Long Run Archives #15 | Black Canyon 100K Recap, Golden Ticket Outlooks, Doping In Trail Running

Finn (00:01.31)
All right, this is Long Run Archives number 15. I'm joined by Brad Hornig, Jeff Colton, Corrine Malcolm. It is so great to have you three here. On the docket for discussion, we've got the Black Canyon 100K, current Western field, look ahead to Canyon's 100K, tragic passing of Kelvin Kipdom, Steon Angerman's positive doping test post CCC. We might have more, but that's a lot to get into. Starting with the Black Canyon 100K.

Jeff, you were texting a group of runners post-race. You said you had some good conversations. Kind of triggered some thoughts on the sport in this current moment where things are headed. What do you got for us?

Jeff Colt (00:45.182)
So much. I'll start at the first part of that, which was, yeah, I was chatting with a couple of the runners after Black Canyon's 100K to get a feel for what the race felt like, whether we've been talking about these trends in our sport of the elites are no longer fading late in races. There's no more time for the random baller runners. Everything's getting so much faster. Or is it just the fact that it was a very

cool day and cool temperatures typically lead to faster times. So a lot of insights and takeaways. I think the

The short of it in my opinion is this is definitely the most talented ultrafield assembled on US soil for men and women. The Blackhend 100K was incredibly deep in a way that Western states isn't able to be in a way that maybe JFK is too late in the season to be harkening back to the White River 50 mile days. And

North Face, 50 mile days. It really did seem like a championship level race that went on in early February, which is wild.

Finn (02:06.126)
Corinne, one thing I've been curious about, like with this year's version of Black Canyon, is a lot of these golden ticket races, they kind of serve as like a means to an end. Has Black Canyon outstripped that label and become its own entity, kind of like Jeff was hinting at?

Corrine (02:21.277)
So I think two things. One, Liam actually sent us, maybe it was Travis Loncar. Oh God, one of our stats boys, sent us the top 10 and top 20 ITRA ranked runners for both the 2023 and 2024 Black Canyon and Western States 2023. And technically the Black Canyon fields were on par or a little bit stronger, particularly if you took Ingvild Kaspersson out of the women's Black Canyon field because her ITRA score was like,

like way higher, it was kind of an outlier in that sense. Then, but, so 2020, 24 was stronger than 2023, but Western States, because it has the highest possible really like itch points coming in with someone like Courtney, for example, the, if we looked at just that number, you could say, technically speaking, Western States was a little bit stronger, but I think the depth of the field here would be the counterpoint to that, that depth.

and the ability to have more and more elites in it made it stronger from a outstrip the golden ticket title. I think that Black Canyon has always attracted people that might want a competitive race outside of a golden ticket because of the timing of it, this February timing on domestic soil. But I think what we saw this year was that on steroids, just like really, really setting itself apart as this 100K season opener.

Finn (03:41.567)
Mm.

Corrine (03:47.869)
building towards something else. Maybe it's a hundred mile, but if we saw someone like MK Sullivan who didn't want the ticket and is going to go race shorter for the rest of the season, still want to be in this hundred K field. And I think that is very telling.

Finn (04:01.054)
I hope she gives it another go. I want her on the 100K scene a little bit longer.

Corrine (04:04.069)
Yeah. My hot take from Black Canyon is that we all need to be doing our ankle exercises, both like mobility and stability. Because I think many of the DNFs on both sides were big old ankle

Finn (04:19.266)
What do you think, Brett? Where's your mind at post race?

Brett Hornig (04:22.404)
Yeah, I think what Jeff and Corinne said are totally on point. Black Canyon is just turning into a world-class race. And we're hearing more and more too in some of the previous interviews, oh, I just want to be here because that's where everyone is. I just want to race people. And it's pretty amazing that we see... I mean, yeah, we definitely did still see some blowups and some drops, but the depth of the finishers, the times, the people that just kept rolling in. I mean, yeah, we were...

they're calling the finish and it was like there was hardly any downtime, which you just normally don't see over a, you know, eight, nine hour race.

Corrine (05:00.869)
Yeah, the top 10 spread was super, super tight. The top 20 spread was tight.

Brett Hornig (05:04.912)
Yeah, and we're just seeing people sprinted in, having to hold people off in the last quarter mile, which is, I don't know, that's just some nightmare juice, but that's just what we're seeing in races like this now. And yeah, that's really exciting. It's just cool to see that that's where a race like this is headed.

Corrine (05:25.909)
Courtney DeWalter is gonna run Black Canyon in 2025. I have no doubt.

Jeff Colt (05:31.621)
same.

Brett Hornig (05:31.793)
I hope so. Let's see it. The way too early prediction.

Corrine (05:32.821)
calling it right now.

Finn (05:38.514)
If it does become sort of like the early season version of TNF, San Francisco back in the late 2010s, I do like that idea of it just being its own Island and maybe, maybe Jim Walmsley wants to come as well for the first time. I'm actually surprised he hasn't run it yet, given that he's like an Arizona native, it's his backyard that he had. I mean, Schedule shake out the way they do. He has certain priorities, but I would love to see him there as well. That'd be fun. Jim and Courtney headlining 25.

Corrine (06:05.949)
Let's make it happen. Well, our people will call their people.

Brett Hornig (06:07.071)
Yep.

Jeff Colt (06:11.169)
I think one of the comments from Eric Lipuma who finished seventh was that last year it almost seemed like with cooler temps, the greater running scene saw Anthony, Tom, and Janouche break the mold and prove that you can really send it under eight hours and that maybe people need to go out even faster.

Finn (06:12.331)
Go ahead, Jeff.

Jeff Colt (06:40.293)
than the already very fast pace at Black Canyon. But looking at both that benchmark year last year as well as the last couple of years, we had a 75 degree year in 2022, about a 60 degree year in 2023 and a 50 or so degree year in 2024. So cool temps like...

Going back to some 2017, 2018, Jim Walmsley interviews from Western States around course record possibility or plausibility, cool temperatures definitely do impact that late race attrition. And I think the blowups we saw here were more due to folks running their legs off than dehydration or heat effects.

Brett Hornig (07:37.044)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (07:38.817)
And one other small note, chatting with John Ray about the kind of comparing.

The CCC race with this race, in both races, he went out really hard. And in both races, his goal was to be in the mix and try to hold on. And CCC, and then arguably, maybe the only deeper 100K field, he was able to hold on and be right with the top finishers. This year for Black Canyon, it sounded like...

the impact of a flatter, faster, more downhill oriented course just was that much more wear on the body. And interesting to think of the mountain course versus the fast downhill, Black Canyon can be viewed as just an extended marathon. There's so much more muscular damage to the ends of your...

quads and hamstrings as you're actually taking much bigger strides and you're not necessarily getting those eating hiking breaks. So yeah, interesting to think about that strategy in those two parallel races. I had John as my pick for the men's winner. He had a rough day. It seemed like everyone who had a golden ticket had a rough day.

It was definitely a day for the runners who had something to gain as opposed to nothing to lose.

Finn (09:09.874)
One of the things that I lament looking at both of these top tens right now is I want both of these top tens lining up at the 2024 Western States 100. It is such a bummer that you take the golden tickets from this race, whoever takes them at canyons, there's going to be so many people that would make that race exciting that will not be on the starting line that I lament that even though there is something special, of course, about Western States having, uh, you know, a narrower range of selection than an Aerovipa race.

I lament that. I don't know what you guys think.

Corrine (09:41.097)
I mean, I think part of it there too is that you look, I think there's a 33 minute spread between first and 10th on the men's side. I think Steve Kirsch's Instagram post was like, I've been thinking a lot about those 180 seconds. And it's like, it's true. Like, I mean, Eric Lepoum in seventh was five minutes out of a golden ticket. And it's like, you just weren't there when the move was made, basically, even though you guys weren't that far off, off the pack, they didn't run, they didn't run the back 10, 12 miles any.

Brett Hornig (09:49.672)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Hornig (09:55.126)
Yeah.

Corrine (10:10.829)
slower, you know, Craig Hunt, in fact, ran it way faster than everyone else. But it was one of those things where it's like, yeah, it was really, really tight. And there are a bunch of guys and gals just knocking at the door and didn't quite have it this time, which happens every year, right? Golden ticket races, there's always someone, Arroyo Ceo and Anna McKenna last year, I think finished fourth in several golden ticket races, ultimately not getting to be on the start line for Western states. Like, that is the nature of the golden ticket game.

Brett Hornig (10:12.702)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Hornig (10:40.996)
Yeah, it's just all a part of the allure.

Finn (10:41.258)
I love that quote. I've been thinking a lot.

Corrine (10:44.497)
Yeah, I've been thinking a lot for those 180 seconds.

Finn (10:47.653)
Sorry, Brett, I interrupted you.

Brett Hornig (10:48.852)
Yeah, I mean, that's just the allure of the coveted Western States golden ticket. It's like, I mean, yeah, you want to see all 10 of these start Western States, but the fact of the matter is like on this particular day, you know, fourth through 10th weren't good enough to qualify their way into Western States. So it's like, you know, and we're getting to the point now where, you know, there was eight under eight hours and we're talking.

about where do I shave one more minute off midway through the race. And no one's talking about, oh, I shouldn't have my, you know, I spent too much time at this aid station. I've yet to hear someone say like they wasted too much aid station time. And so far it's just been simply all about the running bits.

Corrine (11:32.229)
Yeah, Becca Wendell did not grab the right root or prickly plant to get out of the river. It's just little mistakes made a big difference out there.

Brett Hornig (11:41.356)
Oh, it's the river crossing of the century. So, so amazing.

Finn (11:44.674)
Can you guys recount that? Because I totally, I was in the, I missed the live stream moment. Talk about that for anyone that missed it. Recount that moment.

Corrine (11:51.485)
Well, Rachel previewed that section, I didn't know that, but she had recced that section, and she's like, I knew the bush to grab onto. Yeah.

Brett Hornig (11:55.324)
Oh, I mean that makes sense now because she, yeah. No way. Like those are the details. Those are the details right there. But basically what had happened was we were watching the live stream. It was an epic drone footage and there was a pretty good sized river crossing that started out. Corinne, do you remember? What mile was that at?

Finn (12:02.107)
Oh my gosh.

Finn (12:05.88)
Ha ha ha!

Corrine (12:15.598)
It's just down the hill on your way up to Table Mesa. So I think it's like probably 49, yeah.

Brett Hornig (12:20.248)
Yeah, okay. It's like 49. Okay. So it's like a pretty good amount is like ankle deep and you're just kind of trudging through it. But then right towards the end of the river, you go through this deeper section and then it was hard to tell from the drone footage, but then turns out the embankment that you go up was pretty steep and definitely pretty wet, slippery. Rachel appeared to hop up it like no problem, like two step and then was just out and then Becca Wendell like went up.

slid down, put a foot up, that foot slid, and then all of a sudden 10 seconds was gone and the elastic had broke. And then turns out that ended up being the move that was able to allow Rachel to eventually pull away and create a gap. And I just can't believe we got to see it with the drone footage and it was a river crossing. Like the details and I didn't know that Rachel had known which bush to grab onto. Like that's amazing.

Corrine (13:17.957)
Yeah, it was when you get those select moments, when you don't miss the passes, when you don't, like we got to actually see Chris Meyer and Gus Gibbs, although we could not identify them initially, like make the move to like accelerate past John Ray earlier in the race, like, you know, somewhere after, I guess, somewhere after Deep Canyon Ranch, like they attacked John on a little climb and like just left him in the dust, essentially. So we got to catch a couple of those little moments that were really, really special.

Brett Hornig (13:33.829)
Hmm.

Jeff Colt (13:48.205)
I want to, I was going to say, I want to push back on Brad a little bit. And this is maybe just the, like the optimist in me speaking, but I don't think that runners fourth through 10th weren't good enough per se. I actually think they're all good enough. Like, this was a celebration of a lot of runners having an excellent day. And when you look at those 180 seconds, when you look at those five minutes, you know,

Finn (13:48.234)
It was amazing. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Corrine (14:09.172)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (14:16.245)
when you like kind of scale through it all, it's not that any individual necessarily was lacking. Like a number of amazing runners had amazing days on Saturday and...

Corrine (14:28.125)
Well, they all PR'd. Like everyone that had run the race before PR'd. Like, you know, they just happened to be like, I was talking to Eric about this and it was like, you know, you ran a hundred, like a hundred percent ran to his potential. And it was like there just happened to be six other guys that also ran to their potential that day and were just ahead of him.

Brett Hornig (14:31.546)
Oh yeah, no doubt.

Jeff Colt (14:32.023)
Yeah.

Jeff Colt (14:41.006)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (14:41.213)
Totally.

Jeff Colt (14:48.014)
And I think that goes to this greater trend, I think of like, oh, you're not seeing as many kind of mess-ups at the front of the field. Things are so much more dialed at the front of the field, like, et cetera. Yeah, when we assemble 60 world-class guys and 40 world-class ladies to show up at a race, you can count that...

Brett Hornig (14:48.229)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (15:14.293)
it's going to be more than one person that's going to have their day out there. As Coach Corrine told me before Western States, like, you know, it can be anyone's day and that includes you. Like when there's that much talent, it's going to be more than one person that's going to have a hell of a day. And going back to like the right route to grab out of the river, like those details, like that's really detail-oriented and amazing.

Finn (15:36.302)
Amazing.

Jeff Colt (15:41.993)
I ran this race in road shoes. Hubertier ran this race in road shoes. At the end of the day, it is running and you show up with what you got and do it and you can definitely be more calculated. The fact that Hayden got that course record by less than two minutes, yeah, that likely is attributable to both hard work and practicing aid stations and stuff that he's been accredited with.

Finn (16:10.218)
Right before this episode, I was listening to the SWAT podcast. David and Megan were doing their Black Canyon recap and they were talking about how pre-race they had one of their coaching conversations with Becca Wendell. And David asks Becca, what are your intentions for this race? And Becca's like, here are my A, B and C goals. A goal is to win the race. B goal is top three. C goal is finish. And first of all, that's awesome. Like I love that confidence heading into the race, but

as a selfish media person, the first thing that I thought was, Brett, Leah and I, how do we establish these quote unquote league sources or anonymous sources, aka coaches who can feed us Intel to these preview episodes, because that is, that's, that's critical. I totally left her out of my top 10, I think, because, you know, I wasn't aware of that confidence heading in and

Corrine (16:58.045)
Dark horses like to be dark horses though. Like it's one of those things where it's like, you might, you might say that in confidence to your coach, right? But you don't necessarily want to show those cards to the world quite yet. Then you'd have to also keep it anonymous. I mean, like I heard a runner who will leave unnamed who's not on your fantasy free trail top 10 is gonna win it. So maybe reconsider some people like that's very vague.

Brett Hornig (17:01.02)
Hehehe

Finn (17:08.34)
Yeah.

Finn (17:16.995)
Ha ha

Brett Hornig (17:19.577)
Yeah. And then.

And then you're just winning Fantasy Free Trail with insider info, taking home all the Hoka gear.

Corrine (17:25.533)
That's inside training.

Finn (17:30.41)
Oh my gosh. One thing that I wanna observe or just note on this pod is like this whole concept of longevity in the sport. Like this race kind of brought it to the surface for me. Like, I guess we can, you can kind of be finicky about what you define as longevity. For me, it's like if you've been at the top of the sport for five plus years, I consider you to be like a longevity success type runner. And I feel like Rachel Drake,

and Hayden Hawks fit into those two buckets. And I'm just blown away that, you know, like Hayden has been in the sport since 2016. He came into it with a win right off the bat at the speed of 50K. And here we are eight years later in a sport that it's hard to stay at the top for a long time. He's had valleys, but like, he just registered a performance that was as good or better than he's ever had in his career. And then I'll say one more thing, but like,

The same with Rachel. Like, what do you guys think about this? Like, Jeff, being a pro in the sport, like this has to be top of mind for you. Like, how long can I be great at this? And when you see them doing this for, you know, years on end, on repeat, does it inspire confidence in you? Like, how do you think about it?

Jeff Colt (18:45.045)
Yeah, great question. Hayden's a hard person to compare myself to. I will fully say, I don't think I've ever had the natural speed and talent that Hayden might have, but I also look at the other elements of running at this level, like the mental game, durability, strength. I definitely don't want to get injured. I don't think Hayden set out to try to get injured. That's...

an unfortunate byproduct of trying to train at a high level. Greatness, there's a lot of different definitions. The only person I look to in terms of greatness, honestly, in sport right now is Courtney. Because she does the hardest races, she does a lot of races, she competes incredibly fast races and the kind of most mountainous races.

I can look at Jeff Browning who's 50 years old and is winning three to 500 mile races every year. And I can aspire for that if that's what I want. Like right now I wanna run as fast as possible at Western States and redefine what that's gonna look like. And if this past year was understanding that sub 20 is the norm at UTMB, I think this crew this year is gonna be pushing sub 14 as the norm at Western States. And like...

I want to be part of that right now, because that's, I think, where my kind of speed and body and pace can aspire toward in terms of longevity.

Jeff Colt (20:28.101)
Tyler Green also comes to mind, right? In that same sense, like Tyler's actually one of the only, he has the best record against me of any runner. We have faced each other three times and he has kicked my ass three times and no one else has done that. But like Tyler, I mean, he's pushing the envelope at age 39, Courtney's pushing the envelope 38, 39.

Finn (20:40.778)
Hahaha.

Corrine (20:52.597)
I mean, Lauren Puretz, yeah, and Lauren Puretz who took the third golden ticket for women is a mom of two, a gynecologist and is 40. Like she did three surgeries on Thursday before flying in for Black Canyon and like didn't know she was in third until she crossed the finish line and she's 40. And I'm just like, yes, like, okay, there is a future here, but I wanna add that. I think Hayden is another example of an athlete too who has the combination of

Finn (20:54.53)
He's 40.

Brett Hornig (20:55.38)
40.

Jeff Colt (20:55.823)
Yeah.

Corrine (21:22.133)
talent, hard work and support. And I think that there are probably some athletes in this field who have the talent and have the hard work, but don't have the same level of support an athlete like Hayden has. And that will start to, we will start to see a gap form potentially at the highest end of our sport in that regard, just because like Hayden's on one of the better contracts in the industry, like has a very supportive wife and family. Like that is not the case.

for everyone in the sport. And so it's like, yeah, hard work and talent will get you so far and get you really far. But that support piece, I think, is going to start to elevate some of the athletes even higher.

Brett Hornig (22:03.472)
Yeah, that's definitely something that we've talked about that on so many past Long Run Archives episodes is like how much more professional you might need to be in order to continually operate at that high of a level year after year. I guess one thought that I had when you were talking about that was at this age, at this day and age in the sport, how does that person who has the talent

Finn (22:08.91)
It's worth repeating them.

Brett Hornig (22:32.248)
even some like really, you know, high achieving results, the work ethic. How do they get that contract? Like there's so many, like we could see in the results. There are so many people to choose from who should get that support, probably could potentially be thrown down Hayden Hawks type results. How does that person make that leap?

Corrine (22:53.029)
Yeah, I think we need the UCI standard, right? The UCI road team standard where there's a minimum living wage, which is probably well above most of our retainers in the sport. And I think that would be a great base threshold, is to go to whatever the UCI. They've already established that for their field, and they have slowly elevated it for the women's teams, because the women's teams, for the longest time, didn't have to meet that threshold. But that goes a long way, right?

Brett Hornig (23:05.076)
Hmm.

Corrine (23:22.933)
they are provided a living wage. So they're making like, I think it's a minimum like 40 or 50,000 euro a year or something is like the minimum contract on like a UCI pro world team.

Brett Hornig (23:32.111)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (23:34.77)
One thing I'll add, and I feel like I've been wrong about this the last two years, because I've been predicting that it's going to come like tomorrow. We have not yet seen like that gap you described, Corinne. We have not yet seen that gap separate between like the consummate pro and this like hybrid person who's still working 30 to 40 hours a week and also training super hard. Like if you look at these Black Canyon results, there's examples of both types of athletes in the top 10. I'm shocked. Like I'm impressed, but I'm shocked.

Brett Hornig (24:04.239)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (24:04.265)
And Finn, we've talked about this quite a bit, but I do think that different runners have different needs and different balances. And I side myself with Leah Yingling on like, yeah, the time that she took off from working this summer, actually she felt like she had more anxiety around running versus she went back to work and felt like she had more balance in her life. It might be...

a component of that mental game and what works in your headspace. I would say this sport is incredibly mental. Obviously, you still need the physical fitness, but there's a huge headspace component to it when it comes to race day. If you have a better balance in life and better overall headspace because you're working part-time or full-time,

things outside of running and take some of that pressure off, that could be an advantage.

Corrine (25:05.653)
So here's my pushback. My pushback though is that if your employer, Jeff, if Zipfit came to you and said, hey Jeff, we're really stoked on the things that you're doing outside of the office here. We are gonna keep you, like you'll keep your benefits, but we're gonna let you go down to 0.6 FTE, right? Like a part-time sort of thing. Maybe not, you know, like, so you're still working. You still have hours of your day dedicated to a job that's mentally stimulating, that's different than what you're doing when you're putting right foot, left foot out there.

for workouts or whatever. Like I think that like, if there was that, would you take it? Like I think going to a zero job for me would not work with my anxiety and stress and all that. But if I could say like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna go to 0.5 FTE or 0.6 FTE and I'm only working 20 hours a week. That sounds like that might be really nice.

Finn (25:47.406)
Thanks for watching!

Brett Hornig (25:56.168)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (25:58.613)
I'm calling unfair, leaving the witness. You know I don't have the time of day to roll out and do the recovery or ever take a nap or do these key things. And yeah, that's part of it, but I'd still choose where I am as opposed to pushing all the chips in. If I pushed all the chips in, I'd end up finding a serious watercolor habit or some type of passion.

Corrine (26:01.053)
Ha ha ha!

Brett Hornig (26:01.848)
Hahaha

Corrine (26:08.017)
Yeah, Coach Corinne has feelings about this.

Finn (26:25.174)
Thank you.

Jeff Colt (26:28.321)
outside of running. I do wanna jump back. I, yeah, I already knit, baked bread, got it going on over here. I wanna jump back to the...

Corrine (26:32.157)
He'd take up netting.

Finn (26:39.202)
Send us some bread.

Corrine (26:39.313)
He's taken, he's taken, he's getting married, it's a whole thing.

Brett Hornig (26:43.878)
Wow.

Jeff Colt (26:44.341)
Want to jump back to the Hayden comment, because Hayden, yeah, he came onto the scene and in the same way that Jim did, there's this like, yeah, is he going to be a flash in the pan? Is there staying power here or is this going to be three years and that runner's burned out? My first introduction to ultra running was working

Finn (26:55.403)
doors off.

Brett Hornig (26:59.501)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (27:10.581)
in public relations for Hoka when both of these guys came onto the scene. That was every conversation I had with journalists and media around the ultra running space was like, can these guys actually keep it up? I think that doubt and pressure earlier in their careers is what maybe forced their hand a little bit to pull back from those 150, 45,000 vert weeks that Jim might've been doing in 2016, 2017.

and dial it back a little bit to look at it in a sustainable perspective. That's something that I think if you have a full-time job, you have a more sustainable outlook on all of this. And we can get into this more with the Cian conversation in a little bit here. But like, I worked my ass off. It took way longer than I ever thought it would to actually get a contract with a sponsor.

It was demoralizing. I quit. I came back from quitting. I didn't think it would ever happen. It did happen eventually, and it did take fully three or four years longer than I hoped it would. If I were to lose my contract, I still have the ability to pay my rent. I still have a lot of things going on. And let me tell you, this DN situation has had me...

all sorts of like, what is this kind of like diuretic false? Like, how does this all pan out? Like, and these contracts, yeah, these contracts aren't like, it's not like, oh, like, you know, we necessarily have your back if you were to get in trouble or even accused of doping. Like some of these contracts are as explicit as if you are accused of doping, you owe the brand back what you've been paid. Like, you know, we're talking about someone's livelihood.

Corrine (28:39.589)
I've gotten all the anxiety attacks, don't worry. I've been fielding them.

Finn (28:42.094)
Thank you.

Brett Hornig (28:42.516)
Hehehe

Jeff Colt (29:02.585)
like with Stian in a very real way. And that's where I've been like, maybe we shouldn't even speculate. Like if there's an, yeah.

Corrine (29:10.673)
It's nice to have several rocks, right? It's nice to have like, you know, things that are stable outside of running. So it's like when my job sucks, running's really nice. Or when running sucks, my job's really nice. Or when I broke my pelvis, it was nice to have other things in my life to like keep things moving smoothly. So there's a balance there. But I do think, I just wonder, you know, like if we took a little bit of Drew Holman's stress away, would he just like, would he be even better than he already is? Like...

Jeff Colt (29:21.073)
Thanks for watching!

Finn (29:38.933)
or Rachel. I mean, Rachel's a doctor, right?

Corrine (29:40.997)
Yeah, yeah. She's been all sorts of levels of levels and iterations of, of stress. Yeah. So curious. It's a lot of speculation.

Finn (29:45.154)
You know, mom. Yeah.

Jeff Colt (29:50.714)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (29:52.358)
That's what this podcast is for.

Finn (29:57.069)
Brett, I have a question for you. We've talked about this, I think, on one of the latest Long Run archives. But if we're talking golden ticket structure, back in 2018, there were five or six American-based golden ticket races. They all took place in that January to April stretch. Now the series is more spread out year round. It's more international.

Races like Black Canyon are weighted more in terms of more golden ticket opportunities. When you think about like how this whole thing has been transformed in the past couple of years, which version of the series do you prefer? And then if you could make any updates to like a 2025 version, what would they be?

Brett Hornig (30:39.26)
So like the immediate knee jerk reaction is always like bring the whole golden ticket series back to the States. Because I just love seeing five high octane golden ticket races like back to back to back to back to back. And people can like drop out of Bandera, come back, get a ticket at, you know, Black Canyon. Someone who misses a Black Canyon gets to throw their hat in the Lake Sonoma, Georgia Death Race. Like, yes, like Emily just goes for three of them and then gets it and then runs well at States. And just as like, and now she's in like.

Corrine (30:59.046)
The Emily Hawgood thing, right? Like three races in a row.

Finn (31:00.715)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (31:07.804)
Like, yeah, the amount of golden ticket races that Emily Hoggart has, you know, turned herself inside out on, like, has earned like five Western states entries. But I think in terms of like moving the whole Golden Ticket Series International, I need like one or two more years of seeing kind of the results play out. I feel like two years ago, it was still not.

quite like a worldwide thing. Like the races were golden ticket races elsewhere, but I feel like it hadn't quite caught on yet like what's going on. And I feel like that's finally starting to take shape. And now I'm really curious to see like how the international golden ticket winners do at Western States, because it feels like it's gotten a little bit more serious. Like we're seeing less, there hasn't been any of these international golden ticket races yet this year to, you know.

not have every single golden ticket accepted. So, yeah, I want to see at least one or two more years because I'm just looking at... Oh, I guess...

Corrine (32:15.853)
It feels weird to say this is the first Golden Ticket race of the year, because it is on technicality, but it's the second to last stop, though, on the Golden Ticket hunt, which we did see. Becca Wendell led the first 50k of the grindstone 100k this year and then came back to run Black Canyon. So we did have a little bit of that story playing out, but not to the same degree of them being US-centric, spring-centric, etc.

Brett Hornig (32:21.019)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Hornig (32:27.996)
I know, it's almost over.

Corrine (32:46.534)
I was a big proponent though of them pushing it to another time of year in parks. I wanted the East Coast to get one. So that was kind of like a bit of that did get solved in that way. But it does feel weird where it's like people have been racing for six months for a golden ticket at this point.

Finn (32:51.732)
Yes. Yeah.

Brett Hornig (32:52.334)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (33:02.058)
Well, Corinne, is it my American bias showing when I say that Javelina and Black Canyon have had the best media presentation? Or is it the case that if I truly analyzed every single race internationally, like Black Canyon and Javelina, the other races measure up to it in terms of live stream stuff like that? Because like what I worry about or what I wonder about, not one at Grindstone.

Corrine (33:21.609)
There wasn't one at Grindstone this year at all. And Doi Enthanon was like, it's some, but it was kind of, I think, like a hard stream to follow from a timing perspective. I think that, I mean, obviously CCC had great coverage. But yeah, Havalina and Black Canyon definitely like knocked it out of the park. And I have no idea if there are any plans for canyons, because we were supposed to livestream canyons last year. And then at the last, at like the 11th hour, UTMB was like, no, our guys were there two weeks ago

connectivity and didn't want to do it. And so that's where Dylan and I ran an ethernet cable from the newspaper office to the expo area to run our little pseudo live stream. So it's like, yeah, the Mountain Outpost, I think, is who gets the kudos on that front for being a pioneer in the North American takeover of live streaming. And we had a Japanese live stream for Black Canyon, including in like...

Finn (34:15.126)
Yeah. Sweet.

Corrine (34:20.801)
on course commentators for the Japanese channel. Like that was next level.

Finn (34:26.822)
And because another thing, the news was made public today, which Thursday, February or Tuesday, February 13th, Gorge is getting a live stream. Big Alta is getting a live stream in my mind. Those are two perfect race series to add golden tickets to, especially if the big Alta can add maybe a slightly longer distance, like a 50 mile or a hundred K. Yeah, I don't know. Like I'm just seeing moves made by Mountain now post and free trail and daybreak and like that, it'd be pretty cool.

Corrine (34:52.721)
It's the free trail takeover. Yeah, well, we got our person on the board on the inside, so we'll see. I think technically he's on the selection committee for the Golden Ticket Races, so I feel like that's insider trading, I think. But I mean, Gorge, so when I, the highest I've ever finished in a Golden Ticket Race is fourth, and it was my first 100K at the Gorge 100K when it was still a Golden Ticket Race. And so it was like, yeah, it was Amanda Basham.

Brett Hornig (34:59.378)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (35:04.255)
Hopefully he doesn't have to abstain.

Corrine (35:18.597)
Jodi Adamsmore, Keely and I just like duking it out. It was super fun. Ashley Urba, that name probably doesn't ring a bell for certain folks, but she was a flash in the pot a little bit in the sport and it was amazing. But like Gorge was a great golden ticket race. Like this early April timing, it was an awesome, awesome golden ticket opportunity. So who knows, maybe that means we're getting some other stateside golden tickets after this year.

Brett Hornig (35:24.015)
Mmm.

Brett Hornig (35:30.184)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (35:45.11)
Before we talk canyons, does anybody have any final thoughts or points they want to make about this past weekend?

Corrine (35:53.193)
Shamil is our hero.

Jeff Colt (35:55.229)
Yeah, I stand by that again. If there was an award for trail runners person of the year, give it to Jamil year after year. I mean, the...

Brett Hornig (35:55.316)
Dude, yeah.

Finn (35:55.362)
Does he get person of the year again?

Brett Hornig (35:58.771)
Yeah.

Corrine (36:04.633)
Yeah. We call it the Bill Duper award on our like end of year free trail podcast. And I've like, I joke every year that I want, we want to give it to Jamil. And I'm like, we'll have to choose someone else this year. But yeah, that guy does not sleep. I'm pretty sure. And like still is. It's they're getting it done too. I mean, literally because of the delay, last thing I'll say, because of the delay on Saturday to that nine 30 start, that meant they had until 6am to finish. The next live broadcast started at 6 30.

Jeff Colt (36:08.929)
Yeah.

Jeff Colt (36:17.401)
He's pulled his whole family into it, it's wild.

Brett Hornig (36:20.801)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Corrine (36:32.349)
So there were people that like, I don't know if they slept in that little trailer by the finish line to keep the live broadcast up for like, you know, almost 30 hours straight basically.

Brett Hornig (36:45.06)
Yeah, I mean, if a single track podcast ever does some awards type thing, just call it the Jamil Khoury Award and then just give it to Jamil every year. Like a Walter Payton Man of the Year award goes to Walter Payton.

Finn (36:53.53)
Thank you.

Corrine (36:56.093)
This feels like an episode from The Office.

Jeff Colt (36:58.317)
There we go.

Corrine (37:01.397)
ultra patent.

Jeff Colt (37:03.237)
Um, the only thing I was going to share is back to the, the golden tickets being stateside and like this ability to like chase one after another, after another. I mean, that's also coming from a pretty real place of privilege. Uh, like the reason I did Bandera three different times was it was the first race of the year. And like, ideally I would get it then and be able to, you know, have longer to train, but also like.

maybe it would give me enough time to figure out how to afford to get to the next race, to get to Canyons or to get to Sean O'Brien when it was still then in April. It's great that was an opportunity. I think anyone who's coming from a place with a sponsor and has support, I don't know why you wouldn't just register for every Golden Ticket race from the get-go and you can always drop out of them later. But...

my path to getting to Western States was pretty parallel to my attempts at trying to get a shoe sponsor or some support in the trail running space. Definitely messed with my head a lot. Talking about this with you all last night, I was having some weird emotions and flashbacks to just being so discouraged. Not getting what I wanted at Bandera, coming in third.

and reaching out to other race directors and then telling me that there was no spot for me in the race. And another year I missed out on Western States. And deep in my core, I knew if I could get to Western States, I was confident I could get top 10 and then just get invited back. And I'll say right now, I'm happy I was not racing for a golden ticket on Saturday. I think...

Finn (38:42.299)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (38:56.949)
my placing top 10 last year was an easier route back into States than trying to come in the podium at Black Canyon. And I'm sure there's runners out there, competitors who are coming off this weekend feeling that and you should feel like all the feels right now, but keep grinding at it. Because I think...

I know Cole Watson was up there with four attempts. I think I was three attempts over five years. Western State is a really cool race. It's not the end-all be-all, but it can be a long road to get there.

Brett Hornig (39:25.573)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (39:36.891)
Yeah.

Finn (39:38.571)
One more thing I'll add because I was internally debating this the past maybe six or eight months but I started to wonder maybe late last year if golden tickets were becoming lower status single signal emblems in our sport. Like there was like a level of runner like the Corking is in gyms where they would never have to quote unquote stoop down again to acquire a golden ticket into Western States. I now believe that is no longer the case and I regret entertaining those thoughts. Like I think. I think.

anybody that is no longer in Western states and has to fight their way back in, it is an incredibly high status signal move to go for a golden ticket and to fight for one and to get one. Like, again, I'm sharing my inner thoughts. I didn't have to be publicly wrong, but I'm going to be publicly wrong. You know, this is all internal.

Corrine (40:14.277)
This is why I volunteer.

Brett Hornig (40:17.074)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (40:18.45)
I am.

Jeff Colt (40:23.482)
Yeah, I mean, Jim got a golden ticket, right?

Corrine (40:24.074)
I'm cashing in. I'm gonna cash in eventually on my year over year volunteer status at Western States and be like, I think I should get a, what do they call them? Not board spots, but the like, delegated volunteer spots.

Brett Hornig (40:35.741)
Oh.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Corrine (40:39.685)
Yeah, when I'm 40, Craig, I'm coming for that. Thanks. Yeah, race admin. I'm coming for my race admin spot and whatever that is. 2030.

Jeff Colt (40:41.613)
Race admin, yeah.

Brett Hornig (40:43.01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the race admin spot. That's what it is.

Brett Hornig (40:50.324)
Yeah, that's a great plan. You've got so much time to prepare, just like nail it, yeah. So good. The runway.

Corrine (40:52.647)
Right?

I've got years. The runway is long right now, which feels really good. We've all used races to pay for other races. It's fine.

Jeff Colt (41:01.306)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (41:04.584)
The runway is running.

Finn (41:08.63)
It's operational.

Jeff Colt (41:08.965)
Don't put that on a shirt.

Brett Hornig (41:10.842)
No.

Corrine (41:12.15)
Jeff Colt Marketing says don't do that.

Jeff Colt (41:12.369)
Thank you.

Brett Hornig (41:15.089)
Agreed.

Finn (41:16.63)
All right, we got to talk Kandace 100K as an outside observer with no inside intel. All I knew was that, well, yeah, we don't. Apparently, well, I don't, I definitely don't. But I also, all I know is that, and also that I just know that the door had allegedly closed, that everything was in all caps sold out. It didn't matter what type of runner you were. It didn't matter if you were an aspiring Golden Tigger person. Like the door was closed, but now it might be slightly open. Like,

Corrine (41:21.833)
Do we know who's racing?

Brett Hornig (41:26.12)
That's the only note I have. Who's racing?

Corrine (41:40.985)
It seems like it's opened back up a little bit. Well, we were so. So she knows she's been in it for a while. David, if you're listening to this, I'm sorry, I'm divulging that. But she's publicly in it now. But I have heard from them about some other athletes unconferred, like that I will not share that are now in it who got in recently. But I had been told by Matt Daniels that like they were having like some of the boulder boys were having problems getting into this race. And it was like.

Brett Hornig (41:42.785)
It got kicked open.

Finn (41:44.662)
Cause Megan, Megan Roche, Megan Roche just signed up and she said it on swap.

Finn (41:53.696)
Okay. Okay, okay.

Corrine (42:07.045)
It did like it. They had to go to Marie and then Marie went to the race and the race was like, sorry, no. And I was like, man, if Drew Holman can't get into canyons, the rest of us are doomed. And it seems like that has been alleviated because I was going to have to send, I was like, I'm going to send an email to Craig to be like, there's golden ticket, like contenders who like cannot get into the golden ticket race. Like what do we do? So, but we don't know who's racing because it's a UTMB race and we know that getting those start lists are darn near impossible.

Finn (42:29.43)
Yeah. I mean.

Finn (42:37.45)
Yeah, we did a preview episode last year, Brett, Leah and I with basically no start list. Like we were given like four names and then we just speculated the rest of the episode. It was crazy.

Corrine (42:46.525)
I think we can, can we, can we crowdsource this?

Jeff Colt (42:46.613)
I'm raising the 50K and I'm stoked. And I hope that a bunch of other fast people come raise the 50K too.

Brett Hornig (42:47.111)
Good.

Brett Hornig (42:53.78)
Well, that's, I think you're right, Jeff. I think there are going to be a handful of fast people racing the 50K and it's just going to be like a good classic throwdown slash Western States tune up. You know, it's like the heats for the final. Yeah. I mean, who do we know that's running the 100K? And I mean, was it Adam Peterman, Katie Scheid?

Corrine (42:53.833)
Yeah.

Jeff Colt (43:14.117)
Katie Scheid is running. Yeah, Katie Scheid, Adam Peterman.

Finn (43:17.87)
Oh wow, yeah, yeah.

Corrine (43:19.953)
Yeah, he has to get into Western states still.

Brett Hornig (43:20.34)
It was David Sinclair, right?

Corrine (43:24.165)
Is David Sinclair running the 100k this year? That'd be sick.

Brett Hornig (43:25.748)
I thought David Sinclair was running the 100k. He's been like, did a big training block in Auburn. Yeah, he's been running great.

Jeff Colt (43:27.789)
I hope he's healthy, I would love that.

Corrine (43:31.478)
We're gonna have to put out like an Instagram thing to be like, if you're running canyons, please let us know because no one else is going to tell us if you're running or not.

Brett Hornig (43:40.269)
Please fill out our quick Google survey and all it is your name.

Corrine (43:44.337)
It's like your name, yes, running.

Finn (43:47.05)
It's crazy that in February, 2024, a media outlet has to panhandle for names for the most, for the second most important race in our sport in the first half of 20.

Brett Hornig (43:47.368)
That's all we need.

Brett Hornig (43:53.908)
I'm sorry.

Brett Hornig (43:57.916)
the final golden ticket race. It's the last one. This is the last chance qualifier, the LCQ!

Finn (44:02.679)
Just kidding.

Finn (44:06.566)
Thank you.

Jeff Colt (44:07.402)
I have something else to offer on the Canyon's races. If you've looked at the course for the Canyon's 100k, it's pretty much Devil's Thumb to the finish of Western States, which is wild. China Wall, yeah, and go down Devil's Thumb, back up Devil's Thumb. You do basically the course from the river crossing, whatever that is, like my old

Brett Hornig (44:19.497)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (44:20.765)
Yeah, they're starting at China, China basin staging area still. Yeah.

Brett Hornig (44:24.339)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (44:35.409)
48 or 50 or whatever, all the way through to Ruckachucki, you don't cross the river. But that's a huge chunk of the course that you get to run. So anyone who is trying to get a golden ticket at Western States, you're getting about as good of a preview as you can get. And I'll also note the pre-Western States training camp is a month after.

Brett Hornig (44:42.849)
Mm. Yep.

Brett Hornig (45:03.608)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (45:04.581)
canyons because that's typically when it's dry and like passable and more runnable through some of the more like eastern back toward the Sierra sections. It's a super low snow year this year, so I don't think that's going to be an issue, but it did bring me back to canyons two years ago when it was David Sinclair versus Adam Peterman running through like mid-calf puddles for 50 miles.

Corrine (45:32.705)
Yeah, I mean, the OG course, though, was from Forest Hill. You ran backwards on the course to Swinging Bridge, ran forwards on the course to Forest Hill, ran the correct direction to Ruckie Chucky and then ran backwards up to Forest Hill, which sucked. I will I will state for the record in 2018, it was awful. And you were it made me so happy that Western States ran the direction it did.

Finn (45:50.194)
Right.

Corrine (45:55.981)
But, you know, so yeah, it is a good opportunity to have it not be completely reversed on the Western States course just from like an, that was my only experience that and pacing the final 20 miles of Western States before I ran it because I couldn't afford to come out to the training camp. And so it was like, yeah, that's your, this is a good opportunity to be out on the course, even if you're not going to be in Western States this year.

Brett Hornig (46:16.956)
That's gotta be why Katie Shide's racing, right? Like just to get a good end.

Finn (46:17.026)
So we've got.

Corrine (46:19.641)
I imagine so. And she's staying over through the race.

Jeff Colt (46:19.777)
Yeah, she said that I think on her free trail end of year, one of the top athlete interviews, she said she was doing canyons just because it's too good of an opportunity to not get that training on the actual Western States course.

Brett Hornig (46:29.596)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (46:37.073)
And it times out to like two full months before the race this year. Sometimes it's as close as like six weeks feeling. And so to have those two full months feels like a pretty good break. Cause they used to, I mean, there were, there have been years where it has felt very close to Western States. But I feel like with the way the month plays out this year, we have like, it feels like we have an extra week, right? Where it's really short between Western States and hard rock with only 13 days. So it's like, I don't know. I think, yeah, don't do that double Brett. Don't even think about that double.

Jeff Colt (46:43.107)
Yeah.

Corrine (47:06.909)
The media double is like hard enough. So the running double is next level. But yeah, Canyons will be a good field, but clearly we don't have a lot to go on. I'm assuming there are people that were, like Anna McKenney, I bet she's running it. I think some of the sponsored athletes probably have some pretty decent pull. I bet if you're a Hoka athlete, you're running something that weekend. That's like not me having to go to the well to speculate there at all. It's like, if you're a Hoka athlete, you're probably running something at Canyons.

Brett Hornig (47:07.392)
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. No, thank you.

Finn (47:08.867)
Thanks for watching!

Finn (47:36.086)
We've got a 10 week wait between black canyons and canyons for a golden ticket race. 10 weeks. I was just writing down a couple ideas. Like I would love to see hell gate become a golden ticket race. That'd be good. Give East coast representation at like the end of December, early January. I'd love to bring back Sean O'Brien. Gorge.

Brett Hornig (47:36.146)
Yeah.

Corrine (47:40.149)
That doesn't feel fair.

Jeff Colt (47:56.069)
Okay, I got to run Sean O'Brien this year. I did the 50K, won. Kira puts on a heck of a race, but that's just the most beautiful zone I think I've like ever been. Like I've heard a lot about SoCal. Turns out SoCal's awesome. Yeah.

Brett Hornig (47:56.516)
I loved Sean O'Brien.

Brett Hornig (48:07.56)
Right?

Corrine (48:11.358)
super, super sick until you...

Brett Hornig (48:12.36)
Dude, Malibu Creek State Park in February is the place to be.

Jeff Colt (48:16.361)
It was outrageous and the backbone trail is so beautiful. I just did the 50K, so didn't go as far out and back as the 100K, but two thumbs up. I don't know if there's a 50K race I've enjoyed more and it's up there alongside Jiméz as just my standout favorite race I've done. Yeah, that, Sean O'Brien's awesome. I...

Finn (48:37.27)
in New Mexico.

Jeff Colt (48:45.293)
Don't know where that went, but it should come back.

Corrine (48:47.429)
It was a wildfire closure. So both Sean O'Brien and Gorge were lost to the lost from the Golden Ticket Series due to wildfire cancellations and Lake Sonoma 50 was lost due to it not having a 100k option. Because when they went when they took all the 50 mile races out of the lottery ticket qualifiers, they decided that they needed to finally remove the 50 mile at Lake Sonoma and make them all 100 case as well. So I kind of hold the 100k standard.

Brett Hornig (48:49.79)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (49:16.903)
as the qualifier.

Finn (49:17.494)
Thank you.

Should we talk about the Steon situation?

Corrine (49:23.648)
Yes, let's.

Finn (49:25.298)
And I will, I'll say for the record here, I am probably one of the least qualified people to talk about this, but I at least can facilitate it. So I'm probably going to say not too much and I'll defer to you three. Um, I guess, Corinne starting with you, I'm sure there is probably a best practices way to interpret and approach this situation by fans of the sport, by listeners to this podcast in a perfect world, how would you, how would you see that taking place? Like we ha we see what we've seen on social media.

and how people are reacting in the comments, but like, what would you like to see take place?

Corrine (49:56.437)
I mean, I'll say in a post-Lance Armstrong world, we're all pretty reactionary, I think, when we see a potential doping allegation be thrown around. And there are probably certain allegations that I feel more strongly about than others. But I think that it's not, like the investigation isn't over yet. I mean, it went far enough that his B sample also was tested and that it had less of the diuretic present, but still it was present, which meant that it's not like a weird one-off.

Like it was present in his urine. So I would say that like it's not over till it's over and there hasn't been like a ruling passed down. It'll probably go to arbitration. Anti-doping is this weird system in which the burden of proof falls on the athlete, which is very scary. And if you're an athlete or a coach listening to this, you should be scared about that.

It is kind of like, instead of being like an innocent until proven guilty, it's kind of a guilty until proven innocent situation. And I, I feel, and like, I don't know, I was in a sport where we had a lot more doping before coming into trail running. Like the sport of like Nordic skiing and biathlon just has more, more doping present than I think trail running does right now. And definitely I probably lost out at times due to, due to doping or other athletes doping. And I think that

Jeff Colt (51:12.359)
Thank you.

Corrine (51:19.701)
I would like, despite the system pushing the narrative of guilty until proven innocent, I would like us to kind of be patient and, I don't know, not force judgment. Support your friend if Stian's your friend or you're like someone that you are familiar with, but to try to not pass judgment until judgment's actually been doled out.

Jeff Colt (51:43.041)
I'm gonna ask some questions that are gonna sound super dumb, and they're both because I am not fully educated on this, but I also don't think the listeners are fully educated on this. Corinne, what is a diuretic, and why are we talking about that in this case, as opposed to something that's actually used as a performance enhancing drug?

Corrine (52:01.425)
Yeah, so diuretics are banned by like WADA, so the World Anti-Doping Agency, because while they themselves are not performance enhancing, they can ban other, or they can mask other substances, and that is why they are banned. And so by masking other substances, we mean that it generally increases urine output. So like you'll, we use diuretics in a clinical setting because someone's like water overloaded to like literally have them like.

pee out the excess fluid that is like trapped in their tissue in their body. The same thing happens if you were to take a diuretic. You urinate more. Coffee is a diuretic. It's not a clinical diuretic, so it doesn't have a component that we test for. But things like coffee are a diuretic. In a sporting capacity, the only sport I can think that a diuretic might be beneficial is weight-based sports like wrestling, where they've got to literally make weight. But in other sports, it's banned because it's a masking agent. So.

Um, it's not, it's the, a diuretic in Steehan's system isn't why he won OCC. If he was doing something else, that's where the kind of the speculation comes in. And I think that's a speculation that we should hold off on. Um, but that is why diuretics are banned, but it's a, so we consider it a potential contaminant, i.e. like not that the anti-doping agency made a mistake and they contaminated the substance, but that it's possible that Steehan consumed something that.

Brett Hornig (53:04.637)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (53:27.101)
diuretics aren't on the label for, you know, like a lot of medications are produced in these big factories that are Ill-regulated so it could be from medication. It could be from most of your sports nutrition supplements or just general supplements like the Vitamin D you bought from the grocery store or from Walgreens or whatever like none of that's regulated. It's not tested All sorts of shit ends up in there. And so that's kind of where for like on like from my side it's like, okay, like I go with the innocent until proven guilty because it's like

this very likely could come from, I don't know, any sort of substance. We saw it with Brenda Martinez, and that's an article that I sent to Finn and Jeff about it. Brenda Martinez, amazing 800 meter runner, like kind of disappeared all of a sudden. And I was like, where is Brenda? And it turned out that she'd been going through this big, both emotional and like legal battle to kind of clear her name. And it's because, and it turned out that a diuretic, she just positive for diuretic.

Brett Hornig (54:12.26)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (54:24.953)
and it was in her antidepressant. And she had it in public, but she was on an antidepressant. And that's the whole thing. Like people are very private about their mental health status, et cetera. And so I think it was like twofold, right? Like she had to go public about needing to take an antidepressant. And then also like that was in fact where the diuretic came from. And so it's just like the shit happens all the time. And it's really easy again, in that post Lance Armstrong era to be like.

Obviously, like malicious intent is like on the top of everyone's mind.

Finn (54:55.914)
I also have a dumb question. My question revolves around the timing of the release of the information. So if there's still an opportunity for Steehan to clear his name, why is the information released at the time that it is? Because one of the first thoughts that I had in this whole situation is, regardless of whether it ends up being the case that he did dope or he didn't dope, just by virtue of this stuff becoming public, his reputation is forever tarnished because there's always gonna be people that say,

regardless of the evidence presented, I think he doped or whatever. And like he might lose sponsor opportunities, he might lose race credibility, he might be blacklisted by race directors, all that stuff. So Corinne, how do you address that?

Corrine (55:37.885)
Yeah, generally it's like once the, this might be in part because we don't really have a sport body that's got jurisdiction. And so generally speaking, like that's called, we call it results management, where like the, they call it NADO's, the National Anti-Doping Agency that ran the test that was contracted by UTMB was the French Anti-Doping Agency. They generally would then report to some sort of other national body. If trail running falls under like Norway's track and field.

like it would be reported to them, but it might, like in this case might've been, might've gone public earlier because there wasn't a body for it to be reported to before it then goes to arbitration. It might be that they've, I think they've, I know that he has sent in samples of some supplements for testing and it might just be that they're in the place where it's like, it was in your A and B sample, this information is being made public.

We don't have a national governing body to regulate this information coming out. Maybe he made the choice even to get in front of it potentially, um, and not sitting on it a little bit to kind of try to share his, or I don't know, just be public with the information. Generally speaking though, it doesn't be like the national governing body. So like Ali O. Strander, right, had served a four month ban. Um, the ruling did not come out until her ban was basically over. And that was.

per the, like per USA track and field. So I don't, I think part of that is complicated by us not having national or international governing bodies.

which is like a huge pinch point for us, like getting out of competition, doping controls, like even put into place in our sport right now.

Finn (57:22.978)
Hmm.

Corrine (57:23.493)
It's the wild west and we like, don't know how to educate and or handle trail and ultra runners. And there's this other thing, like we don't know how many ultra runners are being tested. Even it's called Adams. Um, and in part, that's because we get lumped into anything above 3000 meters. And so we have no idea how many trail and ultra runners are getting tested each and every year in competition or out of competition, because we are lumped in with the 5k, 10k marathon and road athletes. And so we're.

We've got this major pinch point and it really comes down to like no international governing body to kind of take responsibility for it.

Brett Hornig (58:03.288)
Yeah, that's super interesting how there's just this big group of like, either athletes or fans of the sport being like, there needs to be more doping control in trail running, but then it's like, okay, maybe it's there. Then what, what happens if someone tests positive? Yeah. Like what happens if someone tests positive? What happens if someone tests positive and you know, it gets a false positive and there's like something like this, like then what? There's, there's never been much talk about.

Corrine (58:17.725)
Then what do you do? Yeah.

Corrine (58:29.757)
Yeah, I would say.

Brett Hornig (58:32.328)
the thin watts.

Corrine (58:33.289)
There are very few actual false positives. Like what we consider false positives are like what Steon potentially is going through where it's a contaminated supplement or medication. Like I wouldn't take a, like a pre, I feel like pre-workouts are probably ripe for like stimulants or something. So if you were taking a pre-workout, I'd probably stop because there's probably something in there that is not on the label. But yeah, so false positives is kind of this weird thing where it's like a mistake would have to be made by the lab and those are super rare.

Brett Hornig (58:36.177)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (58:48.877)
Oh yeah.

Corrine (59:01.129)
but we make mistakes all the time. And so I have talked to USADA, WADA, World Athletics, the International Testing Agency, not CAS, the International Athletic Integrity Unit, and one other private entity in the US. Like I have met with everyone trying to find ways to like help in and out of competition drug controls get moved forward in the sport. And like we have this like really funky pinch point.

of like a signatory basically, like we need jurisdiction. And then the other piece of that puzzle is like we have to educate athletes. Like testing uneducated athletes puts everyone at risk. And I don't wanna say like, I'm not trying to protect dopers, I'm very anti-doping, but I don't want to test uneducated athletes. I want athletes to know like how the global drill works, to look up medications. I want them to like know to like how to...

record the lot and batch numbers of their melatonin supplement so that like when they get tested they can provide all that information if their A or B sample was to come back with anything. Because again, the burden of proof falls to the athlete. And that is like very scary. And I think that it's important to recognize like what's happening with Steon could legit have like all of us could have a diuretic in our system right now and we'd have no idea.

Finn (01:00:22.21)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:00:23.64)
I'm drinking wine right now. So I have, I have an idea.

Corrine (01:00:25.189)
Yeah, so you do have a diuretic in your system. Well, alcohol is only illegal in shooting sports and driving sports, so you're fine in competition right now, Brett.

Finn (01:00:28.942)
..

Finn (01:00:37.121)
Thanks for watching!

Brett Hornig (01:00:38.312)
Sweet.

Jeff Colt (01:00:39.081)
That was the biggest takeaway of all this for me. Like I've, you know, in my seven years involved in this sport, like I've seen the kind of calls from Sage and company on Twitter for like increased like drug testing and stuff in sport. And like, I've never really thought twice about drug testing because I've never taken performance enhancing drugs. And then this...

Corrine (01:01:04.265)
This is Jeff just being like, I'm on the record that I am a clean athlete.

Finn (01:01:07.822)
Hahaha.

Jeff Colt (01:01:09.009)
But this reading both Francesco Puppi, his post as well as Stian's post and learning a little bit more about it, yeah, I was fully freaked out this past weekend and was going through – I have a nutrition sponsor and I was looking through what they're providing for me. I take one supplement of vitamin D.

how could I be screwing this up? And like, how can I take better record of this? Cause like, as I mentioned, I do have another job and like I have some job security, but like I have a ton of respect for Steehan and especially what he's done the last couple of years.

Corrine (01:01:54.317)
He's got two little kids, like he just had a new baby. Like his wife had a baby boy like just a couple months ago, or like very, very recently.

Jeff Colt (01:01:57.605)
Yeah.

Jeff Colt (01:02:01.857)
So I'm definitely not one that's gonna jump to conclusions, but also like he's, as of now, he's not competing for 2024. And coming off of two world championships and winning OCC, that's a pretty big loss if that's how it shakes out. Like that's a life-changing financial blow.

Brett Hornig (01:02:09.117)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (01:02:23.502)
Thank you.

Corrine (01:02:24.997)
Yeah. So one thing athletes can do, if you do need to take a supplement, this isn't going to protect your medications, because who knows what's in them. Once again, lot and batch numbers, record that information. But a bunch of companies, not a bunch, there are some companies in our sport that do their own testing. And they're generally labeled as safe for sport. I think they're labeled as NSF. And that kind of gives you a secondary guarantee that they are testing.

the batches as they are produced to make sure that they're not contaminated. So I think like Thorne tests all their products. There's a number of products, but you can search for products that specifically have that certification. So then your vitamin D isn't, I'm sorry, like nature made or whatever. I don't want you to lose your career over a nature made vitamin that you picked up at your local Safeway.

Finn (01:03:08.086)
Yes.

Brett Hornig (01:03:20.872)
proceeds to go into medicine cabinet and throw away all of my nature maid stuff that I got two for one sales at Rite Aid.

Corrine (01:03:22.981)
Yeah. Well, you know, and it's one of those things where it's like, I think, I think athletes that are on contracts, athletes that are competing at Western States, UTMB, any World Series race, Golden Trail World Series, you need to be really careful about what your supplements are and if they're regulated. A bunch of us probably don't need to worry to that extent right now, but I would still keep track of those lot numbers if you are going to be at a race where...

Finn (01:03:27.676)
Heh.

Corrine (01:03:51.825)
you know, drug testing in competition is becoming more commonplace.

Finn (01:03:56.306)
not to go all like Socratic method on this episode, but I'm sure that there are people listening or watching who are like strong hardliners on the doping issue. On the other hand, there's some like high latitude empathy people out there. In those two camps, Corinne, Jeff, Brett, are there any compelling arguments that they're going to be screaming into their headsets that we haven't acknowledged yet that we should at least acknowledge and walk through maybe why we don't believe it's the case?

Corrine (01:04:25.777)
Normally that's my job. I like live text Finn when I'm listening. I'm like walk, I'm generally like walking or running and I have to stop to like live text Finn my commentary to the podcast. It's really weird that I don't get to do that this time. I don't know. I think it's, I think it's hard. I've got sympathy for like the diuretic thing. Like that's pretty benign. I don't know. Maybe I'm too empathetic and I've been around a bunch of weird sports for a very long time, but.

I think that as the sport grows, as more money comes into it, we are at higher and higher risk for there being incentive for doping. And I think that there needs to be a real call for race organizations to potentially band together. So maybe that means not every race has anti-doping controls, but everyone puts into a pot. And X number races a year get to utilize that pot for testing.

at their events. But every race gets to sign on to say that they have this anti-doping stance, this is the framework they'll use, there could be testing at their race, et cetera. And maybe that means that Black Canyon gets the testing this year and Hong Kong 100K gets the testing next year, but it could always be present. I think that there's a real need for that. And then if there's someone out there who's really, really creative and wants a job that doesn't pay well and might make you a hated person, reach out to me. Because...

Brett Hornig (01:05:45.94)
Hehehe

Corrine (01:05:47.329)
I have been tasked single-handedly to try to fix the presence of out of competition testing in the sport, it feels like, and I'm coming up against a bunch of really big walls right now. So if you need a job that doesn't pay well and or pay at all and will make you hated by many people, slide into my DMs. We can get to work.

Jeff Colt (01:06:08.174)
You need a marketing person to pitch this. If you want to meet all your trail running heroes and get to go to their houses and find out where they live, this job is for you. You're not going to be the traveling phlebotomist.

Brett Hornig (01:06:08.596)
Are you?

Brett Hornig (01:06:14.824)
That's what I was just about to ask.

Corrine (01:06:18.886)
No, the thing is, you don't get to do the testing. No, no, you're not the traveling, like the job is not, the role is not to do urine collection tests, you sickos. The job is to be the person who's willing to figure out how we create a global entity.

Finn (01:06:21.326)
Watch them use the bathroom.

Brett Hornig (01:06:34.717)
Curran's DMs are just getting flooded right now.

Corrine (01:06:38.757)
with people who really want to see people pee in cups. Now, this was like my college experience. I was one of like six athletes in the state of Montana who was on USADA's out of competition testing pool. And my now husband, then boyfriend was as well. And so they'd spend the entire day at our house because they'd come for an out of competition test and test both of us conveniently the same day. And it'd be like my evening time slot with like.

Brett Hornig (01:06:41.725)
Yeah.

Corrine (01:07:03.221)
12 friends over to have dinner and you saw the shows up and I like can't pee in front of someone and so there's like waterfall music playing through the house and like a round of applause when I come out of the bathroom with this like strange older woman who's been tasked to watch me pee like it's not a glamorous job. I don't wish it on anyone but the job that needs to be done is this like kind of bureaucratic annoying global entity forming piece of the puzzle that the athletes can't hold at the PTR a can't

Brett Hornig (01:07:28.634)
Mmm.

Corrine (01:07:30.717)
do it technically, but we could liaison with this entity. So if you would like to create an international conglomerate organization that would have global jurisdiction, that's what I want you to hit me up for. Yes. Yes, sickos.

Jeff Colt (01:07:43.345)
Those are huge words.

Brett Hornig (01:07:43.952)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's very different than watching someone pee in a cup. And for that reason, I'm out.

Jeff Colt (01:07:47.65)
Yeah. Fit.

Finn (01:07:50.708)
Hahaha!

Corrine (01:07:52.423)
Shark Tank style, Brett wants no percent of my company.

Jeff Colt (01:07:52.849)
been.

Finn (01:07:57.394)
For that reason

Corrine (01:07:59.21)
No, we do need to raise about $500,000 a year to also run a very small testing pool. So if you like are really into fundraising and being hated, then you can hit me up.

Jeff Colt (01:08:10.937)
Finn, to answer your question, one of my goals in life is to practice radical empathy. I definitely am coming from that place of empathy. At the same time, I want to believe that my competition competitors are clean in sport. That was one of the things that caught me about Francesco's post was he was second at OCC.

Jeff Colt (01:08:41.901)
have that windfall if something did happen with Stéan, he's calling for empathy and holding off on speculation. And yeah, I think the humanitarian in me wants to believe these people, especially those I look up to. And I'm definitely still at this place in sport where I look up to a lot of my peers and competition.

um the same time. I'm like so into track and field right now because it seems like world records and American records are getting broken every weekend and then like this weekend at Aldonum is like is everyone just like doping is what's going on here uh but

Finn (01:09:25.582)
to the gills.

Brett Hornig (01:09:27.976)
Hmm

Corrine (01:09:29.442)
material doping. It's the super shoes, man.

Finn (01:09:34.934)
Yeah, it's crazy. And I don't want to call this a trial run because it's definitely the real thing that we're experiencing. But my like sad prediction is that there's just going to be more positive tests from other athletes that we're going to have to confront in the next couple of years. And I think how we respond to this one and like what we can learn from it and what we can implement, like you were saying, Karin, as a result, I think will be important for the years to come. And there's a lot of work to be done. And it's a shitty job, it sounds like.

Corrine (01:10:03.701)
It's a shitty job. I think as a competitor and as a self-proclaimed fan girl of the sport, I do think that it's important to not become cynical. Cause I think it's really easy to become jaded and cynical and be like, well, every like question, every performance, question every out, like, right? Do we have to start questioning Courtney, right? Like she does the impossible and cycling when someone does the impossible, you're like, ooh, seems sketchy and I don't wanna do that.

Brett Hornig (01:10:05.588)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (01:10:32.165)
I like Courtney, I want her to be this amazing thing in person and athlete. And so the fangirl in me, the competitor in me needs to not be cynical because if I become cynical I think it's really hard to want to be in the sport still.

Finn (01:10:42.059)
Yeah.

Finn (01:10:49.517)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:10:50.224)
Yeah, you can't enjoy it if that's the mindset you take to any of it. Like you, yeah, you couldn't go to a race and be excited about what you're seeing if you're just like, oh, these people are clearly cheating because they're beating me. Um, and yeah, like that's just not the way. I mean, it's clearly every, yes, every, that would be a, that would be a lot of dopers was like, not actually me, but you know what I'm saying? Uh, yeah.

Corrine (01:10:53.637)
It's a sad, sad existence.

Finn (01:11:14.668)
Yeah.

Corrine (01:11:15.726)
Brett's got a bone to pick with people.

Jeff Colt (01:11:16.143)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:11:18.62)
with quite literally everybody.

Finn (01:11:21.35)
And we have a role to play like all four of us have a role to play in the sense that right now we're recording this episode. It'll be listened to by many thousands of people. Well, it was if it was a year ago, seven or eight, but it's changed. We got the S. I retract that dozens and dozens, dozens and dozens, but we write like There will be some level of directing of the conversation at play here.

Corrine (01:11:31.337)
seven or eight people.

Jeff Colt (01:11:33.145)
dozens of us.

Brett Hornig (01:11:35.72)
Dozens and dozens.

Corrine (01:11:36.861)
dozens.

Corrine (01:11:43.061)
all of our moms.

Finn (01:11:49.93)
And so we do have responsibility in that.

Jeff Colt (01:11:52.877)
Yeah, and I'll be the first to say I look at cycling and this past summer there was one guy who won a stage of the tour that I was like, he won by too much. I don't think he meant to win by that much. Yeah, and I think in cycling it's easy for me to like, oh, well, because of Lance and the history of this sport and the mockery that's been made of it,

Brett Hornig (01:11:53.287)
Yeah.

Corrine (01:12:08.113)
You gotta look tired, kid.

Jeff Colt (01:12:22.113)
I still love the sport, but I'm much quicker to jump to those conclusions in cycling. I would say on a weekly basis, someone asked me about ultra running and trail running. I say that it's very special to be in a sport where our two biggest role models in Courtney and Killian are both amazing people, actually someone that competitors and youth in the sport can look up to. And doing...

the coolest things and yeah, I'd be devastated if I learned that in trail running. So it is interesting just the sport to sport and how we look at that audience or that competition based on history and on that cynicism comment. We do see it. And I'd say I mostly find out about...

positive doping, like infractions on iRun FAR of just like so-and-so was banned for a two-year doping violation or so-and-so has been banned. And often it is runners who are also marathoners or 10Kers because that's where more testing is happening.

Corrine (01:13:40.809)
testing it and more monies in that side of the sport too. But we definitely are in a sport that's the Wild West where there are a lot of races making their own rules too of like zero, complete zero tolerance, which is like a different topic that we don't have to, this is a rabbit hole of sorts. But there are people, you are a rabbit, are things like.

Jeff Colt (01:13:57.251)
I'm a rabbit.

Finn (01:13:59.138)
Okay.

Corrine (01:14:03.221)
I don't create all, I don't know, all doping and fractions are not created equally, I guess. And I think we, we in the US in particular, like kind of just like, we're ubiquitous in our, it's a big word. I feel good about pronouncing that one. Ubiquitous about our doling out of judgment and like social punishment of people who, I don't know, if you're on EPO and a bunch of weird stuff, like, yeah, I'm going to feel nasty thoughts about you probably. But I don't know if you like.

I think that it's not like a one punishment fits all. And that's why there are different punishments. There are written warnings. There are, you know, there are short punishments. There are very long punishments. There are lifetime punishments. And I think that like system exists for a reason. And it's kind of my view that like, that system is fine to respect that. I'm like not a person, much to people's chagrin, who thinks that like, dopers should be all banned for life independent of what they were caught doing type of thing.

Finn (01:15:03.162)
This just came to that point. This just came up on my radar like yesterday, but I didn't know that iRunFAR has like a policy on doping in athlete coverage. Maybe Karin, you know this or Jeff or Brett, but they have a one-strike-your-out policy where they will include the athlete's name in like a general preview with the note of their doping history, but they'll leave them out completely from their like classic, you know, iRunFAR pre-race interviews if they are podiuming in the post-race interviews.

That's really interesting to me.

Corrine (01:15:34.017)
Yeah, and they will report, like if they do finish in the top three or top five, whatever they're reporting on for that race, they will put in the note of what the doping infraction was and when it happened, etc. And they've just kind of always had that, which has been of use to us as far as just like tracking kind of movement into and through the sport.

Brett Hornig (01:15:56.956)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's fine. That seems like it makes sense. I would rather them keep them in the article and make a note rather than silence them altogether because then I don't know.

Corrine (01:16:00.57)
Yeah, but.

Corrine (01:16:08.561)
But like hot take, while I'm fine with Western states never allowing Lance Armstrong to get into Western states, I like think it's kind of silly that Addie Bracey, who got a written warning for making like an uneducated mistake, like low and being honest, low consequence was not given a banner suspension was given a written warning. She was she will never be allowed to race Western states unless they redo their policy.

Brett Hornig (01:16:19.483)
Yes.

Brett Hornig (01:16:23.084)
and being honest.

Brett Hornig (01:16:36.024)
Yeah, and because she turned herself in essentially for not doing anything wrong. Like she said, oh yeah, that's right. I had this, I forget the exact story, but it was like, if she didn't say anything, like no one would probably ever know.

Corrine (01:16:49.209)
She got IV saline because she's got a history with rhabdo and she had been ill, been vomiting and other stuff ahead of canyons. And so she was tested at canyons, she declared that she had IV saline and they were like, oh, well, we got to talk about this because that's actually a big no-no. And so it's like, if she... So it's one of those things where it's like, is that really like a lifetime ban type of punishment? It's not my job. I'm not on the board. But like...

Brett Hornig (01:16:56.989)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:17:15.549)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (01:17:16.145)
I don't know. I think that that's like kind of we're splitting hairs maybe. But I don't think we are splitting hairs. I think it's like silly, silly to have a written.

Jeff Colt (01:17:21.621)
Based on the comment sections that I've read, and if we could see the comment sections on this as it's happening live, we're not splitting hairs. People were definitely throwing Addy Bracey and LA Ostrander in the same boat of like, yeah, no, they should never be able to run Western States, hard line. I also would say that I'm maybe on the more empathetic side there, but I also don't think I realize... Yeah. I don't think I realize...

Finn (01:17:29.038)
Thank you very much.

Corrine (01:17:37.737)
Which is silly, I think, but...

Corrine (01:17:44.985)
I just think that's such a different mistake from other things.

Jeff Colt (01:17:49.641)
As Corinne said, we don't want uneducated athletes out there. I want to educate myself way more on what is what, because Ivy Saline, I didn't know about that until reading about that, that was one, a no-no, and two, an offense that might get you banned from Western states.

Brett Hornig (01:18:14.34)
Yeah, I mean, like, not all drugs are created equal, just like not all crimes are created equal. Like, it's, you know, it's kind of, it's a s-

Finn (01:18:15.15)
Thank you.

Corrine (01:18:21.814)
You don't get a lifetime prison sentence for jaywalking.

Brett Hornig (01:18:25.156)
Yeah, it's a sliding scale. Well, and there's plenty of drugs on the list that you can get a band for that don't enhance your performance in any way. Yeah, so it can't just be like a solid line like that.

Corrine (01:18:40.381)
Yeah. Well, yeah. And then we've got a little further confusion too with TUEs, therapeutic use exemptions, right? If we were going to introduce in competition testing, athletes haven't been under jurisdiction, i.e. they've had no one to apply for a TUE through. And so it's like you might be on a medication that requires a therapeutic use exemption that your doctor has to help you fill out and then it has to be approved by USADA. And that's just like we've never had to do that. And so we've got athletes who might need...

Brett Hornig (01:18:46.149)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (01:19:09.937)
or who are on medications, that they have to have USADA approve thoroughly. And it's just like trail and ultra athletes have never had to have that experience, don't know about having that experience.

Brett Hornig (01:19:22.544)
Yeah, and I think that's something that a lot of maybe fans of the sport, there's like a disconnect to that in how complicated it is to be a professional athlete in that regard and that there are so many little rules and nuances that you have to know. And there's not, I mean, there's a few sports where it's been implemented for a long time. And, but there's not like, you know, if all of a sudden tomorrow there's like an ultra running league and

There's random out of competition doesn't like there's no handbook that every athlete gets where they're just like, okay, do this. You're just all of a sudden expected to know.

Corrine (01:19:55.881)
So when they introduced this, when you saw it, it introduced a global testing pool out of competition for MMA. They had a six month, no fault policy. So if you mess up your whereabouts filing, if you messed up your, if you had a weird supplement, if you didn't know anything, despite them like walking you through modules, they had a six month, like no fault policy, where like they didn't punish anyone during that time period as they were onboarded.

because they needed the athletes to know what was legal and what was illegal coming into the system. Because, so talking to like the American Trail Running Association and USA Track and Field, they're given X number of tests by USADA to use in trail running events that are like national championship or world's qualifying events, et cetera. And they generally are like allocated to podium finishers and or sometimes like a random. And they've had a couple randoms.

Brett Hornig (01:20:24.84)
Mm-hmm.

Corrine (01:20:53.157)
like it's generally like masters men who are like on testosterone without a therapeutic use exemption because like, I don't know, doctors just like love to give tired men testosterone. Like pop, oh, it's great. Super lucrative. Like test positive because they get the random drug test at like, you know, they're in the 50 to 55 masters age group at like 10k trail national championships. And it's like so silly that like that's what's happening. But like that is like.

Brett Hornig (01:21:03.924)
It's a great business.

Yeah.

Finn (01:21:17.235)
I'm sorry.

Corrine (01:21:22.093)
those positives and trail are generally that scenario, which is ironic that the test got delivered that way.

Brett Hornig (01:21:29.48)
What a great use of our money.

Corrine (01:21:30.825)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Colt (01:21:32.369)
I will say there's a lot of things about being an athlete that you don't necessarily know about and you might have to Google. I think the conversation around having an agent or having some representation is a really interesting one when it comes to, all right, how do I file my taxes? How do I do a lot of things?

Corrine (01:21:41.887)
Ha ha!

Corrine (01:21:56.285)
The IRS knows how much money you owe, Jeff, but if you mess it up and they come and collect or go into jail, like that's what anti-doping is. You know? It's like they know exactly how much you owe. That is anti-doping in sport.

Brett Hornig (01:22:02.34)
lifetime ban from western states.

Finn (01:22:03.533)
I love that meme.

Jeff Colt (01:22:05.57)
Right, so...

Jeff Colt (01:22:10.089)
Yeah. A couple of years ago, I Googled, how do athletes file their taxes? It brought me to usatf.org and there's basically a first-time filing your taxes as a track and field athlete? Here's a resource for you. I just Googled the same thing and sure enough, usatf.org has a huge swath of resources for track and field athletes on understanding, anti-doping,

supplements, prohibited lists, therapeutic use exemptions, et cetera. So if it's putting trail and ultra running under the same umbrella as USATF, which I guess Mountain Ultra Trail is often considered that, there are some resources out there. I'll say without any athlete representation, no one was like, you should know this stuff. I'll likely read up on it tonight. So...

Corrine (01:23:04.789)
We'll have a pop quiz about it next week, Jeff. I'll start sending you multiple choice questions.

Jeff Colt (01:23:07.445)
Yeah. So I think the point on education and then the point on if this is actually instituted, if out of competition testing is instituted, yeah, there are athletes who likely need therapeutic use exemptions and that needs to... It's almost like it can't all happen. It can't be black and white and it can't all happen right at once. But definitely in favor of

of fair sport.

Finn (01:23:39.97)
I have one more question that I want to ask you guys and it kind of has to do with like how this ends up being resolved, if and when it ends up being resolved. And so like based on the outcome here, let's say it's positive, let's say it's negative. What is the, if it's, if it turns out that like, for example, Steehan is cleared of any wrongdoing, what is the best way to reintegrate him into the sport? If he, if it turns out that, you know, he was in the wrong, that he did cheat, what is the best way to

punish slash expel the athlete.

Corrine (01:24:08.753)
Well, here's the thing, though. There's a third category that is missed there, because it's like he could still technically like this could be a contaminated supplement. Like he could like there's a there's like it's like the like they find where the diuretic came from. He's cleared. They don't find where the diuretic came from. He can't prove his innocence. But the dude probably didn't dope anyway. That's number two. And then the third is like they can't find where it's from. And it turns out that they like find something else, you know.

So it's kind of like this weird that middle ground is probably worse actually than either the other options.

Jeff Colt (01:24:42.677)
And I think the other thing to consider is just timeline. Yeah, the timeline is also purgatory because if the investigation continues on through August, through September.

Finn (01:24:43.505)
Mm. Pargetory.

Corrine (01:24:53.801)
Yeah, well, they'll consider they'll consider time served. So say like in the Ale Ostrander incident, right? Like it was like kind of time served. So it was from like last race forward. So it's like, they will probably count any time post OCC, like say he gets a, I don't know, they find it or something, but they still make them serve some sort of ban, which would be silly. They like could have time served. Well, they at this point would probably be, he probably has to take it to CAS, which is like the International Arbitration Court for sport.

Brett Hornig (01:25:02.667)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Hornig (01:25:12.621)
So, who's there?

Corrine (01:25:22.537)
they probably have to do that. I think he probably has to foot the bill of testing these supplements, unfortunately. And then it would have to go to the, like, the Court of Arbitration and SportCast. There we go. That's an acronym. I figured it out. That's where I would have to proceed. And then they could rule on the state of punishment, essentially.

Jeff Colt (01:25:44.121)
Now I get why all these ultra introverts have law degrees. My brain is like.

Brett Hornig (01:25:44.367)
Okay.

Brett Hornig (01:25:49.84)
It's so messy. I mean, we didn't, I think one of the articles said Stian hired an American lawyer for this, which like, that just kind of made me chuckle. Cause I was like, yeah, that, that makes sense. Hire an American lawyer for, for something like this.

Finn (01:26:00.581)
If the diuretic don't fit you gotta acquit

Corrine (01:26:05.362)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:26:05.4)
Yeah, pretty much.

Jeff Colt (01:26:06.925)
Also don't put that on a shirt.

Corrine (01:26:08.501)
I'm sorry.

Brett Hornig (01:26:10.404)
Not yet. Not yet at least.

Corrine (01:26:13.801)
Oh boy. Yeah. No, it's, it's hard. I think that unfortunately, like, you know, even in Ali's case, right? Like, you know, she, like, she immediately admitted fault. It was like, once again, not a thing that was going to like boost her performance, but is banned, a banned, like, medical, like medical compound that was found in like an, like an acne medication, I think. Um, you know, and so some people will be like, she's a doper for life and won't like...

Brett Hornig (01:26:36.504)
Right, that's what it was, yeah.

Corrine (01:26:42.521)
will like, I don't know, put her in a corner for forever. But I think that, you know, there will always be people that support as well. And I think that Steyan will find support in the community, pending how this all pans out. But there will be people that will forever be skeptical of him, which is a shame, potentially, particularly if he's like proven, proven innocent and the diuretic was contained in like a multivitamin.

Finn (01:27:05.446)
Any other, and obviously we've only cracked the surface of this whole topic. I think Corinne, thank you so much for kind of leading the charge on this. I think you've really like articulated this well and we've at least initially covered a lot of subtopics within it. Maybe there'll be room in a future episode to go further if there's, you know, questions, comments, et cetera, from the audience and as the whole situation kind of evolves, but, um, from anyone here, any, any final thoughts on this particular topic?

Brett Hornig (01:27:34.32)
No, not a final thought on this particular topic, but I can go like totally off topic for like two seconds.

Finn (01:27:41.174)
Dude, go two minutes for the dozens of...

Corrine (01:27:42.709)
Take us, take us, take us with you.

Brett Hornig (01:27:43.272)
No, it's only going to... Every single one of us have a double consonant in our name.

Corrine (01:27:52.091)
Weird.

Finn (01:27:53.046)
Wait, what does that mean?

Jeff Colt (01:27:53.389)
Nice. Finn with two N's, Jeff with two F's. We don't know what consonants are. How are we gonna figure out what whereabouts testing is?

Brett Hornig (01:27:55.388)
T-T-N-N-R-R-F

Corrine (01:27:57.699)
Do you know what a consonant is?

Finn (01:28:01.302)
I'm just a podcaster. You expect me to know what continent means?

Corrine (01:28:04.805)
Brett failed at public reading during the live broadcast and Finn also failed at public grammar during this podcast. Okay, what's a vowel, Finn?

Finn (01:28:13.63)
I don't read good.

Jeff Colt (01:28:18.277)
That's one of the hoo, right? One of those animals.

Corrine (01:28:20.049)
Yeah, exactly. And then what's a consonant?

Finn (01:28:22.87)
I just know conjunction junction. What's your function?

Corrine (01:28:24.646)
What's my function?

Jeff Colt (01:28:24.877)
North America is a consonant, Antarctica is a consonant, Australia, right, is Greenland?

Corrine (01:28:27.925)
Ha ha!

Brett Hornig (01:28:29.273)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:28:32.956)
Debatable and Pluto was but now it's not anymore

Corrine (01:28:33.481)
God.

Jeff Colt (01:28:36.837)
Hmm

Corrine (01:28:37.862)
A consonant or a planet?

Brett Hornig (01:28:40.936)
Yeah.

Jeff Colt (01:28:41.579)
Okay.

Brett Hornig (01:28:44.36)
Sorry, that was supposed to only take two seconds. Everyone was supposed to be like, wow. I know, I was just reading our names and I was like, wow, look at that, we all have doubles of a letter back to back. And everyone was supposed to be like, oh yeah, nice. It wasn't supposed to turn into like what's, yeah, sorry.

Corrine (01:28:46.59)
The wine has finally hit Brett.

Corrine (01:28:54.665)
like.

Finn (01:28:58.738)
In the end, I just got exposed.

Corrine (01:29:01.577)
for being an English noob.

Jeff Colt (01:29:04.618)
Um.

Brett Hornig (01:29:05.04)
And for that, you've lost an N. You are now just F-I-N.

Finn (01:29:09.046)
People comment on it anyways, I don't know why.

Brett Hornig (01:29:11.764)
That doesn't change the way it sounds.

Corrine (01:29:15.305)
Someone spelt my name C-R-I-N the other day.

Jeff Colt (01:29:18.577)
Trin, I like that one.

Brett Hornig (01:29:20.653)
I like to put that on a shirt.

Jeff Colt (01:29:24.045)
I think they already put Corinne on a shirt, Free Corinne. I'm pretty sure I saw Andy Jones Wilkins wearing that shirt.

Brett Hornig (01:29:29.559)
but spelled

Finn (01:29:29.814)
Oh, I wanted to wear one of those for this episode. Really did. I need to get one.

Brett Hornig (01:29:32.684)
Spelled the right way though.

Corrine (01:29:33.737)
spelled the right way. I can help you with that, I think.

Jeff Colt (01:29:38.097)
On this same topic, I think there was a Spanish runner that was just banned for missing two whereabouts violations and that actually impacted the world championships results. Even track and field versus ultra trail, I saw that. I didn't question it. I was like, oh man, another track and field runner.

Brett Hornig (01:29:47.137)
Oh, Mocatyr.

Corrine (01:30:00.51)
He's probably doing weird stuff, skipping tests.

Jeff Colt (01:30:03.358)
Yeah, doing weird stuff and doping. And then when it hits closer to home, like, it's like, fucking look up to Seon. Like, what?

Brett Hornig (01:30:04.208)
Hmm.

Brett Hornig (01:30:16.027)
Yeah, all the professional athletes out there, make sure you have retroactive bonuses written into your contracts. That was kind of a dark thing to say, but that is also what came to mind. Like in Francesco's instance.

Finn (01:30:28.782)
prep because you made it.

Jeff Colt (01:30:32.501)
Oh, that's crazy. I didn't, I've never thought of that either.

Finn (01:30:33.471)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:30:35.828)
Like, if Stéan gets like test positive and loses like now Francesca is like, I mean clearly this is not the way he's thinking, but like Keira Goucher got screwed like this before, you know, where it's like she lost out on potentially like 100 plus thousand dollars by not, you know, meddling and like eventually getting the medal like a decade later, but like all the stuff that happens as a result of getting a medal at World Championships, like you get robbed of that.

That's definitely looking at it on the more pessimistic side of the positive case, but it's an unfortunate thing that people are needing to put in their contracts now. It's like, well, someone in front of me tests positive. Does this first place bonus roll up to me? What's the statute of limitations for that? Jeff's furiously taking notes right now. No. Like, holy crap.

Jeff Colt (01:31:24.109)
I'm not taking notes, but I am. A couple of years ago, this conversation would have been like, Jeff, if you're serious about this, you need to go find some type of sports marketing agent and get briefed on all this. Because even hearing, there's still so much I've never thought about, and I've gone through a couple of rounds of negotiations and whatnot now. Yeah.

enlightening, alarming.

Brett Hornig (01:31:53.94)
That's one of the cool things about the Wild West. You can negotiate whatever you want, Jeff. Yeah, dude, you make...

Corrine (01:31:59.275)
Rules just keep getting made. It's great.

Jeff Colt (01:32:01.753)
I'm just gonna be out there in a full NASCAR suit, patches everywhere.

Brett Hornig (01:32:05.881)
Yeah, you can have that. You can have that.

Finn (01:32:07.662)
Sponsored by Fig Newtons.

Corrine (01:32:10.142)
Oh, I wish.

Jeff Colt (01:32:10.201)
I wish. Yeah. Fig Newtons, I haven't looked at their batch testing, but I do really like them.

Brett Hornig (01:32:10.376)
What's M-E?

Finn (01:32:17.234)
Probably not good.

Corrine (01:32:19.799)
You get a sleeve of those. It's game over.

Jeff Colt (01:32:21.466)
Yeah.

Finn (01:32:23.082)
All right, to wrap this awesome episode up, let's do round table final thoughts. Corinne, is there anything that you wanna leave listeners with, any calls to action, or just any other topics to think about before we go?

Corrine (01:32:34.389)
me talking about recruiting people to watch a little pee wasn't enough. Um, no, I feel like we covered some, some good ground today. We don't, we probably provided a lot more confusion than we did answers. And that's, I know that's why you brought me in. This was kind of a test run and I feel like I might get fired before, before it becomes a thing.

Finn (01:32:52.362)
No, no, we only hire Corinne at the Single Track Podcast.

Corrine (01:32:56.297)
We don't fire her. I've been fired. No, firing, that was out, that was like 2023. It's out for 2024. The goal is to keep jobs this year.

Brett Hornig (01:33:05.797)
Banned for life, try hired for life. No say.

Corrine (01:33:10.088)
Hahaha

Corrine (01:33:13.481)
Okay. Yeah.

Finn (01:33:13.486)
How about you, Brett?

Brett Hornig (01:33:16.08)
Yeah, I mean, as I've said before, if you have any comments, questions, concerns, just hit up at run singletrack on Instagram. Finn will filter it all. He'll send it our way. No, I mean, this was a fun episode getting to do a little bit of Black Canyon recap, a little bit of classic long run archives. We've got one more golden ticket race left. Yeah, I mean, this was...

Corrine (01:33:28.501)
Twitter, LinkedIn.

Brett Hornig (01:33:45.756)
This was a good one. I like all the directions that this episode went.

Finn (01:33:50.85)
How about you, Jeff?

Corrine (01:33:57.481)
Jeff is like, the bread is burning in the oven. I don't.

Brett Hornig (01:33:59.516)
Yeah, I was a Jeff. Did your bread? Did your bread come out? Okay.

Finn (01:34:00.139)
yourself.

Jeff Colt (01:34:02.093)
took it out. The bread's fine. I was just thinking as we talk about the Wild West, I do think the Wild West is still in the FKT world and in this world of actually trying to go do a set route faster than anyone's done it, whether that's in competition or out of competition. It just had me thinking what would eventually be if that's monetized and...

people are getting bonuses for their FKTs, or there's eventually put together a prize pool so that runners can make somewhat of a living seeking out these elite trails around the world to go fast on. Maybe that's the next wave that like track and field is one example now and mountain ultra trails next, maybe like...

World Championship Mountain Nutcracker Trails next, and then trail running as a whole is next. The FKT scene is the one that has the most time to learn and evolve.

Corrine (01:35:08.489)
Become the enhanced games. That's like already come into fruition.

Jeff Colt (01:35:13.177)
Ideally not becoming the Enhance Games. I was saying that in more of a... I think there's a lot of purity in FKT efforts and stuff, but I also think there should be incentives for some of these incredibly fast runners who like that style of racing and competition to go do that. When you put a dollar sign on something, it starts to lead toward, we need to...

formalize, we need to professionalize.

Corrine (01:35:46.085)
I mean, keeping us poor definitely keeps my love of running more pure. Someone famous said that recently.

Jeff Colt (01:35:54.329)
That's Steve Prefontaine.

Corrine (01:35:56.893)
Not quite.

Finn (01:35:59.702)
got three. The first Hayden is in the running for the best 100k mountain trail runner of all time. He's so dang good at that distance. Two, Brett, you reminded me earlier that we should do a shark tank episode of the Long Run Archives, kind of like doing like ask the audience to send in like a voicemail for a good product idea and then debate it on the pod. And then I was trying to think about like the overall takeaway from this episode. And you know, we talked about Black Canyon, how it's getting bigger, the sport's getting bigger.

We've talked a lot about drug testing and it made me realize that like athletes in our sport, like you, Jeff, like you, Corinne, like you, Brett, you guys have never, like the spotlight for you guys has never been bigger and it's only going to get bigger and it's only going to get more oppressive and single track and free trail and I run far trail runner for better or worse, we're going to make it bigger. Like the attention issue is just going to get bigger and there's good and bad to that. But, um, I just.

I think that like for me, the takeaway is like, I just have a baseline level of respect for athletes that like enter into the arena that compete, whether you DNF, whether you win, whether you gut out a rough day, I just think like, it's important to reiterate that like you're going to get criticized and put under a microscope, but like, at least from us like, hell yeah, just glad you're in it. And you like give us something to talk about and follow. So that's my parting thought.

Jeff Colt (01:37:25.338)
One goofy thought.

Finn (01:37:27.284)
End on a positive. Oh, that was too sad. That was too sad. Keep it light.

Corrine (01:37:28.221)
Hahaha!

Jeff Colt (01:37:30.001)
I tried this electric stimulation foot mat last night while we were at a little friend's house little gathering and it was like, yeah, we actually all tried it. We tried to stand up and put it all the way to the max as it was sending eSTIM through the soles of our feet and your knees would give out and you'd kind of fall down. But the product that I want to pitch your shark tank is putting those eSTIM...

Corrine (01:37:37.861)
in public, you did this in public.

Jeff Colt (01:37:57.057)
like battery-operated e-stims into footbeds, into running shoes, so you're getting stimulated while you're trying to run. Because I think the video of people trying to run as their peroneal tendons and Achilles are like, and then loosening would just be a riot. So I can't wait for your Shark Tank episode, and I hope you guys get to try my...

Corrine (01:38:20.205)
Yeah, Jeff was gonna pitch like that. No one's gonna send anything in. It's just gonna be, Jeff is gonna create 14 fake emails to keep sending in ideas.

Jeff Colt (01:38:30.797)
If you get a chance to try an eStim floor mat that you stand on, crazy.