Mary Kate Shea | Building World-Class Running Events, Pro Athlete Recruitment, Boston Marathon Stories

Finn (00:03.225)
Mary-Kate Shea, it is a pleasure to have you on the Singletrack Podcast. How are you doing today?

MK Shea (00:08.366)
Great, thank you for inviting me. This is exciting. I love trail running. Love the Alta Sea.

Finn (00:13.422)
Yeah. Well, I was just going to say from what I gather back in the 90s, you pitched a story on and trace into the Boston Globe. And so I guess I say that to say that you already have a lot of interest in our ultra trail running world.

MK Shea (00:28.714)
Absolutely. I grew up on the south of Boston and lived away for many years. And when I came back, I joined the Marshfield Roadrunners. And in that group, there was a gentleman by the name of Roger Wells, who just passed away last year. But there was a great ultra group and he set many 50K American records and all sorts of crazy 24 hour records. So they kind of folded me in and.

Hey, let's try a 50K. Let's go up to Lake Waramong. Hey, what about the 50-miler in Vermont? Sure, I'll try that. And once you try a 50-miler and you're able to finish, you're like, I get it, I get it. 100 miles is doable. Then they wrote me into 100-miler. But everyone always supported each other, you know? And it's just so freeing. Running in ultra, running in the trails. You're not looking at your watch. There's a great camaraderie. There's a lot of collaboration.

Finn (01:19.079)
Yes.

MK Shea (01:26.122)
I think on my first one, I didn't know you were supposed to have extra salt on a hot day. It was like back in the 90s. We barely knew you had to drink water. And it was enlightening because we all had a subscription to ultra running Don Allison. And you just have to pick up word of mouth like tips. You just have to talk to people about tips like what should I be eating and drinking?

There was nothing special about it other than it was a challenge, a personal challenge for everybody out there.

Finn (01:59.37)
Athletes in our sport from the 80s, 90s, I would even say the early aughts, I would always argue are demonstrably tougher and braver than athletes today. A lot of the research is still nascent, but the 100 mile distance, 50 mile distance, all that stuff is becoming less and less of a mystery from like a coaching standpoint, nutrition standpoint. It's becoming more actually really about like the dynamics of competition than I would say, you know,

rewriting the record books and kind of figuring out what's possible from like a human performance standpoint, which I think is kind of cool because at the end of the day, I would love to see the evolution more towards competition than like what is a human capable of.

MK Shea (02:40.426)
Yeah, well, I think to me both are intriguing, right? What is a human capable? What are some fastest known times around the world? What are we capable of? But then that element of competition in the midst of that capability is also intriguing. That's kind of what keeps me really motivated and happy in the job that I've been doing for 25 or so years here with the BAA.

Finn (03:07.666)
I was telling you this offline, I guess just to cue up a little bit of context for this conversation, a lot of listeners of the show, they're race directors, they're pro athletes, they're marketing people, they're general operators in the sport of trail running, sport of ultra running. And a lot of us, myself included, we're always looking for the next thing or ways to improve the systems in our community. I would say most people are pretty receptive to new ideas.

I don't think the title or the position of elite athlete coordinator is totally novel in our sport, but like there are races like UTMB and I think like Ultra Trail Cape Town, I think even like the Mount Washington road race, uh, might have one, but I don't think we have someone in our community that is as year round involved and like focused on this particular aspect of the race experience like you are. And so, you know, one of my hopes is that.

this can really stand as sort of like an evergreen intro episode to what you do and what you've learned, you know, since the mid nineties and maybe people can get inspired by it. And, uh, you know, some of these race directors listening, they can be like, well, I can, I can implement that and maybe create some sort of competitive advantage for my own race. So, um, really appreciate it. I just wanted to kind of right off the bat, thank you because, uh, I think this is a really like exciting world that you operate in it's somewhat new in trail and we have a lot to learn.

MK Shea (04:37.654)
Yeah, it's interesting to me. I think the major difference is that, say in the major marathons in the world, if we just take the Abbott Royal Marathon majors, or if we just take Chicago, New York and Boston, the genesis of that pro field, which for Boston started probably 1986 when John Hancock decided to sponsor it, was that

In inviting the best athletes in the world, it wasn't totally selfless. It was, we invite the best athletes in the world. That generates media interest. Media interest results in media value. Media value results in sponsors more attracted to the race. Sponsors bring in the money, which then can support the pro fields. So.

without it goes hand in hand. So they both feed each other and trail running a it's very hard to cover from a media perspective. But when you watch some of those shows about the ultra the multiple day tracks and North Face sponsors and other entities sponsor, those are fascinating. That's fascinating for not only spectators, but sponsors to, you know, tag along to.

And I think trails getting there, especially with some of the bigger races around the world. And I'm not really familiar with how a recruiter would attract. Pros to a race that may not be in a competition series or may not be at that top tier. And probably that's where you have to start in the grassroots is saying, you know, every trail race is important.

Who do we have in our race? And even if they're not being recruited or supported financially, who can we tell a story about? How can we get it out there? And that's probably what part of this podcast is doing too, is you're telling these great stories of a lot of phenomenal athletes, but you can't make a living from professional trail running unless you have some type of financial support, because it just takes so much time. It takes a lot of time to train and to be at the top of your sport.

Finn (06:40.153)
Mm.

Finn (07:03.918)
Maybe the answer to this question would highlight the importance of your role, but in a hypothetical scenario, if you turned off the faucet of athlete recruitment for the Boston Marathon, how quickly would interest in the race and eagerness to sign up and do it kind of fall by the wayside and other races in the sport would like really take advantage of that? And there would just be a totally different environment two or three years down the line as a result.

MK Shea (07:04.046)
Thank you.

MK Shea (07:15.829)
Mm-hmm.

MK Shea (07:36.502)
A couple of things would happen. There'd always be a Boston Marathon, I believe. It's going on 128 years. There would always be a Boston Marathon, but it's incredibly expensive to host a Boston Marathon. I think they did a breakout per athlete between the police departments, the fire departments, the eight cities and towns, the security, especially after the bombing. It's...

Finn (07:40.573)
Yes.

MK Shea (08:03.11)
as expensive or not more expensive than the fee we're charging for you to participate in the race. So it is a very expensive race. So you'd have to figure out how do we put that race on with the money we're receiving. If you don't have a profiled, then the media are not interested in covering it. The media pay media rights to cover the race. The highest performing portion.

of their broadcast is the pro race. They sell commercial spots during the pro race time. They make money, but they also spend money. So most, the model is you have to spend money to make money. So if you took the pro race out, I think the Boston Marathon will still be intriguing. But could you really, would the results reverberate? Because now you have

No drug testing. You have no oversight by World Athletics or the governing federations. You have no certification from USATF. You have all these rules and regulations and parameters that have been put into place because this pro field is driving the excellence. You have no shoe checks, no sponsor checks.

Yeah, there'd be a lot that would get lost. And I don't know if you could really believe in the results because this.

Finn (09:40.338)
Hmm. When I think about our community, there are some races that are making a concerted effort to be increasingly professionalized and to really prop up and support sort of the competitive aspects of the sport, the professional sides of the sport. There are also just as many, if not more races out there that are delivering a very different specific experience. It's less about competitive storylines. It's about creating like this.

grassroots ambiance and showing this particular area of the country or interesting geography and kind of helping shepherd people through that. Obviously, there are other reasons to start a race, but I guess where I'm driving with this question is like, is there a specific type of race you want to build when athlete recruitment becomes necessary? Or are there many benefits of building out?

the programs that you've been building out of the last 25 years.

MK Shea (10:41.258)
I think if you want to be a world class sporting event, then you need to bring in a world class field.

Finn (10:47.239)
Hmm.

MK Shea (10:49.29)
If we're trying to elevate the sport, showcase the sport, spotlight the sport, then it has to require excellence. And the only way to require excellence is to bring in the best athletes in the world. So that's what we're always trying to do, is to have this be not only the Olympics for everyone, because 80% of the field has to qualify to run Boston. So it could be every person's own Olympic challenge to make that qualifying time.

but it's also to showcase how amazing the human body is in that motion forward, in that ability to run, in that ability to cover that distance. And that's what I think is so intriguing about our sport. I mean, this past weekend, let's just take that for an example, Agnes Negedich set a 10K world record, but en route, she set a 5K world record that was just set two weeks ago by Beatrice Chabette.

So when you look at these performances, and is it shoes, is it training, is it nutrition, what is it? But it continues when Ilya Kipchoki came to Boston last year, he wanted to take on that challenge of the course. So I agree with you that you can spotlight areas of the world and have it be a destination trail race. That's very intriguing. You can't get more spectacular than the scenery surrounding ultra running and trail running.

Finn (12:07.87)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

MK Shea (12:16.334)
I mean, there's nothing more beautiful than every single trail run I've ever read about, watched, seen, it's just stunning. So definitely that could be capitalized upon. But if you're talking about purely competitive-based racing, you're looking to perhaps, you know, some of the comrades or some of the road events because people are more apt to.

cover it from a media standpoint, but also recruitment for those type of events has been ongoing for decades.

Finn (12:53.662)
So if you were a consultant in our sport and you were starting to pitch or encourage this position at races or within organizations that don't, aren't fully dedicated to it yet, would sort of like your top line statement be if you want to become a world class event, part of the journey to that status involves this role.

MK Shea (13:18.714)
Yes, I would say so. Because a pro recruiter is someone that is going to research the hell out of everything and everybody involved in that sport. And it's going to go from soup to nuts, as one of my bosses used to say at John Hancock, because I worked for John Hancock before coming over to the BAA. John Hancock was the principal sponsor. And their model was quite intriguing because as a privately held company,

in 1986, they said, hey, we're going to provide the money to support this race, but we're going to own the professional field. This is going to be our field. So it was the John Hancock professional athlete field, much like now it's the Bank of America professional athlete field. So in that ownership, there needs to be an expert in that, in that pool, who is passionate about the sport that wants to learn about the sport, but also wants to facilitate bringing together

feels that will be intriguing to spectators, feels that will be intriguing to mass participants, feels that will be intriguing to the media. So when you bring in an Ilya Kipchoiluk last year, you have to match him up with an Evans-Nabets and Caprudo because you have to make a race. It has to be a race. And that's what's intriguing about a lot of the trail races because it is dynamic, it's changing continuously. Yes, you have the great trail runners, but...

positions three through 12 are constantly changing. And the effort that's required for that change is what the story is and what's intriguing. So if you were say to connect across North America, a bunch of smaller races and have a series, they already do series in trail running, but have them connected to share resources.

then you could have a pro recruiter who could recruit for a number of different races or shared experiences. Every week we're meeting, even this morning I met with a group, I also do the pro wheelchair and the pro para for Boston, and we meet with all the major marathons in the world on a regular basis to discuss, hey, what are the top issues right now? What do we need to talk about? Are we talking about equipment? Are we talking about wheelchair technology? What are we doing to lift not only the athletes but the sport itself?

MK Shea (15:43.382)
So yes, I think it's definitely a good idea to have some technical experts involved in any type of racing or competitive situation.

Finn (15:53.23)
You mentioned

Finn (16:20.206)
in building these fields as opposed to people inside of UTMB.

MK Shea (16:26.797)
It was kind of like how I used to explain it. It would be like Dunkin' Donuts set in the lineup for the Patriots game. Yeah.

Finn (16:32.13)
Exactly. And one of the questions I have there is, if this was under strictly the racist purview, would the approach be the same way? Or are there particular interests inside John Hancock that drive the building of these fields in a different direction?

MK Shea (16:49.078)
Well, three marathons ago, Hancock gave the ownership back to the BAA where it belongs from an obvious standpoint. So now basically I was traded across the street. So now working for the BAA, I'm working within, you know, the BAA is a nonprofit that promotes running and we have a number of events throughout the year. But working within that model, I've been able to do...

Finn (16:58.087)
Hmm.

MK Shea (17:19.602)
even more for the sport. And this is how you can do more for the sport. I'll just give you a quick example. So in the old model, I would bring in about 60 athletes, top tier. Everybody would be supported, which means appearance fee, prize awards, lodging, travel, meals, massage, recovery, pick up at Logan, world-class experience for the athletes that we invited here to Boston.

With the BAA, what I was able to do is not only bring in those 60, but to merge a sub-elite program, which now I call the professional development program. So what this affords is now to present a group of athletes, which isn't just 25 to 30 of the best men and women, it's 60 of the best men and 60 of the best women, because below that tier of say, 201 man,

to the most support will probably stop about 207, 205. Below that, now you have a number of folks who really wanna run this race. And then you're allowed to provide other compliments, complimentary entry, transportation to the start, staging at the start, recovery massage, gear check, a personal hydration on the course, that's huge, right?

Finn (18:24.659)
Mm.

MK Shea (18:45.942)
So I'm able to extend that so we get increased depth in the field. So it's not just the top athletes, but it's the top 60 athletes, 60 of the world's best. So in the men's field alone between the open, this year the open, the wheelchair and the para, there's 29 different countries, 29 different countries. It allows you that breadth. So working from inside the industry with the race organizer.

Finn (19:08.6)
Mm.

MK Shea (19:16.31)
you're able to have more flexibility to do increased programmatic elements. So I do like the transition.

Finn (19:22.142)
Mm.

Finn (19:25.87)
I want to talk a little bit about recruiting and sort of like how you operate year round in a moment, but one thing I've always been curious about, what are the traits required to be good at this job and how would you rank order them in terms of importance?

MK Shea (19:38.786)
The traits. The traits to be a good recruiter, a good pro athlete recruiter. I look at it like this. So every year I basically hire 300 people. So I'm hiring 300 professional athletes to run our races around the year, throughout the year. The 5K, the pro mile, the 10K, the half, the marathon.

In doing so, you have to be incredibly passionate about the sport. You have to love research. You have to be able to communicate well. You need to provide customer service on a whole different level because I mean, even today, just little emails from a VI, visually impaired athlete, who's a Paralympian, questions, answering questions timely and in a professional manner.

learning the art of negotiation, which you don't learn in college, but you learn through life experiences. And, sorry about that. It's going through my computer, sorry. Okay. So, the art of negotiation. So when I first started this back in 1999, the person, the gentleman who was doing the job, I learned an incredible amount from him.

Finn (20:48.976)
No problem.

MK Shea (21:07.082)
He didn't even have a computer. He didn't use a computer. He didn't have email. So it was mostly communicating via phone and messaging and back and forth. And you do really gain some insight in how to work with other people. Say, I wanted you to run Boston Finn. I would, this is how I would go about it. OK.

Finn once during Boston, he's approached me or I've actively sought him out because I've seen him run in Berlin and I was really excited about how he never gave up, how he competed, how he was a risk taker, how he was gritty and challenging, how he never gave up, how he came through that Brandenburg gate like it was just his first mile. I like that kid. All right, I'm gonna research the hell out of that kid. I'm gonna look at his historical perspective. I'm gonna look what he did from college and beyond.

I'm going to look at what races he chose to run and where he placed in those races. I'm going to look at who his competition was in those races. I'm going to look for any gaps. I'm going to look for any suspicious activity, like did he improve by 30 minutes? That might mean he's not legit. That might mean he's not clean. I'm going to look to see if he has any affiliate sponsorships. I'm going to look to see what team he runs with. I'm going to look to see where he trains in the country. If it's a hotspot, I want to see teammates, past coaches.

I'm going to research the heck out of this one kid. And then I'm going to multiply that by 300 because that's the care you have to give to every single athlete that you invite to participate. Part of it's risk management and part of it is an internal drive because you're a bit competitive and you want your race to be one of the best races in the world. And you're really pissed off if another race gets somebody you really want it. So.

And you have to keep trying. You just keep trying. You just keep communicating.

Finn (23:05.882)
Well, a couple of things. I mean, the recruiting part, you know, that, well, just the fact that recruiting was required, obviously was something I was aware of, but the way you phrased it in terms of it also being a customer service job is very interesting as well. Talk about that.

MK Shea (23:24.758)
Well, it's treating other people how you would like to be treated, right? If I send you an email, you expect a reply. If I have a question, you expect an answer. If I'm the best athlete in Norway, you expect that there's going to be a significant offer for me to come to Boston. It's not just one-sided though, right? The customer service. There's expectations on our side of the fence, too.

you're expected to be well-trained. You're expected to show up at the starting line. You're expected to run through the finish line. You're expected not to DNF. You're expected to chase that course record. So it is customer service, but it's two-sided because we're expecting a lot from a professional athlete. We're expecting a lot from a professional field. Like there's a code of conduct there that people have to follow. But you...

These are amazing. Runners are amazing, aren't they? Because they're so humble. They're just humble people. They are so humble compared to every other sport. It's crazy. You can be standing next to it and having a conversation over breakfast with the fastest people in the world. And they're humble, approachable, intelligent, driven, competitive, smart, witty, humorous. It runs the gamut. They're just fascinating people.

Finn (24:50.662)
Going back to the recruiting part, you mentioned that there's all sorts of data points that you look into for each athlete and it goes way back in time. You might be starting the process way earlier than listeners suspect.

MK Shea (25:01.074)
I have more databases than anyone would ever want to know. I've read through more reports than anyone would ever want to know.

Finn (25:04.347)
WUF

Finn (25:07.962)
I was just going to ask you how many like is there is like for someone working in your position. Is there this one end all be all CRM database type structure or do you have all sorts of disparate sources, you have to go to get what you need.

MK Shea (25:22.538)
I cross-reference a bunch of different places. One I really like is Telestopeja, T-I- and you can pretty much search for any athlete who's been on the books here. I'll do it right now. Let me see. Let me see if you're there.

Finn (25:39.856)
I probably wouldn't be I'm not I am NOT someone of talent

MK Shea (25:45.578)
This group is amazing and it's international.

Finn (25:53.486)
While you're looking it up, there is, there's a, there's a relatively young company in our sport called free trail that is building out this fantasy sports type system for fans of the sport, where like, if there are races coming up, they have all the top athletes that are on the starting line, you can click into each of their names and it'll show all sorts of background info, media places they've, you know, done stuff on. Uh, yeah.

MK Shea (26:12.834)
Go.

MK Shea (26:19.982)
So hold on, hold on. So this was one of my first jobs. This was one of my first jobs, writing and holding up for listeners a media guide. It's not just any media guide. It's probably about one and a half to two inches thick. It covers 128 years of history. It covers all the results of those years. It covers all the top lists. And then at the back for every invited athlete.

I write a bio for each athlete. So it includes things in some are longer than others, but it includes every single race results in the World Marathon majors, and then historic highlights, and then personal notes. So you'll start to know things about the athletes. This is primarily for the media, but we publish it on our website so that anybody can find out anything they wanna know about any of the athletes running a race. It's great. Yeah.

Finn (27:17.958)
Very cool. So has it become increasingly easier for you to do the research portion?

MK Shea (27:22.846)
Yes. So back, back when I started, I would be sitting at my computer because I was mainly at the beginning, just writing and researching about all the athletes. So putting together all the writing and research about these athletes and then presenting it to see who was going to be invited to be in the pro fields. And I would rely on race results weekly from David

The only way you found out results was from this subscription service, which would be mailed to your home. And then when everything started to go online, runners world was probably the first kind of data driven experience where. Online, they would list the most recent races. Because when you're thinking of the ultra scene, I mean, you'd have to wait till you received the copy of ultra running to find out the results of the Vermont 50.

unless you were there in person. And then you could go and look on the side of a tree and it'd staple up, you know. But then there was cool running. I don't know. That's probably what we're gonna list this time. Cool running was another one that you could find pretty quickly the results across the country, but you did have to look in a number of different spaces. And it took time. I mean, you could read a chapter of a book by the time things came through for races.

Finn (28:31.131)
Yeah, oh yeah, I know, running, yeah.

MK Shea (28:49.154)
So it is easy, it's very easy.

Finn (28:49.221)
if you did.

If you get a chance, maybe after this interview, go check out fant which is sort of, it's one of the best beginnings that I've seen of any sort of pro athlete database in... Yes. I think you might have to make an account.

MK Shea (29:03.554)
Finley Dodd free trail. All right, I'm there. Thank you podium. Oh, well we can't, we can't bet on our races. Hm.

Finn (29:16.366)
I don't know if we're there yet either. I'm not sure if that's a legal thing, but...

MK Shea (29:21.01)
Yeah, that just came up today in a meeting. Yeah, there's no betting, because a number of entities want to be able to offer betting on the Boston Marathon. Yeah, so it is allowed now. Are you just picking, like, what do you win? You're picking your...

Finn (29:34.959)
Okay.

Finn (29:43.106)
In the case of free trail, a lot of the times it's not, there's not money on the line per se, at least yet. It's more like all the partners that are aligned with free trail, they might throw in some gear, nutrition, etc. shoes for people that, you know, win a particular race or win the entire season.

MK Shea (30:04.47)
So it's in kind. So is this your best database?

Finn (30:09.326)
It's one of them. Yeah. I mean, it's the one that I'm the most interested in because, uh, you know, you can click into a particular athlete and you can see all their social handles. You can see their race history. If they've been, you know, on podcasts or featured in content in the free trail network, you can go and listen to that and that'll help inform your picks.

MK Shea (30:28.99)
Oh yeah, I like that. I like the media section there.

Finn (30:33.95)
So, and I think this is the people behind it are super fans and they're great people. And I think at some point in time, it could take off. I think we're still at this moment in the sport where we don't have like the number of fans versus the number of participants. There's a big gap there. Like it's a very participant driven sport, as you can imagine, with road running too and fewer fans. So there's that work that needs to be done. But the infrastructure being built.

MK Shea (30:59.95)
But it's such a cozy environment, like everybody's really into it. It's so sophisticated. Everybody knows the players, right? So you have that going for you. That's like, that's huge. Yeah. This is intriguing. I'll take a look at this. Go down this rabbit hole. Yeah.

Finn (31:11.897)
Yeah.

Finn (31:18.03)
Another question I want to ask you, how many of these full-time positions, like your position at Boston, how many of those exist in the road running world right now?

to your knowledge.

MK Shea (31:30.362)
Well, all the majors have someone similar to myself. Berlin is also the race director, Mark Milda. And Chicago, Kerry Pinkowski is the race director and he also does a lot of the recruiting along with Tracy Wilson. And then Sam Grottwell out of New York, myself. Ted Hayano is also the race director of Tokyo and he does that. And then Dennis Varden Spencer.

Spencer Barden from London who does London, but he also does some of the Diamond League meets. And he's great. Spencer is great. And then for track, you know, a lot of the race directors say like Mark Wetmore at the New Balance, the huge meet, which is coming up in the 1st of February, he will do the recruiting.

Yeah, I wouldn't know. Houston does a great job. They did a great job. They set an American record there this past weekend. Weenie Kaladi set that record on the female side. Yeah, I'm not sure. What about in your industry besides UTMB?

Finn (32:50.462)
I think it is few and far between. I think that there are very few people out there that do it. I think in a lot of cases, it is the race director themselves that is taking this on part time and sort of taking it upon themselves to personally reach out to athletes and extend invites. I think UTMB does have a dedicated athlete coordinator. Could be wrong. I think there are some people that are hired the week of a race or on race day to manage relations. But.

I don't think it's nearly as sophisticated or year round as what your job entails.

MK Shea (33:27.038)
Yeah, I mean, it's not just the recruiting. It's a lot about management too, because you're talking about registering athletes, waivers, contracts, shoe forms for shoe compliance, what a kit's going to look like, so you can check logos to make sure they're compliant, and then lodging flights, security, massage.

All those teams that come into play and then you SADA for setting up the doping contracts, your race officials, your USATF race officials, your, I mean, there's, there's a lot of elements. It's not just recruiting. You don't just leave it there. It can be multi-dimensional. So this person could not only recruit, but then they're the program manager for everything from time of arrival to departure, but everything that leads up to that.

and making sure that your course is certified, that you're gonna be in the record books, that you're gonna be in all the databases, that you're compliant with all of the rules and regulations of the sport. Yeah, you could really get into it.

Finn (34:42.626)
I do. And there's a, this is totally coincidental, but I'm reading this book about Urban Meyer, who's, if you know him, famous football coach, Ohio State, Florida national champion. And there's this story that he tells, or that one of his colleagues tells where they won the national championship, I think it was back in 2007. And even while the confetti was coming down on the field, Urban Meyer is sprinting back into the locker room.

Because he knows that in that moment, he has this incredible position of leverage where he needs to hop on the phone and call these five star recruits and say, do you see what just happened? We just won the national championship. I need to catch you when you're vulnerable. I want you to sign the dotted line right now. I want you to join the Florida program for next year. And I was reading that maybe three or four days ago, and I was listening to a podcast you did. And I think you kind of approach it the same way. Like you're on the finish line of Boston, like telling Des. Like, let's do this thing again next year. Let's run it back.

MK Shea (35:39.082)
Yeah. I have signed people the same day for the next year. Yeah, definitely. And it's more for Boston anyway, it's more a legacy, a legacy issue that we love our champions and we want to provide that platform for them. And it's more a respect for that athlete. But you also, you know, there's going to be athletes that come in that are devastated and you have to really take into consideration.

the whole person. Yes. Is it a business? Yes, to some extent, but also these are human beings, runners, and there's going to be more people disappointed than happy for any race, you know, because everybody goes into that believing that they will win, that they will podium, that they will PB, that they will get something out of this race. But the reality is, is that

more often than not, because of the temperament personality of a competitive professional athlete, they might be beating themselves up as well about that performance and have to take some time, take a breath, take some time and reevaluate and learn from that experience. So we do like to offer you know, I mean, Saselema, he's the fourth fastest human

of all time over the marathon distance and he will run Boston. Well, he's already run Boston twice in 2017 and 2019 and he did not do well. I think he came in 30th, one of the races. He did not do well, but did he learn from that experience? Yes. Are we inviting him back because he has tremendous potential and we believe in him? Yes. Absolutely. I always knew Deslendon would win from the time I met her in Chicago when she ran one of her.

Finn (37:26.29)
Mm.

MK Shea (37:34.178)
first marathons, I think it was 2010. Because you can kind of see the fit, especially for Boston, you know what I mean? Is that person going to prevail? What is it about that personality and talking to that person that they're going to prevail? So you really beyond the paper, you get to know these athletes when they arrive on race week, we usually have them arrive, you know, Thursday for the Monday race.

And you do get to know the personalities and what drives them and ask them those questions, because beyond the paper and the research and the stats and the results, something in your personality is going to also inform you how you're going to perform.

Finn (38:20.75)
When you think about like your year round priorities in your job, like the parts of the year that are more focused on the customer service component, the parts that are focused on recruitment, how does it break down like spring, summer, winter, fall? Like, are there things you're doing in each of those seasons? Is it a blend? How does it work out for you?

MK Shea (38:40.122)
Yeah, it's a blend. So right now we've announced the feels for the marathon, but right now I'm recruiting for the 5k in the pro mile, which is the Saturday before the marathon. So as soon as that gets finished, which might be in a couple of weeks, and then I'm obviously waiting till after the US Olympic trials because we might add in a few more Americans, but I'm also already thinking about the 10k in June.

And then after the 10K in June, we have the half in November. But in between all that, I'm also taking trips to do recruitment for the 2025 Boston Marathon. So I wouldn't say there's ever really a downtime, because if there is any time, then I'm working on other projects. Right now, I'm going to be doing competition committee, bringing in together experts in the industry to elevate.

our understanding of competition in this sport, in this marathon world. And where is that competition driving excellence and where is it hindering excellence? And what are the technical aspects we have to be cognizant of, whether it's equipment, shoes, nutrition, doping, what are those elements? So trying to bring a work group together to really dive into that deep. So those are the side projects that go.

beside recruiting, which is continuous because there's always communication, and then the actual feet on the ground race week experience where you set up, you know, we set up something similar to like an Olympic village in downtown Boston for the athletes.

Finn (40:26.738)
For those like focus group activities, how soon can change be affected? Like how quickly can you get some sort of decision on a particular area of the competition that you're concerned with and like how quick is that timeline?

MK Shea (40:41.514)
We're in a very fortunate position to have a lot of leverage for it to be quick actions as necessary. I mean, we're working right now introducing, we have now seven divisions in the para group. You know, that's one of our growth areas and seven divisions is unheard of. We're the first race in the entire country to offer prize awards for para athletes. We were the first to offer prize awards for wheelchair athletes. So it depends where what.

avenue you need to make change in, what's the front burner, what's the back burner, and then you just go from there. But when you can get enough decision-makers in the room and you have that leverage, you can approach world para-athletics, you can approach world athletics, you can approach the top governing bodies of your sport and say, why do you not recognize the 5K as an event for para-athletes?

What is making the 5K on the road different than the 5K on the track? How can we help you?

help us to get this as a certified event because it's only gonna raise the profile of the sport. So you pick and choose what you can change and then you go from there.

Finn (42:00.306)
I want to talk a little bit about sort of what goes into recruiting each athlete and what you're able to offer. I know, of course, we can't talk exact numbers, but like when you think about each tier of athletes that you deal with in the recruitment process, and you think about what they're getting, like money, travel, accommodations, gifts, what does it generally look like? Like when you're thinking about that top tier, maybe for example, like what can you offer? Like what can you pick from in your sort of like

MK Shea (42:15.214)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (42:29.922)
a bag of tools to offer them to incentivize them to come.

MK Shea (42:35.65)
Well, Boston has its challenges, and here are the challenges. It's not a flat and fast course. We don't have pacemakers. It's not world record eligible. It is world best eligible. You still get rankings and points similar to what you do in the trail scene with world athletics. So you are a ranked athlete. Having said that, and it's a challenging course. People say it's a net downhill. It is.

Finn (42:45.745)
Yep.

MK Shea (43:05.218)
but there's also a lot of uphill. And the uphills come at a very unfortunate time, about 20 miles in, when you've kind of lost your steam. Having said all that, and we have a lot of competition in the spring, as you know, we have Tokyo, London, Paris, there's a lot of racing that goes on in the spring, and a lot of racing in Asia, particularly as well. So to incentivize athletes to come here, we do rely on that history, which is great, but we also...

That world-class experience is very important to us. So we try to be better. We try to be the best at what we do. So that's the comfort level, the welcoming atmosphere, the staffing, we have an incredible staff at the BAA. We have, I think it was like one volunteer for every three people in the race. We have a great set of volunteers that will do anything these pros need to do.

We have a chef at the Fairmont Copley who prepares all their meals for them. So they have a communal dining area. So for the top athletes, you look at their experiences and their accolades and their successes and their potential. That's the first thing you do. And then for that top athlete, you assess a value. They're also ranked according to world athletics. We're a platinum label world athletic event, which means I have to have a number of platinum athletes

the race, those would be like ranked number one through 30. And then I have to have a number of gold athletes in the race. That's also another parameter. So I'm looking at a finite budget that has to be dispersed. And at Boston, we not only like quality, but we like depth of field too. So that is not just like you'll see some races and there'll be 10 guys and that's it. Then this drop off, drop off, drop off, and then there'll be three guys.

You never know the outcome of a race, but if you have, in our case, I think we have 20 women under 223, if you have that body of talent together, you are creating a more compelling race. So you look at what depth you wanna achieve and equality, and then you take your budget, and then people are rewarded accordingly to their accomplishments.

Finn (45:29.957)
Mm.

MK Shea (45:30.914)
So if you're an Olympian, if you're an Olympic medalist, if you're a world champion, if you're a world championship medalist, if you've won a major, if you are a 22 time NCAA All-American champion, Edward Cheserec, you're awarded accordingly, but your time and successes are what drive the appearance fee. We also have a very deep prize award. It's over a million dollars now. So that's also an incentive for Boston.

Finn (45:45.58)
Mm.

MK Shea (46:02.666)
travel lodging meals. We always try to allow an athlete to bring a plus one who is paid for. If an athlete has a small child, they're always welcome because I'm a mother of four and I'm a grandmother of two. So we like to take care of those babies and just little touches where we can. A training trip. We've had a lot of the Americans come out for a training trip and we'll pay for that and then they get in my car. I drive them out to Hopkins and

Finn (46:10.533)
Mm.

MK Shea (46:30.87)
The coach and I will shadow them and bring them hydration and feed them.

Finn (46:37.454)
I'm not sure exactly how to phrase this question, but like obviously there's certain athletes who are very hot right now. Like they've just had like these, this amazing series of performances in the last one to two years. Obviously they deserve immediate consideration for this pool of athletes. There are also athletes that have a legacy of high performance, but for whatever reason in the last, like let's call it anywhere from two to five years, they've been, they haven't been at that level. And so how long does that latter pool of athletes...

stay in consideration for receiving appearance fees and being catered to for the race and stuff like that and why.

MK Shea (47:13.934)
Yeah, I mean, you're looking at the body of work, right? Because there are interruptions, obviously, for female athletes, there could be pregnancies. For male and female athletes, there could be injuries. So you are acknowledging interruptions in the career, you are also acknowledging the length of a career. You're never discounting the talent and the kibble got

just ran a 67 minute half marathon in Houston at 44 years old. So should she be rewarded? Yes, absolutely. She's a two time Boston champion. Should she be rewarded? Yes. Do we have to think about longevity and diminishing performances? Yes.

But you're really looking at the body of work. But for the pro dev, that's people ranked 30 to 60 in the field. You're trying to afford the people who have had performances, really great performances in the last 18 months or two years, a little bit of an edge over someone who might have PB'd, run a 210 in 2019. So you want to.

award those pro-dev people who are up and coming, who are performing. I just got that inquiry actually from Kenyon coach because I did not take one of his athletes who was slightly better than one of the athletes I did take. But what he didn't take into consideration was his athlete, that performance was now four years old and the athlete I did take was one year old. But the athlete I did take had so many more accomplishments overall.

Finn (48:54.575)
Mm.

MK Shea (49:08.798)
in comparison despite the close time. So it's not just one thing. So when coaches come up and would say to a recruiter, but my guy's faster. Yes, your guy did perform faster, but your guy also ran a 230, a 245, and a 250 in the same year. This kid might've run 208, but he has also done X, Y, and Z.

Finn (49:34.76)
Yeah.

MK Shea (49:35.446)
But you do have to be transparent and you do have to have a reason for everybody on that starting line because there are going to be people that you turn away and there has to be a reason you turn them away as well.

Finn (49:48.958)
Hmm. I'm also curious about the race week and the race day experience. And for context on the trail running side of things, uh, with few exceptions, we're still at this point in the sport where the elite athletes walk to the same start line in concert with sort of the age groupers and stuff like that. They exit the race when they finish in the same way with like little, little numbers of handlers, if any, around them throughout the race at aid stations. It's typically.

you know, loved ones, family, maybe local area fans helping them out. But it's, it's fairly underwhelming in that sense. Like you, except for the fact that they're at the front of the race, you couldn't really tell that they're different than anybody else in the race. Can you contrast that with maybe the way elites at Boston are treated in the lead up and like how they're like, you know, maybe bus to the start line or whatever and how they're taken away and who handles them throughout the race?

MK Shea (50:47.434)
Yeah. And I think one of the differences, it just kind of came to me when you were saying that. I mean, I love that about trail running is that you feel like you are running the same race as everybody else and having the same accoutrements, so to speak, as everybody else. What I think drives that though, is that for the pro field at a race like Boston is that, let's just take personal hydration, for an example. You can't afford someone

There can't be any unfair advantage. You know what I mean? So everybody has to, I can't be there handing my husband a special treat at mile 72 because he's my husband. And then next to him, the person doesn't get a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because I'm not related to him. Right. So there's a little bit of a difference there, but the difference it's, it's not very

big because everyone has to get bused out to Hopkinton. So in Boston, you're all bused out there. You get seated according to your time. And the pros do start separate and early because we can control that. And the reason for the separate start for the men and the women, A, for the women, they know who they're competing against. So it's not a mixed race. It's women against women. So they can see their competitors and the men the same way they can see the men.

But by having a separate start, you can also control any issues that may come up in rules and regulations. We can't test everybody in the open field. Although when you sign for any race, you are subject to random drug testing for any race that is USATF certified or World Athletic certified. But we can control vetting each of those athletes so we can look at their history and understand if there's been any infractions in the past. So that's why part of the reason we have the separate start.

Others, obviously media value so that the media can cover those athletes as well. But as far as transportation, one thing that is really, really cool is that we staged them all in downtown Boston and we have four buses. They could really fit on two, but if one bus breaks down, we need to then get them to three and if two buses break down, we need to get them to two. So we think of everything. So we have four buses, everybody's spread out, but the stateys.

MK Shea (53:13.11)
motorcycles will lead us out to the Mass Pike, which is the main thoroughfare going out to the race start for your listeners. And they actually close down the highway and escort the pros out to the start. And it's very quick and it's just an amazing thing, especially if you've ever driven in Boston to be escorted by the state troopers out to the starting line. So that's really cool. And then we're at a tent outdoors on the Hopkinson Common, but it is covered.

The masses are also staged at a school and they have some covering and tents as well. So not too much of an advantage there. But you know for the pros there is a call out for media. They get to wave. You get to see those stars out there.

Finn (54:00.914)
Hmm. Maybe one last question sort of on this front before we talk about Boston specifically and like this coming races, men's and women's fields. If you were a race director in the trail running world and you had little to no budget, so things were extremely tight and you had to be pretty crafty about this whole process, how would you approach it? Like what are some things that are again like in your skill set or your toolkit?

irrespective of budget that you can deploy to get a really strong field at your race.

MK Shea (54:37.778)
I have been in that situation before, but I would leverage setting, opportunity, prize awards, other awards, anything you can get from sponsors. I mean, let's just go way back. I would host the Turkey Trot for the Marshall Youth Roadrunner kids, any kid in town. I went to probably about

seven different supermarkets and for each one I said I need 20 turkeys. Putting on this race need 20 turkeys. Well by the end of the day every single kid who showed up at that turkey trot got a turkey and then I would repurpose trophies, recycle trophies, put them back together, get a new placard that said three-year-old champion of the 20 whatever turkey trot. They would get a trophy if they podiumed. So

at any size race you can always approach people for. I mean, who doesn't love some swag? I mean, we were listening yesterday, Tarzan Allison Brown's granddaughter came to visit the BA offices and she was talking about, the, you know, he went to the 1936 Olympics. He won Boston, the second Native American to win Boston. And,

One of his prizes was a bathrobe. He won a marathon and got a bathrobe. What did he do with the bathrobe? Well, he put it on, he wore it to the awards ceremony. He got a second bathrobe. He gave it to his wife when he came home. I mean, there's always something that can incentivize someone to run. But if the race is intriguing enough and challenging enough and has enough spark to it, wouldn't you as a trail runner want to run it?

I mean, there are people who are 212, 213, 210 marathoners who are coming to run Boston because they want to run Boston. There are masters runners who are, let's see, one of my fastest master runners is coming from, where is he coming from? Slovakia. He's a 215 guy. He's coming because he wants to run Boston. We have it pretty. I mean, there is...

MK Shea (56:59.914)
that factor, that X factor from Boston. But for other races, I think you have to just build that X factor, you know what I mean? I mean, why would you want to run the Vermont 100? You get to slug through the mud, up and down Mount Ascutney, cross like rivers, like why do you want to do that?

Finn (57:10.205)
I do.

Finn (57:21.21)
I wouldn't want to do it.

Finn (57:28.065)
So I have a hard time answering that question, but I know that there is a really good answer out there. I'm sure that there are multiple people listening to this talk.

MK Shea (57:33.034)
I mean, it's a hard sport, right? A lot of people are paying to get their way here to run this race. I mean, I have had athletes say, it's just too expensive to find a hotel room in Boston. I can't run this race. And it's like a 228 woman. It's really, it's harsh. It's a hard sport, yeah. As far as the funding goes.

Finn (57:49.905)
Yeah.

Finn (58:00.094)
I got to ask you one more sort of X's and O's question, because we've spent a lot of time, you know, giving race directors a sense of what they could do, how they could be empowered in the situation. How about for athletes? Do you have any advice to athletes on how they can or should? Just ask.

MK Shea (58:15.75)
Just ask. If you need something, just ask. Because if you don't ask and you're just on the sidelines complaining about it, you'll never know. Just ask. Hey, can you accommodate me in this way? Just ask. Because if you don't ask, we don't know.

Finn (58:36.574)
Cool. Yeah.

MK Shea (58:37.17)
I mean, I've run down to Marathon Sports to buy a pair of shoes because someone didn't have the right shoes. Just ask. You know, we will try our best to accommodate you.

Finn (58:47.186)
Cool. All right, turning towards this year's Boston, I know in the past you've said that, like when you're building these fields, it's not just about quality, it's about you want this exciting depth of field where it's not certain that the best in the field are gonna win this thing. And do you feel like you've accomplished that with this year's men's and women's fields?

MK Shea (59:04.554)
I do. I was, I will be honest with you, I was a little bit nervous going into this year because it's an Olympic year. And I was getting a little bit of rumors going around that, you know, some of the East African runners who are very talented because they were waiting on Olympic selection, because sometimes what Kenny and Ethiopia will do is they say, well, we're going to name 10 athletes and this is going to be our Olympic prospect team. But what they're doing is they're telling those 10 athletes that they need to hold on till almost the summertime.

and possibly perform again in the spring to be in consideration. So that means you might get some people diverting to flatten fast and paste marathons to, everybody has hope, right? All runners have hope. All runners think they are gonna make that Olympic team. That element of hope is what keeps you getting out the door every day. So I thought it was gonna be challenging, which it was. I had to work.

a bit harder in Olympic years, obviously, because you don't have the star power of those top Americans and some of the other notables because they're either skipping over a spring marathon to run the Olympics because they already know their spot is secured or they have to go to another race to get that Olympic standard to be considered for their country's team. Having said that, you just keep working.

And I mean, even the morning of our men's announcement, I had added a two-time Olympian from the UK. So you never stop working. You never stop trying. Last second. You never stop trying. But it continues up until once we start to ask for travel plans, because we will book their travel, the people who don't sign that travel form right away, then you're thinking, OK, something's going wrong with training. They might be a little nicked up.

Finn (01:00:39.994)
It's to the last second.

MK Shea (01:00:59.042)
They know they have a few more weeks. I'm gonna keep an eye on that person and I'm gonna nag them a little bit to fill out the form. But if the form doesn't get filled out by the second deadline, then we really have to talk about it and see what's happening. Last year, Helen O'Berry, who won our race, phenomenal athlete, world champion medalist, Olympic, two-time Olympian, she was basically on a waiting list because the budget was spent.

The field was full, but I got a drop at the last minute, Sharon Locarty, who had won New York. So a little bit of the budget freed up. And I said, hey, Helen, if you want to get in here, and she told her coach, Dathan Ritzenheim, who's also an American Olympian, I don't want to run Boston, the field's too deep. There's too many talented women. And Dathan, who has run and performed well in Boston, said, no, you need to run Boston. And thankfully she ran Boston. She's...

one of the few women to double at both spots in New York, which she did this past year. So it's tough working on it. And then the decision with the US trials because a lot of the US runners wanted to double, but you can't take the risk as a recruiter to have this large contingent of Americans that you're spending budget on when they have to run a marathon.

Finn (01:02:22.622)
Mm.

MK Shea (01:02:23.81)
seven weeks before your race. So in a lot of the contracts, we will have a clause that says you can't run a marathon 90 to 60 days before Boston or 90 to 60 days after Boston. Because we're not just looking for the athletes who want to pay out. We want the focus to be Boston. So we're not gonna have you allowed to make an income from say Paris or Tokyo, and then come to Boston and run here because we know.

Finn (01:02:39.378)
Yeah.

MK Shea (01:02:51.702)
you will not be focused and you will not be at your full fitness. So the decision for Boston was obviously does had to come back as a champion and she wanted to double in 2020 before the Olympic foot, before the pandemic that was canceled. So we knew she could double and plus she's the 50 K record holder. So we know she has that grit in her. And then Emma Bates was back on track, but was injured for two injured to prep for the trial. So she's on the list. So that gives me two women.

So on the men's side, I'm like, who are the top two men that I know can handle a double? Well, an obvious is CJ Albertson, who just set a 50K record. And he ran Sacramento, and then one week later got the Olympic standard, and his time differential was like 10 seconds difference. It was absolutely phenomenal. That kid is kind of like a Yuki Kawauji.

So we went two men, two women, and the men's side also, Matt McDonald, he's a BA high performance kid. He's very smart too, he's a doctoral student at MIT. He came in 10th and Boston in a really deep field. So we knew he could handle it because he lives here and he knows the course. So having said that, I went deep on different countries and fast, it's the fastest women's field ever recorded. And then the men's side, similar.

Finn (01:03:47.971)
Yeah.

Finn (01:04:13.156)
Well.

Finn (01:04:17.39)
That freshness clause is so interesting.

MK Shea (01:04:20.029)
If anyone's interested in names, you can just go on bma.org and you can find 50L release in the names there. But it is crazy because when you do...

this recruiting, it's really interesting because in Boston, you may have to look like 20 deep and then you find someone like who won New York or someone who won an Olympic medal. So it's not just the times, it's what their accomplishments are. Seldom is the person with the fastest time, seldom do they win Boston. I think it's only happened once or twice.

Meb was like 14th on the list or something like that when he won.

Finn (01:05:10.382)
Well, two things, one, that freshness clause is so interesting. And I'm not sure that exists in our sport, although I think it would make a lot of sense for a lot of different races to require that athletes are showing up to the line well rested at the end of a continuous training block. That's it's really interesting to do that, but I'm guessing because there's a relatively large amount of money on the line that you're investing in them. It makes sense from that as like an insurance policy in the sense.

MK Shea (01:05:36.19)
Yeah, I mean, there are a number of those kinds of clauses and every race does different. Some incentivize with the time bonus, some incentivize with a DNF reduction or a time reduction. So recruiters and race directors can also use that and that extends your budget because then say you had a hundred dollars to spend for your budget, you can go up to 125 because you know that overage will be returned to you with time deductions or DNSs.

Finn (01:05:47.456)
Yeah.

MK Shea (01:06:05.66)
or DNFs.

Finn (01:06:08.122)
One of the last questions I want to ask you is just sort of about like the environment we're operating in. And you kind of talked about this earlier, but it seems like your biggest challenge isn't competing against a particular race, but it's this culture. Like you said, where it's. You have the latest shoes, the latest coaching, lettuce, nutrition, the pace or assistance. And that creates this super strong allure to run as fast as possible. And when you, when you're competing against that environment, I'm curious, are you seeing that like?

MK Shea (01:06:31.693)
Yes.

Finn (01:06:38.874)
the average age of the top competitors is getting older because they're waiting longer into their careers to do Boston. Um, or are you finding that this is less about the interest in running fast and it's sort of like a war of convincing people that like, they like both options, but I can convince them to do Boston instead of running necessarily on this like super fast course. Like, how do you think about that?

MK Shea (01:07:00.83)
Yeah, that's definitely intriguing. Boston can be a very fast course, as you know, I mean, from some of the past racing here. We had that 203.02 from Jeffrey Mutai way back. But.

MK Shea (01:07:21.25)
The fast, this need to go fast is intriguing to me, especially in this Olympic lead up, because Paris is gonna be a rolling hilly course, and it's gonna be a championship style. There's no pacing, it's rolling. So do you wanna mimic that at least once in your career before you go there? I mean, even if you took Kipchoge as an example, we wanted him to be ready for Boston.

Finn (01:07:42.735)
Yeah.

MK Shea (01:07:52.074)
And we wanted him to want to come to Boston. And we wanted him to get the goals. You know, he wanted to break two. That was the goal. Like what are these athletes goals? We always take that into consideration. We want them to come to Boston because they're ready to run Boston and because they want to run Boston.

Finn (01:08:14.062)
Last question, I promise. And I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. This has been great. I know that Boston area people, because I'm from the area, I know Boston area fans are exceptionally educated about this race in the competitive fields. But beyond that, I'm sure you think about this a bit, like what are your thoughts on how to present the race so that you're simultaneously.

MK Shea (01:08:15.81)
Thank you.

MK Shea (01:08:20.206)
No, that's fine.

MK Shea (01:08:30.966)
Yes.

Finn (01:08:39.754)
educating and you're creating more fans for this elite part of the sport because it's something that we're struggling with and trail where like

MK Shea (01:08:46.871)
I think all of running struggles with it. Do you know what I mean? I think, oh, I mean, can you name the, who won the Olympics, the Olympic marathon, the female? Which female won the Olympic marathon in Tokyo? I know the answer.

Finn (01:09:00.358)
I just know Molly Seidel got the bronze a couple years back, right?

MK Shea (01:09:02.226)
Yes, good job. Perez-Jepson's here, won. But it is, it's a constant battle to story tell. And yeah, the Boston fans do know, they, I mean, it is really kind of phenomenal to go out on that course and see people running there all the time and yelling out names of people I bring to train there, which is awesome.

But there's also a lot of track meets in Boston now too, especially indoors. It's kind of become a focal point for indoor running, especially at BU and some of the records that are being set and at the New Balance track, the new New Balance track. So yeah, and they're always packed. The stands are packed with people just coming to watch these formal races. Maybe that's part of it too. Like is our country, is the only focal point, one city and state for these?

amazing performances. I don't know what the answer is. Yeah. Maybe it's just if you're interested then you're interested.

Finn (01:10:03.291)
I just.

Finn (01:10:07.074)
Yeah, I just, it's, it's amazing that in like the 1880s and the 1890s, pedestrianism was so popular and there was like, I guess, cause maybe betting was involved going back to betting, but, um, anyways, Mary, Kate, this has been incredible. I've learned a ton. I'm sure the audience has as well. Do you have any final calls to action or thoughts before we go?

MK Shea (01:10:11.586)
Yeah.

MK Shea (01:10:17.598)
That's true. That's true. Yeah.

Oh my god.

MK Shea (01:10:29.151)
Anyone?

Finn (01:10:30.426)
Any calls to action or sort of thoughts to leave listeners with before we go?

MK Shea (01:10:35.05)
No, I'm just like so happy for your audience. I love ultra running so much and what a great experience it is. And you have some great top performers and inspirational and it's just such a great sport. Love it. Running is it's just part of who you are. Makes people happy. Keep up the good work everybody.