, you know, find sustainability is so important. And there's so many different routes that you can take to find that, whether it's through individual donors, which, you know, we have one of those now also.

that helped us launch our women's team and through sponsorships, through these organizations. But it's a never-ending process and I think the people that are willing to hustle for it and put in the time and effort, it's easy to talk about all this stuff. As you know, with your podcast, it's easy to say you're going to release an episode weekly and maybe at the start it is easy because you're three episodes ahead or whatever but then all of a sudden like...

getting a guess is hard, you know, and then finding someone else is tough, you know, and then figuring out what's the next conversation that will engage people, you know, and like constantly challenging yourself to continue to think through things and not stagnate, all that stuff. And spending that time critical thinking is something that I think we do that weekly, and we challenge each other, and we have like an open forum where

Sam Parsons (27:57.514)
Reid can tell me, hey Sam, can you do this? Or I can say, hey, we need to update the website. And we're constantly working on that stuff. And we're not just waiting for someone else to do it for us. We picked up the reins on our own horse, if you will. And that, hopefully, will lead to the longevity that you talk about.

Finn (28:12.542)
Thank you.

Finn (28:17.954)
I was thinking about ways that you guys collectively, Tim and Elite have influenced the sport. And one of the ways I think you guys have done it, correct me if I'm wrong, is you have made it easier to get to know professionals in the sport. Like when I think historically about the sport, there's maybe two guys, Prefontaine, Carl Lewis, Meb who like you felt like you knew, but a lot of people have kind of taken the path of like Gael and Rupp sort of being secretive.

Do you feel like that's been a change you guys have impacted where like, there's now a culture of more like, forthrightedness and not hiding, stuff like that?

Sam Parsons (28:57.43)
When I think back at our early, early conversations of Tin Man Elite, I remember distinctly talking about exactly what you just said. I remember talking about myself, Reid and Drew in a room together and being like, yeah, we feel like when we were growing up in the sport, we didn't know, we had no idea.

I had no idea what Evan Yeager was actually like, even though all I wanted to do was know that. And then when Flowtrak would make those small inside the program or driven series, I was able to just dive into that. And then that would be my only way of knowing that. And I think that one thing that I hope that we did was we forced other teams.

to showcase and to storytell and do those things for everyone, so that it is accessible to know anyone from the Evan Yeagers to the Eric Holtz to everyone within the running spectrum, whatever sport it is. I think we created a blueprint in order for other teams to copy, which is amazing.

so that they could grow their own social media platforms and like basically just showing them like, hey, look, if you want people to care about this sport, you know, like you have to showcase your athletes constantly, you know, and like tell people where they're racing and it has to be more I think that like, I think it was inevitable with or without us within the social media world, like they would have picked up on it. But like, we were kind of at the start of the Instagram boom, within the running world where it's like,

no one was taking videos of themselves on workout days. You know what I mean? Like you would need to, like I said, like have Flowtrak come out and film it for you and then they post it on their sites, you know? And then the only photos when I was a high school kid that would be posted from professional runners would be professional photography when they were at a Diamond League or at a World Championships or at a US Championships and then they would maybe say something about their race. Like that's the only content I ever got, you know?

Sam Parsons (31:14.726)
And all I wanted to see was what Evan Yeager was eating and the stuff you love about YouTube and you get to see that stuff. Yeah I hope T-Main Elite was a part of ushering that in. It certainly was one of our mission statements early on was to be able to figure out how we can actually connect to our audience and it still is something where when I was talking to the new...

recruits at our team retreat and I was kind of doing my little product spiel since I head up the product side of Tymeneleet's business. I was telling them like for me personally the most fulfilling experience is when I go to a race whether it is a 60 year old man wearing a hoodie who just finished his first marathon to a 13 year old high school kid that I see in the stands wearing something that

I was able to be a part of in some degree and what that logo means for me, to then see it on them, and then all of a sudden they feel like they're a part of this community and they feel accepted by me, and I accept them and vice versa. It's just so beautiful. And that's what is a huge driver for me to keep doing the work outside of just running on it. And yeah, certainly, and I told them, I'm like, look, you guys might not get it yet, but.

The more years you run for this team and the more you see that, the more you're going to appreciate seeing those people when you go to races and just out and about. I was in California and I saw a kid at the track that I randomly pulled up to in Torrance, California. It took him probably two or three minutes to come up to me once I was done my drills and stuff, just watching with his friends. Then he's like, yeah, are you Sam Parsons?

I was like, yeah, man, and he pulled out his bag, like Tim Manley, and he was like, I wore this today on my tempo run, bro. And that was the coolest thing, you know? And I was feeling like crap, and I was like, man, this afternoon workout might go really bad, and it was just a shot of adrenaline to my veins, to be like, yeah, you know, this is so cool, this is worth it, you know, all that. Any pain I feel in the morning, it's worth it, you know? Ha ha.

Finn (33:39.342)
On a different topic, I'm thinking about the possible necessity of rivalries and trash talk in the sport. And I'm wondering, in your case, did you guys ever have another group or a person to act as a foil for what you were trying to do? There was a healthy level of antagonism and stuff like that, or was it always you guys versus the status quo?

Sam Parsons (33:57.027)
Hmm.

Sam Parsons (34:06.386)
I think that we probably talked, early on, it was Bowerman for us because Bowerman was the gold standard. They were the highest. We were by no means rivals to them, but we wanted to be their rivals. You know what I mean? It was the series A team, it was the series B team going up against a Premier League team where it's like, if we score or we tie them, we win. We make them look dumb.

Finn (34:27.066)
Yeah.

Sam Parsons (34:35.274)
because they have all the resources, they have this historic coach, they're Nike, they're the ones on the pedestal. So I think early on it was like when we would show up to races and the one story I'll remember and it's like once again, to them, meaningless. To us, it was everything. Where we showed up to Occidental Track.

And it was like a 1500 meter race. And Drew and I were in the race, and we looked at the start list, and somehow I got into the fast heat. And this is this youthful ignorance I was talking about before, where it's like, can do no wrong. Who cares what happens? For them, it's a tune-up race. They maybe have 100 miles in their legs, who knows? But we wanted to beat them more than anything. And there was like, it was like, Mohamed, Chama Gordi,

Maybe Evan was in the race too. But when it came down to like point scoring, you know, like Drew and I beat out their three guys or whatever, you know, and that rivalry was for us so meaningful to drive us and everything and I was I'm trying to think like today in present time I wish our team had more of a fire to be like

grew those guys, those girls, like they're not beating us today because I come from that sort of fiery energy and I personally have that with individual athletes like Ben Flanagan for example. Like Ben Flanagan has beaten me more times than I've beaten him and I hate him for it, you know what I mean? And like he ran the sound running race, he signed up last minute for the sound running race this summer.

when we were both in this position where we're like, last one's in, first one's out for the world championships. And he knew he had to come do this 5K or else like me and a couple other guys were gonna bump his ranking, you know? And he had to come last minute and do this race and he just sat on my ass, you know what I mean? Like he sat on my ass until like 400 to go and kicked my ass and I was pissed off. And after the race, I was like, I knew you didn't, I knew you were only at this fucking race.

Sam Parsons (37:01.174)
because I'm here, you know what I mean? And he was like, yeah, I know, you signed up for it. And you and these other, Kai Robinson and Kieran Tuntive, you know, you guys are all the guys on the bubble and I had to, you know, it's like, I didn't want to do this race. And there's that competitive fire where there's a respect and there's, we're like, Ben and I are friends, you know what I mean? But man, I want to beat him more than I want to beat anybody, like along with, you know, other Europeans. And I think for me personally, like,

The OAC guys are, I think, like the current standard of like excellence in our sport, where they're seemingly untouchable with whatever they do, with whatever race they go into. So whenever you can, you know, beat an OAC guy, like it's a great day. And I think any professional runner would say that. But a hardcore rival, like...

we don't have. Um, but I certainly think that like we've talked about doing like a four by mile against OAC and it would be this David at verse Goliath story once again for us, you know, and like we're, we have always thrived being in that position. Um, where it's like, you know, you know, like they have their fancy gym with all their woodways and you know,

Sam Parsons (38:28.88)
And there's that kind of like, yeah, if we could beat them when they have all that resources and stuff, that would be awesome. So yeah, that would be, yeah. I think that covers it.

Finn (38:35.611)
Yeah.

Finn (38:41.262)
I got to imagine that fire is so tough to screen for when you're trying to recruit athletes to the team. And like one of the things that I'm thinking about is if there were athletes out there in the sport that you could have on 10 man elite, not necessarily for their talent, but because they would set the precedent of being like, like a cloned version of your personality, who would they be?

Sam Parsons (39:04.019)
I think Drew Bosley is the first person that comes to mind. Like I think Drew Bosley hates losing. And I think I saw that firsthand, like at indoors last year, when I was watching him at the national championships where he was, I think, by far the most fit runner there. And he wanted not only to beat everyone, but he wanted to show everyone that he was the strongest. And he ended up getting beat, but the way he ran those races,

were him grabbing the reins with a mile to go and being like, I'm going to make everyone hurt. I'm going to drag everyone out in deep waters. So I think he definitely has that swagger. I bet on that NAU team, and I could be completely wrong, I've only met Drew a few times, but I bet Drew was...

the most like, we're not losing a fucking BYU. You know what I mean? I could just see him being that role on that team, more so than anyone else. Who knows, maybe Nico is that guy. I don't know them well enough. But True is one of those guys, I'm trying to think of the younger guys.

Finn (40:21.202)
Well, have you influenced, has your personality rubbed off on members of the Tim and Elite team? Do you feel like you've influenced a culture?

Sam Parsons (40:27.786)
I tried to. I think that I would say Joey used to be very more complacent, just happy to be your type of mentality. And I think he has adopted it more so than anyone. He would never ever give me credit for it.

But he certainly goes into steeple races and I'll hear him talk about it where he's like, oh, I'm not, I'm not going to lose to this guy this weekend, you know, or I'm not going to lose to Isaac Uptight or, you know, like I won't, I'm going to beat him. You know what I mean? Or whatever it is, you know, like, uh, so I'd say Joey's probably the biggest one, you know, like I, uh, Antonio, our newest, uh, Spanish guy from Virginia Tech, like he's just a great racer, um, won a ton of races in college. And, uh, he's like,

Insanely type A like in saying Lee type A and I couldn't be more less type A as I'm you know, like Ten minutes late to the interview and trying to figure out my chrome account and It's funny our Dynamic together is very funny because he'll go about everything very methodically and you know We need to do it this way this way this way and I'll just get let's just get to work, you know So I'm trying to influence him as much as I can

but Austin Miller, he's another guy, younger guy, D2, nobody really knows his name yet, but I think that I can get in his ear and he'll really listen to be like, yes, like he was talking to me the other day about like how he wants to break four and see you, me and him together. And I'm like, you realize the only people that have ever broken four on Colorado soil are the on boys in a workout where they all could help each other.

perfectly paced, you know, and they went on to run like 728 for 3k and 13 or 1250 something in the 5k, those guys like the following week. I'm like, you need to be insanely strong to break forward altitude. But he had that swagger, you know what I mean? To say it out loud. He had that unwarranted confidence and unwarranted confidence is one of my favorite.

Finn (42:41.895)
Yeah.

Sam Parsons (42:47.266)
things in this sport. I've given speeches at running camps just about unwarranted confidence and how it's a beautiful thing to be able to have that where you can say that you're going to do something and accomplish something before you have any damn right to be saying it at all. I'm not talking about a goal that you might be able to achieve. I'm talking about something that you have no business thinking that way.

Finn (42:50.853)
Yes.

Sam Parsons (43:16.778)
And you will probably fail in your pursuit of that goal of like while having that unwarranted confidence and like the story I tell him that is like the race I had at Wisconsin where it's like I had no business at the time Trying to racing against Sean McGordy Justin Knight those guys Grant Fisher Like those guys were already running at world championships. You know what I mean? Like I was like a I was like a trying to break 29 You know flat

10k runner, you know, and I tried to beat them in a cross country race. Um, and I, and I failed, but I succeeded because I had that unwarranted confidence to even get close to it. And that's kind of the virtue within that unwarranted confidence is like you will fail in that pursuit, but in that pursuit, you are going to achieve something that you never thought you could anyway.

Finn (44:07.202)
Yeah, what is it like shoot for the moon? You'll still hit the stars, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dig it, I dig it. All right, I know we've only got you for 10 more minutes. So I got three more questions for you. First one, can we play stock up or stock down? All right, state of running media. So, Sidious, Flowtrack, Let's Run, et cetera. Stock up or stock down and why?

Sam Parsons (44:09.962)
That's right, that's right, same exact concept.

Sam Parsons (44:22.05)
Let's do it.

Sam Parsons (44:33.059)
I'm so critical of this one, you know, just because like, just, yeah, that's right. You know, like stock up in terms of where it was four years ago, of course, you know, of where it should be still stocked down, you know, like we're, the running, the running world is still light years behind where we should be in terms of like promotion and.

Finn (44:35.57)
Be critical. No one's going to listen. This is my trail.

Sam Parsons (44:59.122)
I mean, the way to put it simply is imagine a world where Sidious Mag all of a sudden disappears or Let's Run.com disappears. These seemingly life floods of our sport in order for people to get news and information and knowing when things are. You know what I'm saying? What if those were gone all of a sudden? What would be there then? There wouldn't be anything and then the sport would be in disrepair. So stock down in regards to...

having enough media outlets that are covering the sport.

Finn (45:32.402)
But that is also a credit to them in the sense that there would be a huge loss there if they were no longer there.

Sam Parsons (45:38.078)
Oh my gosh, yeah. That's why, I remember when Sidious Mag first started and I try my best to do it with any media running company I see popping up, it's like giving them anything that I possibly can. It's like, I was on one of the first Sidious podcasts where Chris Chavez, people didn't really know Chris Chavez before he worked for Sports Illustrator, ESPN or anything. You know what I'm saying? It's important.

And I think it's important for all the athletes to be accessible and open and supportive of those people. And it's like, I see it more and more because Merber is so close and was colleagues with all these people that they're so willing and eager to be on and do these things. But it's also on the athletes to not be these recluses and willing to come on the shows the same way, you know.

football stars are going on ESPN. It's a shitty example just because of all the shitty stuff he's been saying recently, but it's like Aaron Rodgers coming on the MacAfee show all the time. It's like, that stuff needs to happen in order to do it. And I feel like there's a lot of pros out there that wouldn't dream of going on the let'srun.com podcast or getting interviewed by them just because of something that some stupid person said on a message board. You know what I'm saying? But anyway.

Finn (47:00.562)
Yeah. That would be super good. That would be a great podcast, just like responding to internet trolling, like a runner feels compelled to defend their position.

Sam Parsons (47:09.519)
Runners couldn't handle it. Runners couldn't handle it. Come on. We all live in our little bubbles. No one ever pops our bubbles. Come on. We get one negative comment and they're broken down.

Finn (47:21.882)
Well, dude, I feel like you brought it in this interview. You didn't have to, but you did and I appreciate it. So credit to you. But a couple more questions. Dude, we got Andrew Bumbelaw coming to the Ultra Trial Running World next month, running the Black 800. Bumbelaw, sorry, Bumbelaw, my bad. Ben Blankenship.

Sam Parsons (47:27.086)
Appreciate it. Thank you.

Sam Parsons (47:35.623)
Sick, yeah. All that. Bumble up, bumble up.

Sam Parsons (47:41.378)
I saw that, I saw that, very exciting.

Finn (47:43.782)
Who should be next?

Sam Parsons (47:46.122)
Um, probably Joe Klecker, you know, like get, get him out on like a 50 mile race, you know, break Charlie Lawrence's recent record. Um, shout out to him. Um, I think it was like in the Klecker family before that. So he's got to go do that. And, uh, yeah, Klecker is just a grinder. 50 K races would be, uh, it'd be. He'd be a problem. He'd be a problem on the trail running scene.

Finn (48:14.862)
Last question. So assuming you're doing something different in the next decade of your life, are you going in-house or are you continuing this entrepreneurial journey and building something new?

Sam Parsons (48:31.422)
The team was joking with me when I left for LA because of this frozen tundra that swept over Colorado that They all were saying that oh, yeah, Sam is building out that a new LA team without us I Would love to be able to It would it would be a dream to be able to have a brand and hand me some of the reins to Kickstart another

another tin man elite or something to that degree. That'd be really, really fun for sure. So I guess that's more out of house in a way that I'm still working directly under a brand or sorry, that's in house, right? If I'm working directly for a brand in that regard, but I would say more likely than not, now I have my...

Amazing girlfriend in the back of my head probably gonna work internally for a little bit, you know security Little little less risk involved, you know, don't have to just be happy with selling a few shirts here and there As it's gonna be very hard to you it's gonna be very hard to not just Yeah, it'll be

Finn (49:43.806)
Well, Sam.

Yeah.

Sam Parsons (49:53.918)
Yeah, I have no idea where it's gonna take me. Like I certainly am going to pour my heart and soul into whatever I'm doing. And I hope that I'll want to. I feel like that's something where it's very hard to find, and it's very exciting to see you continuing to pour your heart and soul into this podcast. It's something where when we did our podcast two years ago, if you would have told me, you would have been the premier trail running podcast into the space.

um probably wouldn't have believed you um but it's a

Finn (50:27.006)
Dude, there were three listeners back then. It was myself, my sympathetic girlfriend, and my mom, who was my biggest fan.

Sam Parsons (50:33.002)
That's right, that's right. And you did not give up despite that. Even though, I mean, what is, like, what's, I know there's some crazy, like, analytics around podcasts, right, where it's like podcasts fail, like, in the first, like, three months or give up or something.

Finn (50:47.326)
Just gotta keep going, just gotta keep going.

Sam Parsons (50:49.32)
Yeah, the grind man.

Finn (50:51.226)
Well, dude, I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for the round two. At some point I got to have you on for round three because there's all sorts of like e-comm, or related questions I have for you that I think could be interesting, but, uh, I know you got a boogie, so thank you so much. Do you have any final thoughts that you want to leave listeners with before we go?

Sam Parsons (51:10.475)
Probably you'll never see me in a trail race. Unfortunately, I'm sorry. I think that maybe that discredits what I was saying before about being an all-around great runner. Maybe Ben Blanketchip is on this new horizon that I haven't even thought about because I haven't even opened myself up to that consideration.

when I was saying before about being a great runner, you have to do everything. Maybe a 100 mile race is part of that new criteria. I don't know if he's just been reading too many David Goggins books or something, but he certainly is out to suffer that much I know. But kudos to him. Looking forward to continuing to follow along the rise of the trail running world. And yeah, appreciate you guys listening.

Finn (52:06.095)
Awesome man.