Appalachian Trail FKT Playbook #1 | Kristian Morgan

Finn (00:00.59)
Christian Morgan, it's a pleasure to have you on the Single Track Podcast. How are you doing today?

k morgan (00:05.058)
Finn, I'm pleased to be here. So I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Finn (00:09.594)
Awesome. Well, yeah, I was telling you prior to Hidden Record that of all of the topics that we cover on this show related to the Ultra Trail space, my favorite is the Appalachian Trail. And it's funny or it's serendipitous or both. But back in August, I was doing a run on the 100 Mile Wilderness, which to the audience is just north of Monson, Maine, heading towards Abald Bridge at the gateway to Baxter State Park. And it was August 3rd, to be exact. I was about 25 miles into the attempt. I was sort of hitting a

a mental low point in the chairback section, which always beats me up. And I was cresting, I think it was third or fourth mountain or Columbus mountain. And right then and there, I see you coming around a corner, jogging downhill at a decent clip looking strong. And I put two and two together that you were a day or two into your ATFKT attempt. And it just gave me a bunch of rejuvenation in the moment. And for the next two or three hours, I was kind of riding a high and...

It also reminded me that I wanted to have you on the pod. And finally, here we are. So I don't think I'll ever have as interesting an episode inspiration as this one. So thank you.

k morgan (01:19.13)
Oh man, what an intro. Yeah. I think it was day one. I do remember you looked pretty good actually and gave off a kind of good vibe, good energy vibe. So it was either day one or two. I forget now what day, what date I started. It was the second or the third of August.

Finn (01:36.43)
Cool. Well, again, pleasure to chat here today. And for further context, something I've been thinking about doing for a long time on this show is sort of putting together like a five or six episode anthology on what it takes to pursue one of these long trail FKTs. And in addition to you, one day I'd love to talk with like Heather Anderson and Jen Farr Davis and Carl Meltzer and Joey Campanelli. The list kind of goes on and on.

Um, so that's sort of like the original context for the episode, but I would love to just to get a little bit of background need to start and from the outside looking in you've led what seems to be a really interesting nomadic existence. Like you spend time in Australia and Spain and Thailand and Ethiopia. And we could probably spend an entire episode on that, but maybe focusing on like Thailand and Ethiopia and Ethiopia first, what influence has living in Ethiopia?

had on your approach to the sport? What did you take from the experience living in Ethiopia that you've applied to your ultra trail running career?

k morgan (02:44.03)
Yeah. I mean, talk about stepping outside of my personal comfort zone. I turned up in Ethiopia. I did, I made two, I'm actually, I made three trips there. The second time I lived there for six months. Um, the first time I arrived, I was so nervous. I arrived with a plastic bag, uh, and it had a pair of running shorts and a T-shirt in and I was already wearing my trainers. I had nothing else on me besides my passport. And.

the guy who I'd made friends with in Sicily, Italy, when I was running the marathon a few years prior, who was my contact, Sege, I said, where's your stuff? You know, and I said, this is it in this plastic bag, you know, and so I just turned up like full of, I guess, preconception and fear and ended up realizing that these guys cared for me and loved me like I was family and.

I mean, it's a, it was an amazing journey. Like I say, three separate trips. The first one was my introduction, uh, to see if it was possible to live there with these guys. The second one was the six month stretch of living there. And actually the third one was to go back to see my Ethiopian girlfriend who said she was pregnant, uh, a spontaneous revisit. And, uh, yeah, I mean, we can go into, we can go into the middle one, I guess, which is the main one.

Finn (04:09.215)
Yeah.

k morgan (04:09.585)
You're asking how did it influence me?

Finn (04:12.426)
Yes. Yeah. The running, especially, I mean, honestly, in any area of your life, but maybe specifically like the running influence, like what did you take from that culture that you've applied to your own training and racing and sort of like FKT ambitions?

k morgan (04:26.334)
I remember, so I'd won, I think I'd won my first ultra marathon in 2013. It was a 50 K trail ultra marathon. Uh, it's called the Salisbury five four three two one. And I went to Ethiopia in 2014. I lived there for six months. The goal was to write a book, um, and just live with these guys. And my book would be almost just.

investigating what do these guys do? You know, I want to, I want to eat the same food as them. Uh, I want to sleep on the same, you know, like I want to be with these guys. I want to really get into what it takes to be an Ethiopian marathon runner. And, and I did just that, uh, you know, I shared a room, uh, and, and what I learned was that I learned the dedication of these guys, they, they don't work.

professional runners over there, they get a wage off the government. So they don't actually have to go to work. They, uh, they wake up in the morning. Uh, they have like a couple of glasses of water, no coffee, no bulletproof coffee, no, you know, protein. I mean, nothing, they just wake up, have three or four glasses of water and can sometimes go off and do a 42 K run and then come back and, and then they have their breakfast and I guess I learned about their day.

Finn (05:28.459)
Yeah.

k morgan (05:50.882)
their daily routine and it really was wake up, run, eat, sleep, sleep in the daytime and then again have some, uh, I don't know, some errands to run and then run a second time in the evening, uh, have their dinner and go to bed and just repeat. It really was run, sleep and eat. You know, that's how that come. I think that's so good. It was their whole life. So it was everything.

Finn (06:18.722)
You know, it's in I don't know how it's like, you know, in the UK or in Europe or in other places you've lived, but I feel like here in America, one of the things that both allows us to succeed, but also holds us back is sort of this always on achievement culture. And because of that, there's a lot of people in the US that, for whatever reason, feel like it's hard to make running their one thing, because in the grand scheme of things compared to like being a lawyer

it's not seen as like as prestigious or something like that. And I'm not speaking for everybody, but for some people. And when I think about your time in Ethiopia, did seeing these people in that culture take the sport so seriously, give you sort of like confidence in your own pursuits to do it in a similar fashion?

k morgan (07:09.718)
You know, I guess when I was over there, I was on this particular training run. I think I was doing, it was a big day. I was doing a marathon because they actually do marathon distance in training, but they just might do it at a slower pace and do one section like 10 K at tempo. But they'll do the full distance. And I was running this marathon one day. Uh, and there's no water, you know, so my goal was to finish the marathon without running any water. And this girl ran past me.

The one thing about being in Ethiopia, I was always the slowest runner. So when you're around everyone who's faster than you, you're trying to up your game a little bit. So you're improving, which was great, which paid off when I came back to Europe. Um, and, and she ran past me and she was on the edge of what was aerobically possible for her. And I thought to myself, I guess maybe I was maybe feeling a little bit pessimistic that day or having a runner's low or something, but

I just saw it almost as this big kind of corporate, um, cash carrot hanging in front of her and that dream to be able to help her family and a village. And so these guys, they're not doing it like, you know, because, you know, one of the marathon runners asked me, you know, about the 50 K that I won. They said, what did you win? You know, how much money did you win?

And like I told them, ah, I didn't win anything. I didn't win any money. And they just looked really confused. Like, why are you doing it then? So I think in Ethiopia, you, there really are running from, you know, these cash prizes in these big marathons. And, um, it was inspiring and it was also upsetting at the same time, because. The woman who ran past me, who was on the edge of, like I say, what was aerobically possible was.

I don't know if she was like, would she have pushed herself that hard if there was no cash prizes at marathons? And it just begged that question to me. So, so I think also then there's the glory aspect as well, which obviously doesn't include money. So I just think I'm a little bit conflicted with the cash money prizes and how hard East Africans push themselves. Cause they're also, I mean, they all have one thing in common and they're all living in poverty.

Finn (09:32.789)
How about Thailand? When you think about the influence that Thailand had in your running, how you think about the sport, what impact did that have on you?

k morgan (09:42.354)
Yeah, I mean, Thailand is just a beautiful training ground for me. I have two places I go to, Koh Phangan where the film The Beach was conceived with Leonardo DiCaprio and I actually sometimes stay in the sanctuary where the whole concept was dreamt up. And then the other place where I stay is North Thailand, Chiang Mai.

And I guess when I'm in Chiang Mai, the mountains there, you know, I can go out on a training run and just from the start to the summit is about, I believe it's 6,000 feet. So if I do two repeats, I've got 12,000 feet. Um, and it's trail, there's no road. It's beautiful. I passed through a coffee plantation, these Homong village. I've made friends with these guys over the years and I stopped for a coffee at Chong Guaz. Um.

You know, like, uh, and the family, they have all a part in growing this coffee and processing it and yeah, it's just somewhere, which is so special to my heart. Um, the weather's hot and humid. I like that. And I'm able to just lose myself really just in the actual eat, run sleep of what Ethiopians do, but more in the environment of, um, Thailand.

Finn (11:02.486)
Where are you gonna base yourself the next like six to nine months? Will it be in a place like Thailand or Ethiopia? Will it be somewhere in Europe? Talk about that decision.

k morgan (11:11.806)
Okay. So I'm here now in Spain at my girlfriend's house. Uh, it's on the East coast of Spain, just across from Ibiza. So, uh, there's a mountain out the back. It's two miles away from where I am called Montgo and it's really rocket and Ari and, uh, what's that word? Arid and dry. Uh, there's not much vegetation. So it's, uh, a great training ground for the Appalachian Trail. So I'll be in Spain.

About January, I'll head over to Thailand, spend I think four months there. And then, uh, I think I'll be looking at spending a month actually training on the Appalachian trail. So Spain, Thailand, and actually then the Appalachian trail, maybe up towards, uh, Franconia the whites. I've got a friend there called Veronica leads. So she'll help me out there.

Finn (11:59.006)
Yeah. All right on. Cool. Well, one other thing I wanted to say, especially as it relates to your background, you know, we love to give other podcasts credit, you know, when it's due and you've done one really good one with the adventure jogger, a few really good ones with Zach Bitter, we'll link to those in the show notes because they do a great job of really like coherently going through your background. We sort of wanted to just fill in some of the blank spaces. Before we get into what you just did on the AT this past summer,

you know, from the interviews that I've listened to that you've done, you really seem to be a true, I call it like student of the game or a student of the trail. And I've heard you use the phrase, quote, get advice from those who have achieved what you want to achieve. And so I think before we get into this year's attempt to be fun to do like a rapid fire around people that have influenced you, I think starting with like Karl Meltzer, for example, when you think of Karl Meltzer,

I'm sure there are many things, but what's one thing you've learned about the Appalachian Trail or about record attempts that you have really successfully applied to your own pursuits?

k morgan (13:04.322)
From Carl in particular, you say? Yeah. I mean, Carl's been a great support over the years, always answering my emails and always available. Uh, so I mean, Carl has, you know, taught me many things and again, yeah, the reason I go to him for his advice is because, you know, at one point he was the record holder on the Appalachian Trail. Um, I remember last year when I stepped off trail on day 31, I was

Finn (13:05.89)
from Carl in particular.

k morgan (13:34.21)
feeling the pressure of my lead, head of Carol Sabay, by 31 days, I was, I had it, my 27 mile lead I had on Carol had come down to 10 miles and I got off trail and Carl emailed me and just said, Hey Christian, or he phoned me up and he said, you're like almost four days ahead of the second place, man. Like if you carry on now, you'll never regret, um, finishing the Appalachian trail and you'll

Your record will stand for years and you'll, you know, you'll be on the Appalachian trail podium, he called it. So don't just give up just cause you're not going to get the record. Keep on going. So I think what motivated me or what I learned from Carl is just because you don't reach what you actually set out to achieve, don't just throw in the towel and walk away, just, you know, keep on persisting and you, you know what he was right, cause I look back to last year and if I would have stopped on day 31, maybe I wouldn't have even gone.

back to the AT this year and I would have just felt like an eternal failure. So yeah, thanks to Carl Meltzer for that advice. And, uh, I, I soak up his knowledge, anything that he offers.

Finn (14:44.554)
You know, it reminds me, because you've had a lot of experience in this area, talk about the decision to sort of cut your losses versus seeing something through and finishing it. Um, in the impact that has on sort of your motivation, your inspiration to go back and try it again, because I feel like there could be a case for doing both in any given year, like maybe there is a benefit to cutting things short because you take less of a toll on your body, a less toll on your mind, and you're more fresh for the next year.

at the same time, maybe if you do finish it, there's a confidence in finishing and inertia for next year. How do you think about that? Like based off of Carl's advice there.

k morgan (15:24.574)
Yeah, I think actually when I threw the towel in it, it was because of pressure. And I was, I was 10 miles ahead of record pace when I stepped off trail and went to a hotel, motel. Uh, I mean, what made me get back on trail that day is simply because like Kyle said, I was four days ahead of second place or three, three or four days. So yeah, I mean, for four days. Uh, so at, at with, you know, as far as I got up to Vermont.

and I'd already run however many, you know, thousand miles, then that's not a time to throw in the towel, you know? But I think a time to throw in the towel, well, I've never really done it, I guess. Like you've asked how many record attempts I've had. In 19 and 21, I finished in Hot Springs. And I guess I threw the towel in then, but actually, you know, I think I'm the only athlete or ultra runner who has persistently, consistently gone back.

to do a long trail FKT in the world. I know Meltzer got it on his third time, but there's a, I think there's a, quite a large gap in between revisiting the Appalachian trail and I know Andrew Thompson got it on his third attempt, but again, large spaces of time in between each attempt, but I've consistently gone back to the Appalachian trail by 2020 when COVID and the pandemic stopped me to coming, like every single year. And even in 2020, I'd

Finn (16:25.016)
Yeah.

k morgan (16:51.326)
set the record on Britain's longest national trail. So I took what was available to me. So I think I'm the only athlete over a five year span who has been back every year to do such an attempt. It kind of makes me a bit crazy, I guess.

Finn (17:06.158)
Well, and that's a really interesting point too. And there are certainly a lot of athletes that will do that in a race context. Like for example, the Western States 100, they'll return me and Ian Charman, for example, went to Western States for 10 straight years. And when you look at Ian and the body of work there, he certainly became a subject matter expert and kind of improved year over year. Do you see a similar benefit with the AT like, is there, uh, like a knowledge enhancement, a physical benefit to.

getting your body accustomed to, hey, every single June or every single August, we're gonna be doing this thing, we're gonna get ready for it, et cetera.

k morgan (17:42.242)
mean, that's how it's working out now. Uh, we can get onto this a little bit later. Yes. I'm going to go back next year. So that would be my third year running if I complete the trail. Um, I mean, that's a big toll on the body as well. Also I'm coming to the end of, I think, um, my potential to be able to set records. I'm 46 years old. So, uh, I think this window now is, um,

a small window for me compared to it. For example, if I was 26, I could do this for 20 years. You know, I advise all the 20 something year olds who want to go out there and chase something, just keep on coming back and keep on failing because you're going to learn so much from your failures and failures and eventually just be able to go for it. I think if you go for like say a long trail and just give it one shot and give it up, I don't think you're giving yourself a route.

you're not doing justice to yourself, your potential or what you could achieve.

Finn (18:42.522)
And it's so interesting too, because at least on the American scene, when you think about people like Scott Jurek, he explicitly waited 20 years. He waited till the end of his career to do this because I think it was like David Horton who told him, if you do this when you're 28, you're going to curtail your career, you're going to burn way too many matches all at once, wait until you're, you know, in your early forties. But maybe what you're suggesting here is like, actually, like, I think people could.

do this in their mid-20s, get away with it, and still have like a solid, you know, amount of longevity in the sport.

k morgan (19:19.902)
Yeah, you know, I was out on the running track today. I've just started back, um, introducing running to myself and, you know, I was thinking to myself, there's so many different methods of training for something like this, you know, you've got the, obviously the more intense, the more intense you train for running, the less time you do the less intense you train, the more time you do. So I guess if you.

tried one year or two years of really low intensity, big volume training. That would be one way of approaching it. And then the other approach would be maybe high intensity with a small volume. But at this point, I don't really have time to explore these different areas. I'm kind of just going to go with what I know, what's working. And, but yeah, in your mid twenties, you could experiment with that stuff. And I think, yeah, it'd be interesting to see what comes of it, you know, uh, but yeah.

I'll stick with what I know for now.

Finn (20:20.094)
I definitely want to talk later in the conversation about how stout the current times are on the course and sort of like what's required to break the current record held by, you know, Correll, northbound and you southbound and in Jennifer Davis's time, etc. Do you think that there has to be a healthy even for a younger runner, even for somebody who's at the top of the game right now like a Jim Walmsley?

Do you think that these runners, if they are, if their interest is peaked, they still have to give a pretty healthy amount of respect to the trail and make it a multi-year project or can this be something where you can sort of be a one-hit wonder and like you see this small window of opportunity, you know, at age 31, you do it and you just throw everything into it for that one year.

k morgan (21:10.062)
I think you can take Carol's survey as an example. So he went in 2016 and beat Stringbean's 2015 Pacific Crest Trail record. I think he ran, I forget now, what was it? 51 days, maybe 52 days. And then this year he went back as, that was Carol's first attempt at something like that. And this year he went back as a experienced, you know, Appalachian trail record holder,

Uh, big backyard world champion and he went back and he took four days off, uh, Timothy Olsen's records and his own record. So it kind of just shows the room for improvement there. Um, and so, yeah, I think going in, you, you've got a, I mean, like I

I'm learning slowly. I'm a slow learner, I guess. You know what I mean? I helped Carol set the record in 2018 and I learned so much by being with him, but it took, you know, like I say, five years now to become, I mean, last year, you know, the second fastest in the world and this year's southbound, you know, record holder. But I'm, I'm constantly learning. I learned so much this year that, you know, now I can apply for next year. And

I guess you just got to hope that at 46, 47 next year that, you know, your body still holds out because I think that's the balance, isn't it? You know, having the knowledge and the experience, but having the strength of body as well as experience and strength of mind.

Finn (22:48.274)
It's interesting though, and I think I heard when you were talking with Zach Bitter about this, he might've stated explicitly, but one of you two was saying that the requisite pace to maintain sort of like a shot at the record is slow enough that, I mean, you could maybe still be in your mid-50s maintaining it and that most things come down to how fast you are in the non-moving parts of the experience. So is that something you still agree with or?

Is this increasingly becoming a young person's game?

k morgan (23:20.938)
No, I think like another one to take an example is, um, Harvey sweet land Lewis, you know, Harvey Lewis now he just did the bigs backyard and there's this photograph of him, I think he's like high-fiving someone or giving a thumbs up and then there's his competition next to him to, I don't know how much younger, but a lot younger than Harvey. And yeah, you don't need to run fast, you know, to win bigs backyard and.

I guess the Appalachian trail is somewhat similar, but there is a threshold. Like you can't now set the record on the Appalachian trail by just hiking. You know, you do have to run and I guess. Yeah. And there's going to be a threshold, but it is slow running. I mean, I was on the running track today, running a 10 minute warmup and I was running 12 minute miles and I thought this is a good pace on the AT.

You know, like five miles an hour. That's if you could do that all day, you would kill it. You'd, you'd break 40 days. So yeah. But having said that a flat running track with no rocks is different to going up um, the Wildcats or something, which then has to average out your pace on the Appalachian Trail. So yeah, I think there's a threshold to something that would be too slow and fast enough to break the record, but I think that's pretty low down. Um, you know, you.

Finn (24:15.458)
That's moving.

k morgan (24:41.086)
It's a, it's a, again, it's not just about your moving time. It's about your non-moving time and limiting that. So that's another thing I learned from Carl Meltzer is, you know, when I heard that he spends sometimes eight minutes in a hundred miler of non-moving time, eight minutes, and he's, you know, he goes like, let's say second place has 38 minutes, you know, he, that's just, he's just given him half an hour headstart.

So yeah, I think you're non-moving time, but there's definitely, I think, a threshold to where if you're running like 18 minutes and while I think that was probably too slow. So I think there's a threshold, but it's still pretty slow. Yeah.

Finn (25:16.771)
Thanks for watching!

Finn (25:21.074)
Yeah, because obviously Jen Farr Davis is famous for saying that, you know, back in, what was it, was it 2011 when she said her FKT, she hiked every step, right? And so you're, you're saying that those days are likely over in anybody that tries to, you know, take her record or take your southbound record or Correll's northbound record, there's going to be much more running involved.

k morgan (25:46.742)
Yeah, I mean, unless these people can survive for like a month and a half on say three, four hours sleep, then I think that's the thing. Cause if you can eat into your sleep time, you can hike all day on the trail. I think Jen Far Davis didn't have too much sleep. Whereas me, for example, I think I was averaging almost seven hours a night. So I could, yeah, so I could probably bring that down somewhat. I think I need to play with that next year and, uh, give my

Finn (26:07.554)
That's amazing.

k morgan (26:15.034)
you bring that down and, and still, I still, I still, I mean, I didn't, I think I only had three occasions where I felt any kind of sleep deprivation. And so I just took a trail nap, uh, for 10 minutes and, and I came back without, you know, and it worked. So yeah, I think I need to bring my, I need to experiment with that.

Finn (26:36.446)
And it could be possible, again, if I remember correctly, I think Joe McConaughey really rode a pretty fine line during his attempt where he, I think he was saying four or five hours a night, and he was solo, so I mean, that compounds even more, but he was riding a pretty thin sleep deprivation line.

k morgan (26:54.666)
You know, I don't have a podcast available right now to go back and have a look, but I did interview him when I was doing my podcast. Uh, you said I was a student or I'm a student in the sport. I did that, but I believe it was actually six hours. I think it was five to six hours rather than four to five. It was definitely not four. It was more like five to six, which is still again, I think the threshold again. Now I think that I don't know if you can bring that much lower with the sleep. So yeah, then you do need to.

Finn (27:04.397)
Yeah.

Finn (27:14.646)
Gotcha.

k morgan (27:24.278)
You know, obviously the faster you cover 53 miles a day, the more sleep you get, the more recovery you get. So it's having that balance.

Finn (27:33.93)
I have a couple more famous names from the trail that I want to throw out to you just to see what you've gleaned from them. The next one is Warren Doyle. When I say Warren Doyle, what comes to mind? What have you learned from him?

k morgan (27:38.296)
Yeah.

k morgan (27:45.75)
Warren Doyle, someone who's always got his door open for me. Um, and people who I guess are passionate for the Appalachian Trail and respect the trail. Um, Warren Doyle is someone who I went to his ATI, uh, last year Appalachian Trail Institute where it is like a five day course. Uh, he's for me, Warren Doyle is the living, uh, legend folklore legend of the Appalachian Trail. And.

Yeah, he's still here. So anyone who wants to learn about the 80, who has a chance to do one of his courses or his hikes, you know, he's not going to be here forever. And he's in his seventies. And I think Warren Doyle is an opportunity not to be missed and, and soak up his knowledge and his experience.

Finn (28:33.502)
Is it fair to say for Warren that if you, you know, take away like Earl Schaeffer and sort of the early generation, he is sort of responsible for establishing the modern FKT on the AT?

k morgan (28:45.79)
Yeah, I think that may be David Horton, but actually Warren Doyle was the set, the first speed record, I believe, like you say, takeaway L Schaeffer and these guys, I believe, I can't remember the time, 60 something days, but I believe he, you know, set the first kind of speed record on the AT and then David Horton kind of did it ultra running style and, you know, had the, um, you know, try and, try and get the, the.

What do you call it? Like stock car style approach. Pick crew. Yeah.

Finn (29:15.042)
Yeah, pit crew. Yeah. Maybe one more before we move on. And you can pick from one of these two but Heather Anderson, so Heather and Nish Anderson or Jenfarr Davis, what comes to mind for either of them?

k morgan (29:31.306)
Well, Heather, I really wanted her on my show and I reached out to her and she said she it's a hundred dollars. Like I had to pay her a hundred dollars to have her on the show. And, uh, since I explained that, you know, I actually pay for my show to go out and it's really more about sharing your story with people. So I asked her to reconsider, you know, and she said, no, it's a hundred dollars. And I kind of respected that in the end, everyone has to make a living. So I didn't really learn too much from Heather because I didn't get to speak with her. Um,

But Jen Farr Davis, I guess I met her husband, Brew. He was doing some folk singing and playing guitar in Tennessee, actually where Warren Doyle lives and Damascus. And it was cool. I was sitting sipping some bourbon and just listening to his music. It was a really nice time, but actually never got to speak to Jen Farr Davis either. So.

Yeah. I mean, only podcasts I've listened to, they're both amazing athletes, amazing people, very persistent and, um, yeah, I'd love to have a conversation with either one of them and both of them one day.

Finn (30:43.482)
That's fascinating by the way. So we're coming on about 300 episodes of this show and we have not yet encountered a request for fee for an appearance fee, I should say. So that's interesting. I have to, I guess be on the lookout for that in the future. Okay, that was awesome. I appreciate sort of the lightning round approach to that. The way I wanna set up the rest of the conversation, I've sort of created a couple buckets around the AT. The first is sort of the mental bucket, physical bucket.

k morgan (31:01.718)
Yeah.

Finn (31:13.654)
preparation bucket, the logistics bucket, and then sort of like looking to the future. I think it'd be fun to talk about at the end of the episode, just like how you're thinking about 2024. But starting with the mental, and I think this, again, even if you have no interest in the AT for the listeners and the viewers out there, there's a lot you can take away from your experience on the trail that you can apply to other races and stuff in UltraTrail. Earlier in the conversation, you were saying, I think it was in 2023, after...

k morgan (31:24.908)
Yeah.

Finn (31:43.182)
31 days and being ahead of record pace, you sort of, you kind of cracked under the pressure. And I'm curious what those days leading up to that moment felt like, like mentally, what were the thought patterns? Because I actually think it's kind of an optimistic scenario where when you think to 2024, the fact that it was more your mind than your body that let you down, I think it might be easier to fix the mind than it is to fix the body. So,

Yeah, talk about that experience if you don't mind.

k morgan (32:16.322)
So actually I did get a 12 mile lead on Carroll. I think it was up to Damascus in the border of Virginia, Tennessee, Virginia, and I had a 12 mile lead and I was feeling really good. Got through the Smokies and, um, and then I tweaked my, I forget if it was my left or on my right quad coming downhill into Damascus. So for two days I had to hike and during those two days I lost my 12 mile lead, but I managed to.

End those two days level par anyone who plays golf par just means equal distance. Um, not that I play golf, uh, but yeah, I was even with Carol, um, after two days of hiking. So, you know, that drew confidence that, Hey, if anything, like I get a quad injury, I can still hike, so I lost those 12 miles, but then up to almost the halfway point, I'd gained an additional 27.

So I actually had like 39 miles, you know, if it wasn't for that quad injury on Carol, so it, I guess it bummed me that I lost that 12, but the last couple of days, um, leading up to day 31, when I stepped off trail, I was thinking more about what a great athlete Carol Sabay was and less about what my objective was each day.

Finn (33:42.702)
Interesting.

k morgan (33:42.974)
So I was using more of my, I like the way the trail running nation shout out to, um, Don and Scott over there. Uh, I forget, I think it was, I forget which one of them it said, they called it mental gymnastics. And I really appreciated how they said how that burns energy. So I was doing mental gymnastics and, uh, Carol Sabay was the source of, um,

Finn (33:50.571)
Yeah.

k morgan (34:09.05)
entertainment in my mind. And I just burnt so much energy thinking about what a great athlete he was. So how could I take lessons from that forwards? Focus on what I'm doing, what my objectives are, you know, what I need to do to, obviously as you're moving on the AT, you need to eat, you need to hydrate. Uh, you need to make sure you're comfortable. There's no chafing going on. You need to move efficiently. You need to be in good communication with your crew.

You need to, there's so many things that you need to do. And as long as you're thinking how great your competition is, I think you'll be putting less energy into your tasks. So what I would take, um, moving forwards would be, Hey Christian, yeah, Carol's a great athlete, but let's just leave that outside of your attempt. And not, you know, uh, waste my energy on thinking about Carol and let's think about what a great athlete I am or how great could I be.

That's how I would change things for 24.

Finn (35:12.274)
I really appreciate that analysis. And one thing from that is interesting to me is obviously there have been some all-time greats that have done really cool things on the trail. You know, you mentioned Carell, obviously Scott Jurek, you know, many-time winner of Western states. And granted, there is a baseline level of athleticism required to do well here, and you're a great athlete yourself.

But at the same time, this also seems like one of the most like democratic slash accessible things to do in the sense that from what I gather, a lot of success on the trail does come down to how willing are you to grapple with like the recesses of your mind and all of these things telling you to stop for as long as possible. And I'm curious if you agree there, if it does at a certain point, largely become a mental game, or if...

it is a real concern to be, you know, intimidated by sort of like your ancestors on the trail.

k morgan (36:14.818)
You know, I think maybe I'm biased, but I think this is, I think any, um, I've heard it referred to as mega running and I really think that mega running

k morgan (36:30.606)
gives us the opportunity to enter in our minds more than any other sport that exists. Maybe I think if you're crossing the Atlantic in a yacht, I don't know how long the, I'm not, I'm just trying to think, do you know of any other sports where it takes more than a month and a half or to complete the objective?

Finn (36:51.778)
The only thing that I can think of is like the expeditionists like Shackleton going to the Antarctic or you know, like the Jimmy Chins of the world and the Conrad anchors who are trying to summit some crazy mountain that involves a lot of climbing, etc. like in Pakistan or the Himalayas. But these long trails are pretty unique for sure.

k morgan (37:13.286)
Yeah. So I would say the longer the duration, the more you could call it a test of endurance and it's not just physical endurance, it's of course mental endurance. So yeah, I would agree that as far as I'm concerned, in terms of ultra running, you know, this, this stuff that is thousands of miles really does start to test your mental, I mean, Carol Serbe said it himself, you know, um,

You know, like he, he might, he, I think he's quoted. I might not be great at UTMB, but you know, like these professional athletes, but get, you know, get me out on a thousand mile long trail and it turns into a mental strength game or a mental game. So yeah, I would agree that. I mean, you're, I mean, you're in your head from morning to night repeatedly for, you know, six weeks and, and how you think determines everything.

So you need to be on top of your mental game.

Finn (38:14.718)
You know, I've asked this question on the show once or twice before, and, you know, all I'm asking for from you is pure speculation based on your experience. But it seems to me, when we look at top athletes in the sport, we are willing to concede that from a physical standpoint, there's a distance between them and sort of like myself in the masses, like I can train as hard as I possibly can.

but there will be a limit where I can't quite get within striking distance of what they can do. But on the other hand, it does seem like we don't agree that there is a limit mentally and that we theoretically all could achieve the same level of sort of mental toughness and strength and resilience. Do you believe that to be the case that there are sort of two separate tracks for what is possible physically versus mentally? Like, because I always think of Karel Sabe as sort of this

a great example of like mental, like elite mental toughness. Do you think you could train your way to Carl's, Carell's level of mentality there, or does he have sort of a gift mentally that like Achillean has physically?

k morgan (39:26.838)
You know, you know how you can go into the gym and see who the, the most, uh, I guess the biggest bodybuilder is, you know, cause they're physically in front of you and you can see the shape of the biceps and the shoulders. And I'm not talking about like in terms of height, I mean, you know, um, I'm talking about in terms of muscle.

Finn (39:38.89)
Yeah.

k morgan (39:49.41)
You know, who's got the most muscle, who's got the most physical muscle. And I often imagine what it would be like if in life we could see people walking down the road and above them was like a balloon and that balloon would represent their mental strength. You know, I've often thought about this and it would be so cool because, you know, you got people who would just quit on everything and they'd have this tiny little Mickey mouse bubble.

Cause they quit everything because they're mentally weak and they'd never see anything through. And then like you say, you've got Carol coming through with this Titanic sized mental bubble. I know that doesn't answer your question, right? But, but like, uh, I think you're right. I think it's something that we can, uh, we can seek out and there's no limit. Is there with the mind, whereas physically you're right. I mean, I can't dunk a basketball. I probably never can, but.

Finn (40:25.967)
It does, it kind of does.

k morgan (40:43.434)
You know, there's, there's probably things I could probably master a language. Um, if I persist and carry on and learn a new language, but I'll never be able to dunk a basketball, I guess. So yeah, I kind of, yeah, I kind of, I find it really interesting what you're saying.

Finn (41:02.27)
In at least one of the interviews you've done when you've remarked on, you know, the moments when you've sort of like quote unquote surrendered internally, a lot of the times it's been because you've sort of convinced your mind or your body that you're kind of satisfied with what it's done to this point. And you kind of got what you came for and it's time to sort of like throw in the towel. And I, I can relate to that, not at the level that you are athletically, but in my own.

experiences sort of like just quitting because I've convinced myself that I'm satisfied. What tools and tactics since those moments have you have you trained yourself on to be more like mentally bulletproof and unsatisfied in a good way to keep going?

k morgan (41:50.23)
So yeah, that was actually what pulled me off trail last year. So what happens is you become, um, like I said, I'd be, I, the pressure of what a great athlete, Carol Sabay was started to crush me mentally and crush me. And then, so what then happens is you start looking for excuses. And my excuse was, Hey, I'm actually satisfied in life. Why am I, why am I doing this?

I don't really want to do this. You know, I don't want to be here. I don't want to go through hardship. And then you get off trail. I mean, for everyone listening, I did get back on trail and I did set the second fastest time ever. However, I didn't, I was ahead of record pace before I got off trail. So what's the difference from last year and now this year when I had this, I had a similar hardship, but it was early on and by the way, Finn, I don't know if you know this, but last year I got off trail at a certain

Um, road crossing in Vermont and this year, do you know, I got off trail because of a kind of a injury and I took a 20, a time period out in a motel. Did you know? Yeah. And it was the same road crossing in Vermont. So like someone's already commented since I said that I'm going to go for the record in 2024, you need to like get someone to exercise the demons that are at that road crossing in Vermont, cause they're going to be trying to pull you down.

Finn (43:00.036)
No.

Oh my gosh.

k morgan (43:16.022)
So what I learned last year, um, from last year, sorry, you know, when I got off trail, uh, because I had this kind of overuse injury from running in mud for just days and days, and it's almost like I was using muscles in my lower legs that I hadn't trained for, you know, I hadn't run in mud for hours and hours and I hadn't trained for it. So I got an overuse injury and it was really painful. So I took off.

I think I did 12 miles or 16 miles, then got off trail, went to a motel, um, and then got back on trail the next day. But the whole time that this was happening last year, I was stressed. I was saying, I quit, you know, this is over. I can't do this. And this time, um, I was just taking the approach of, you know what? I'm listening to my body. I'm guys. I'm really excited about getting back on trail tomorrow. It's okay. And it didn't weigh down on me heavily and it didn't burn.

my energy. So I guess the difference between last year and this year is

That false belief that we're content in life, that I was content with my life, you know, is not true because as soon as I get off trail, give it a day, a week or a month, I'm going to regret every excuse that I agreed with in my mind. I'm going to regret them all. And, and, and so what you think you feel at the time feels so true and honest and privileged, oh, you know, this is how I really feel it's an excuse for me.

Finn (44:49.858)
This to me is like one of the central mental questions that deep into the AT how do you manufacture ambition and, you know, hunger for the record, in spite of all the suffering and work you've already done. Like one of the examples I use, I have a lot I have a lot of different types of friends and the friends that I admire the most from a mental toughness standpoint, coincidentally happen to be the ones that are first or second generation.

immigrants to United States, I said they have that immigrant energy where they're still trying to like, create a place here in America and, and set things up for, you know, sort of like their offspring and future generations, whereas I have friends who've been here forever, and they just kind of take so much in life for granted. And they just kind of sit back and rest on their laurels. And whenever I'm in ultras, I'm always trying to capture some of that immigrant energy, as I call it. I know that's kind of a weird example. But

tried to been, I've been searching for ways to, to manufacture this in my own life. And I think maybe that's one of them, I don't know.

k morgan (45:55.25)
Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you've got it easy in life, uh, and we all do, I guess, with a Western, with an American passport, you know, I lived in Ethiopia and it's a struggle for these guys to even get permission to leave their country. So we're privileged without knowing, I guess, and, um, you know, people who come from more hardship and more poverty. Um,

will probably appreciate and fight more than someone who takes things for granted. So I guess, yeah, maybe experiencing or seeing with your own eyes, the hardship that people go through in this world. And, and I think as you go on, I mean, my father just passed away a couple of weeks ago and, um, no, it's, I was lucky in life to have such a wonderful person to spend my childhood and to be raised by. But.

Finn (46:37.568)
I'm sorry to hear.

k morgan (46:47.57)
I don't know. I think that's actually, I'm pretty sure that's going to change my approach as well to life. I think in general, I was with my girlfriend today and we're in the kitchen and you know, we just play, I mean, we play all the time, you know, chase around or put some music on or we smiling, we're eating some good food. And you know, I was, I just said out loud, you know, you know, this is, um, this is temporary, you know, and this, you know, I don't want to seem really dark and, um,

sounding depressive, but these happy times that we're just taking for granted right now, it's temporary and it'll be a memory one day either with you or with me because, not because our relationship is going to break up or it could be, or one of us passes away, but I just think also experience, yeah, experiencing my father pass away, pass away, sorry, I think is, is going to change me as a person and just make me appreciate more these things that we just take for granted, which relationships as well.

Finn (47:19.339)
Yeah.

k morgan (47:46.026)
Not just position in life or geographical location, but you know, your mom, your sister, I mean, these are, or whoever is special in your life and you have a relationship with, I think, yeah, like we, these relationships are temporary, but it's a real privilege to have these relationships. So I don't know what that's got anything to do with manufacturing ambition to stay going through hard times, but, um, but.

Uh, yeah, maybe went on off on a tangent. I still haven't found the answer yet because I still don't have that overall record on the 80, but if I get it and when I get it, I'll maybe try and bottle it and sell it.

Finn (48:26.518)
Well, it reminds me because I have to imagine this is an important component of getting ready for the trail and then feeling like you're supposed to be there when you're on the trail. When you think about the last four attempts, have you always had sort of like the quote unquote approval from your close friends and close family that, you know, you should be there and you're in your element and you're living out your truth and you're doing something cool? Or was there any

Did you ever go into any of these attempts, feeling like you didn't always have like the full support of everyone that you needed support from?

k morgan (49:02.122)
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. My dad didn't really understand it. He used to like make my dad was a great comedian. He would joke about me being, you know, someone who, who enjoys punishing himself and, you know, why are you doing this? Whereas my mom was fully supported, supportive of what I was doing and actually became involved over the years. She, for everyone listening out there, the gun section.

is the trail name of my mother. So my mother and gun section are one and the same person. So she supported me and, um, encouraged me to, you know, like, think, think mammothly and it, and go after what you want, don't just, you know, I love this quote and I, you know, don't dream, wake up and live it, you know, that, you know, like, and my mother's one of these people. So I've had great support on my mother's side, a bit of misunderstanding or.

Finn (49:31.702)
Cool.

k morgan (49:55.326)
not understanding on my father's side, friends, uh, you know, and for a run of friends admire and, and enjoy what I chase after and what I do. But you know, Finn, it's just something that comes from within me. I mean, I don't know. I didn't seek out the appellation trail. It kind of, it kind of found me through Carol Sabay asking to help support him. And, you know, I've just got this calling inside of me and I have nothing to do with it. I really don't have a choice. I

Uh, just unfollowing the feeling inside of my heart and I want to go back. I want to see what I can do. And I guess, um, having the support of people around you is great. There are a couple of trolls out there, you know, online and stuff. And some people say some negative things and often it's the 99 good comments that. You know, don't get your attention as much as the one bad comment, but, um, in general, I think, yeah, 99% of people.

understand me and encourage me and appreciate me doing what I enjoy doing.

Finn (51:00.778)
Well, I really appreciate it and admire it. And I think, you know, for whatever reason, probably many reasons, it's increasingly difficult in society to listen to sort of your intuition and to honor your callings. And you're definitely a great example of somebody that has not ignored their callings and sort of what they should be doing. And like, you definitely appear to be living your truth, which I think regardless of whether you understand the AT or not, it's a great example to set. So.

It's definitely appreciated from here.

k morgan (51:31.842)
Thanks, Finn. You, um, yeah, you, you asked some nice questions and you have some nice insights yourself, so, and like I said, that day I saw you on trial, you just gave off a good vibe, so I was watching, uh, the Alpinist. I'm part watching, we end up part watching films in, cause we never stay awake the whole time, so I'm part watching the Alpinist, but I've already, this is my third time watching it, so I love sharing these things with people and, um.

Do you remember the protagonist's name? Have you seen it? He's a French Canadian.

Finn (52:06.61)
Yep, I do. The name is escaping me, but I've also seen it a couple times. He does sadly end up end up dying at the end, right? Yep, okay.

k morgan (52:14.11)
Yeah, that's correct. Well, he goes to, I forget, I think he's in the Andes. Um, and one of the local guys says, I think he's, I think we're talking about the climber, I think the climber, whatever his name is, has spent so much time, Mark Andre Leclerc has spent so much time in the mountains that I think the mountains have touched him in a way.

Finn (52:31.062)
Marc Andre, Marc Andre Leclerc, I think it is.

k morgan (52:40.282)
And influenced him to in a beautiful way. And I just think that, yeah, I think maybe ultra running does allow us to get out and spend time away from screens, um, spend time sometimes away from people and just spend time in nature. And I think the more you can do that, the more you can, um, that there's this kind of common thing within us, I guess, in this sport where we can just say, Hey, you know, like, um, I reached.

deep within, within nature and within myself today. And I think that's a nice thing to share with people. So yeah, I can, I can feel you've dug deep in your altars.

Finn (53:21.523)
One more question on sort of the mental front and then I want to talk more about like pacing and the physicality of it. How do you differentiate between what is worth listening to in your mind versus what is not worth listening to? Because I think especially on a long trail FKT attempt, I'm curious to know like, when is your mind tricking you versus actually alerting you to something that's

not necessarily life threatening, but like possibly putting you in a seriously negative long-term condition, like, you know, doing something to your hamstring that you can't recover from or your knee cartilage, like, like talk about sort of that dance, you have to play with your body.

k morgan (54:04.454)
You know, I think I have this belief that, um, that my deep belief is that everything is going to be okay. Everything will be okay. And that's in terms of the, you know, whether I'm running an ultra, the existence of planet earth within the universe, just, I have this, and I have to remind myself cause I sometimes forget and I get stressed, but if I come back to you don't, you know, what everything is going to be okay, that kind of answers everything, every.

think I encounter in life, it's just the one answer. Everything will be okay. So I guess, often when you have a problem physically, to be more specific, like you say, you have a, yeah, I mean, I'll give you an example this year. I had a pain in my lower right leg, and I just kept on telling myself mentally, oh Christian, it's okay, I was speaking to my body, you can do this, you can do this.

And then eventually my body spoke back to me and it said, Christian, right. I need some time. I can't do this. And I got down on my hands and knees and I was crawling for a little bit. And I started crying and I apologized to my body and I said, Hey, I'm going to take you to a motel and this is where I happened to get off in Vermont this year, and I'm going to give you some rest. And I'm excited about getting on trail and seeing what you give me tomorrow. And I got off trail and listened to my body. It got back on trail and set the second fastest, sorry, set the southbound record.

on the Appalachian Trail. So listening to my body that day really paid off. So I guess you just got to listen to your body rather than listening to your mind sometimes.

Finn (55:44.191)
Christian, I have somebody knocking at the door. Can I pause for a second, come right back? Give me 30 seconds.

k morgan (55:47.882)
Yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Finn (56:39.51)
Sorry about that. Okay. Transitioning over sorta to like the physical demands of this race, the pacing of this trail. I've heard Joe McConaughey use a phrase, run slow to be fast, and you've agreed with that approach to the trail. Talk about that a bit more and how that becomes just like an important part of the AT.

k morgan (56:40.694)
No worries, no worries.

k morgan (57:08.97)
Actually, I think that was Carol this year. Yeah. Um, on the PCT, um, I mean, a hundred percent. I totally agree. You know, I remember, I remember actually Joe McConaughey when he went for his self supported attempt and successful on the Appalachian trial, he said, anytime he tried to run faster, he would feel it either the next day or later on. And, you know, it would just, uh, come back to bite him. And my two.

Finn (57:11.146)
Was it Carl? Okay.

k morgan (57:37.91)
completions of the Appalachian Trail this year and last year. Um, also the same thing. Uh, I believe it, you know, if you kind of push, um, you'll, you really need to, it's, I guess it's like pacing yourself to the most extreme you could even imagine. So you're running, okay, can I run a pace that I can keep up for a six week period for 15 hours a day?

You know, so that's, you know, that's quite an exaggerated pace to do, but if you start running, say anywhere in zone three, like you're getting into the tempo, um, I just think the, the body, uh, you know, doesn't want to do that. Um, because it's unsustainable. Like you can't run, you know, over that terrain. I guess if you ran in zone three, you'd finished 50 then

quicker than 15 hours. I guess that's the question, isn't it? Like that's where these young 20 something year olds could, hey, what if, what if I do like a 10 hour, 50 mile every day and recover from 14 hours a day? So, I mean, I guess I don't know the answer, but I think, I mean, it can still be played with. So, um, but the way I approach it is, you know, having that comfortable pace, it's more zone one, zone two, conversational all day pace. And yeah, if I found.

Finn (58:36.319)
Yeah.

k morgan (59:03.722)
I mean, definitely coming downhill. I think if you try to run downhill fast, then, you know, uh, you're going to kind of pay for that. You really have to go gracefully.

Finn (59:16.29)
And it makes me think like, when you think about the increasing need to run or jog more of your mileage on this trail, what is that? What is zone one and zone two jogging look like on the trail and like, I mean, I have so many questions to you, but like, like you said, like the banking mileage pushing on a particular day because that section is sort of inviting to pushing things. But yeah, like starting with sort of the decision to run versus hike.

What's been your approach there?

k morgan (59:48.766)
Yeah, well, when I was with Carol in 2018, uh, often I was behind him. You know, I did, I think it was around 35 miles a day. I did 15 days with him. And often when he was jogging on a flat section, I would hike behind him, brisk hike to see how that worked out.

what pace he was going in comparison to me. And I always found out a super brisk hike was slower than a slow run. So I found slow running faster than, uh, fast hiking, if that makes sense. So there's that threshold, you know, you can hike as fast as you can, but slow running is going to be faster than your, you know, uh, cause a slow run is like, what, 12 minutes a mile? That's a pretty slow run.

Finn (01:00:39.394)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:00:41.334)
But if you're hiking 12 minutes a mile is kind of really fast. Um, so I think there's that, there's that crossover. So yeah, I found, you know, like, uh, just, uh, jogging everything I could, the flats, the gentle inclines and the downhills over hiking would get me further and faster down the trail.

Finn (01:01:02.998)
Is there any point in the attempt, maybe it's when you're five days out or 10 days out or X number of days out where you feel comfortable taking more risks with your pace and your daily mileage or sleep? Or do you have to be pretty consistent and super calculated right up until the end? Or are you just so beat up that like your best is three miles an hour no matter what?

k morgan (01:01:29.078)
No, I think that you, I think taking risks with your pace, I don't think is possible because you kind of had, have this set internal pace, you know, your body, like I said, you listen to your body, not your mind, and you can't push yourself all day. Whereas you, if you just listen to your body, you don't need to push yourself. Your body will go how it wants to, but in terms of sleep, and in terms of how far you push, whether it's 51 miles or 56,

then that is, you know, that's the, that's the gamble or that's the risk. And you can play with those, uh, what do you want to call them? Um, factors or elements, but I think pace, this is only for me personally, is something that I haven't really, um, played with it. It just seems to be, I just go the pace I go. Uh, but yeah, I think the sleep and the distance are definitely things that you can

Cause I always had different options when I was on the trail. So my crew would say, Christian, you can finish. Um, like actually I slept out quite a lot by myself on the trail and, uh, had to carry in my tent and my sleeping bag, um, and air mattress and stuff. And it was either finish at 45 miles or hike in seven miles. Oh, I call it hiking, hike, jog in and then, and finish the day at 52 at this shelter.

So after and I took those options just to, you know, to like do a normal day since 45 miles isn't going to get you where you need to be in terms of record. Uh, so yeah, the fact is that you can definitely play with and it is like a game of chess in that sense.

Finn (01:03:13.102)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I look at all the people that have been successful on this trail or even attempted the trail, one of the constants has been really no matter what at some point in time, you're going to deal with some sort of injury. It's going to hamper your progress. It's going to make you want to quit. And I've heard you say in other podcasts that at least in your experience, it can be possible to quote unquote recover on the move. So I'd love to hear you talk about this.

how you mentally prepare for sort of inevitable injuries, how you physically get through it and any surprises you've seen, because obviously you have worked through these things and finished the trail. So this has always been a concern for me when I think about the AT. So talk about that.

k morgan (01:03:58.622)
Yeah. You know, like I think unless you, uh, I always see things like this as. Venturing, like being a pioneer, you know, the first that like Carol Sabay is a pioneer on the Appalachian trail and everyone, um, slower than him, including myself and not really pioneers, uh, because we haven't gone into the unknown. We've gone.

maybe into the unknown of our own personal limits, but in terms of human potential. So when I injured my quad last year, coming into Damascus, I knew a human being had already recovered himself and finished the trail and set a record, Scott Jurek with the same injury. So I took great inspiration that someone else had done that. And I hiked for two, I mean, I hiked the rest of the day I injured my quad.

Finn (01:04:42.494)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:04:52.846)
Uh, I think I still made three miles that day, but I'd run most of the day. And then day two, I hiked all day. And then day three, I started to jog in the mornings to see if I could jog. And I just physically could not jog. You know, I had a sharp shooting pain. So I hiked again, and then the start of day four, I started to jog and the pain had disappeared. So I did definitely heal a quad injury on the go, uh, just by hiking and not jogging. So that, that's a.

That scientifically happened. That wasn't a theory that really happened. You know.

Finn (01:05:28.974)
This is, I mean, you're kind of creating like early science on recovery on the trail, right? Like, I mean, I'm sure a lot of physical therapists would say, I don't see this anywhere in the literature, but you've lived it. You've lived sort of like the rejuvenation of these injuries in real time.

k morgan (01:05:45.994)
Yeah, I was speaking to someone else about this, uh, saying, you know, is it really better to just sit down and recover this way, or is it better to just move? You get more blood flow, you know, there's a lot more blood flow into the area. And, you know, the hiking wasn't causing me any problems. I wasn't in pain. The running was of course. Um, so I just took what I had and I think I had a similar experience in 2020 when I set the record on.

You know, Britain has its own long national trail, 630 miles. It's the Southwest coast path. So it's all coastal, no tree coverage, like the Appalachian trail, very rocky, very beautiful. And on the last day I injured my quad. Um, and, and I just took inspiration actually from living in Ethiopia and seeing the street, there's a lot of people who live on the streets in Ethiopia. And a lot of them are disabled.

Um, because they don't get medical care and they're just, you know, if their cuts go septic, maybe their leg has to be, I don't know, like it just doesn't work anymore and they have to move their body in ways that like fully functional human beings don't need to. So I took great inspiration of these street, um, homeless people living on the street, moving any, I mean, there's one guy, I think he literally had no legs and he would

come on a skateboard, you know, there was someone else who like walk side was down the road like a crab. And, uh, I, I think I've borrowed tactics from the crab guy. And I remember running the last 109 miles of the Southwest coast path with a sidewards kind of limp because it didn't cause me pain. So what happened was I didn't listen to my mind and say, Hey, Christian, you're injured, it hurts. I found a way around physically. I listened to my body. I moved sideways for a hundred miles or whatever.

Finn (01:07:12.226)
Ha!

k morgan (01:07:40.106)
and I set the record. So again, I listened to my body and on that occasion I was a pioneer. It was pretty sweet.

Finn (01:07:49.19)
I love the pioneer analogy and there's another term or phrase you used, I think you called it battle fitness, right? Battle fitness is when you're sort of persevering in spite of these injuries and it can only kind of happen on the AT.

k morgan (01:07:59.814)
I mean, it actually comes from war, doesn't it? Ed Hansen is a good friend of mine. Shout out to Ed, always buying me coffee. He lives in London and he was in the army. And he, when I was on the Southwest Coast path and I did sustain this injury, he said, Christian, when I met him for a coffee, which he bought, he said, Christian, you know, you possess this thing. We call it in the army battle fitness. And I asked Ed to explain to me what it was. And he told me the ability to move forwards.

despite being physically injured and finding a way around that. And, uh, you know, I don't want to take away anything away from people who really are in battles and are in life threatening situations, but I just borrowed some of what those guys possess, you know, and I didn't even know I borrowed it. Ed told me I had, and, uh, yeah, to the ability to move while injured and find a way to move forwards is called in the army, a battle fitness.

Cause if you stay where you are, the enemy is going to catch you. Right. So, yeah.

Finn (01:09:03.026)
I love it. Yeah. And another phrase you've used is break down to break through and sort of allowing yourself to move forward. And I love that description as well. Do you do is it fair to say for anybody that is listening or watching this conversation and they're thinking to themselves, I want to give a go at the ATFKT. Is it fair to say that they should game plan for this battle fitness? They should game plan for the moment when they have to decide whether

they want to move forward on like a torn hamstring or something with their calf or shin splint, something of that nature.

k morgan (01:09:38.974)
Yeah. I mean, like if you're going to go for the Appalachian trial, 2000 miles, you need to one be prepared to, like you said, I said, break down because if you're not prepared to break down, um, you're going to come to a, um, a dead end. And the only way to get through the dead end is allow yourself to break down and, and go beyond and break through mentally. And then the other one is, yeah. Uh, again, yeah, we could use the term battle fitness.

Be prepared to come up with some physical discomfort or injury and find a way around that because it might not happen, but it might just happen as well. So yeah, break down, break through and, uh, make sure you got your battle fitness game.

k morgan (01:10:31.756)
Yeah.

Finn (01:10:33.494)
The whole run of the AT is on Strava. And I don't know if this is true, but to my knowledge, it is the only Appalachian Trail FKT attempt end to end documented on Strava. Talk about that decision. Cause I think it's super cool that you, I mean, in addition to having your live tracker, you opened up all the data to the public, which is super cool.

k morgan (01:10:56.702)
You know, like Carol has part like, you know, so obviously like I helped Carol in 2018 and when I went back to study the record, my first attempt was northbound, so you want data, you know? And I went back to his data on Strava and I found it was inconsistent. There was days missing. Um, and you know, I mean, for me, you know, I've been using, I don't know. Can I say a brand? Can I?

Finn (01:11:22.478)
Sure, sure, sure.

k morgan (01:11:23.798)
I've been using Garmin watches since I began ultra marathon running because the battery is amazing and the technology. And I thought, you know, in this day and age, it's not, it's not justified to not have a full GPX file and upload on Strava because, um, unless your watch breaks, the technology is available. So it was really important. I mean, I have last year and this year, every single day is documented on Strava.

And I think that's, you know, important, not just, I mean, I like it, you know, I like seeing my runs on Strava. So I think Harold maybe had his watch set to some kind of ultra track mode or something and the satellites didn't work, but yeah, not saying that he wasn't transparent or anything, I'm just saying that from the mistakes I saw with his documentation on Strava, I decided to try not make those mistakes and.

just use a full GPX, because when you've got your GPX watch to get geeky and technical, you can have like ultra track, which records your, and for me it's not accurate, so I just went for full accuracy, record every second GPS and get the full run recorded. So yeah, I just like it, I enjoy it.

Finn (01:12:48.798)
these down because I didn't want to mess them up, but in a typical week, by my calculations, you did about 100 hours time on feet, about 350 miles, 60 to 80,000 feet of climbing for our American listeners, and about 15 to 16 hours on trail each day. Is there anything in that data that you've studied about your own attempt that in hindsight interests you that you might try to tinker with in the next go-round?

k morgan (01:13:15.818)
Yeah, next time, uh, what I'll do is I was removing my watch. So I had two Garmin watches with me and I would take them both off to go to sleep. I just felt it was nice to have nothing on my wrists, but next year, I definitely think I'm going to keep one watch on just cause I want to analyze the sleep data. Um, because I can't really remember.

there's no way of actually looking how much sleep I had, unless you look at an activity ending at say 9 p.m., guessing I took in between 30 minutes and 60 minutes to go to bed, but then you're still gonna be inaccurate of 30 minutes. So I'd like to keep my watch on the full time and get my sleep data as well. I think that would be really cool. And also not just that, sorry, also my resting heart rate while I'm sleeping. I think that would be super cool as well.

Finn (01:14:02.358)
But... Yeah, yeah.

Finn (01:14:08.554)
I wonder, and again, no affiliation here on our end, but I wonder if an Ura Ring could help in that situation too because it's slightly less sort of cumbersome. You just have it on sort of like one of your fingers and that can track data as well. I wonder how that data quality compares to, you know, like a Coros or a Garmin or a Suunto watch tracking like wrist-based stuff.

k morgan (01:14:29.59)
You just made me laugh. I just thought about like seeing my girlfriend at the top of Katahdin, you know, she's come to the trail and suddenly she sees this ring on my finger. She's like, did you get married on trail?

Finn (01:14:37.717)
Hahaha!

Finn (01:14:42.274)
That's awesome. But the sleep stuff would be fascinating. I think that would be like REM cycles and stuff, how much you're recovering. Yeah.

k morgan (01:14:43.007)
That'll be fun.

Yeah, because that-

k morgan (01:14:50.026)
No, I'd, I'd be a, yeah, that would be really interesting. I think this kind of stuff's important to look back on, you know, to kind of guess how many hours you slept is not really the way to scientifically analyze your data.

Finn (01:15:05.082)
getting into sort of preparation and execution for these attempts and we kind of talked about it at the top of the conversation but like you know you've done this four times now it seems like you've made good progress year over year each time. A lot of people worry that these that even just one long trail FKT attempt like changes you physically and mentally in a bad way like you've just burnt so many matches all at once but

When I look at you, maybe even Joe McConaughey is another example, like you guys seem like you can return to form pretty well. Has that been your experience and like, what do you attribute it to?

k morgan (01:15:46.41)
Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't want to act like I'm anything different from anybody else. Um, you know, like, uh, I don't know. I guess actually I really want to get back into my a hundred mile races. Uh, I love running a hundred K a hundred miles. I mean, I just love trail running, you know, and I guess the thing is when you're training for something like the Appalachian trail, uh, you know, uh, I, me personally, I've.

I haven't done as many hundred milers and I just spend a lot of times in the mountains and, uh, just normal training. But I'd like to get back to that. I mean, in terms of my motivation to train my love of running and my love of my relationships, people in my life, I think it's enhanced all of the above. Um, has it made me a faster marathon or not? I don't know, cause I haven't been out to run a marathon yet, but I still at

Like I'm definitely inspired to still go for a marathon PB. I want to do some different stuff after the Appalachian trail. Um, and I want to, you know, go back to my a hundred mile races and stuff. So, but you know, the physical impact and stuff, I don't know what really long-term effects it has on me, but in terms of mentally, you know, I mean, I love trail running, I love everybody even more, so it's enhanced my life. I think.

the experience.

Finn (01:17:14.058)
This is super woo and I'm probably not backed by anything in the scientific literature, but I strongly believe that if you go into the trail experience thinking that it's going to just blow you up and be the last significant thing you do physically in your life, it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy and it is going to blow you up and you aren't going to recover from it. But if you do go into it believing that it's going to be one part of a much larger narrative

many more, you know, figurative at bats in your career, then that's going to play out as well. And I'm curious if belief, if like self belief for you has been an important component in

k morgan (01:17:54.582)
It's everything, Finn. It's everything. I mean, Bruce Lee said the man who thinks he can win ultimately is the man who wins and I, you know, I've always believed self belief is everything. Cause if you don't believe in yourself, you're not even going to try, you know, I mean, everything begins in the mind or the heart as a dream, a vision. And then, you know, first you take a step and, you know, then you take a few steps and eventually.

You know, you're, you're achieving what you dreamt of, but it all starts in the mind and, um, I think it's everything. I, like you said, I, I mean, I don't know where we're going to be in a hundred years or a thousand years, but. And in terms of this mental strength and you know, what we can do, maybe we're already there. I mean, look at what people are doing in the world. It's amazing, you know, inventing. Me and you now are in different countries. We're speaking to each other. We're on video.

Finn (01:18:49.995)
I know.

k morgan (01:18:52.082)
And when you're out on the Appalachian Trail and you're looking at the rocks and the trees, I often think, how can you make an iPhone like out of these old trees on the floor and the rocks and stuff? And I think we're probably already there. Just, you know, but yeah, I think you got to believe, you got to believe.

Finn (01:19:13.75)
When you were talking about the pioneer component to this earlier, it kind of gave me goosebumps because I do think, you know, when we think about where some of the most interesting performance and mental breakthroughs are, a lot of it does happen on these long trails. And there is still so much to be solved in like the Appalachian Trail puzzle. Carl has contributed a lot, but I still think there are pieces. Pretty broad question.

But when you think about the A.T. puzzle and what's left to figure out, what's the most interesting piece of the puzzle left in your opinion to solve for?

k morgan (01:19:53.118)
Yeah, I think, I think it comes down to, you know, there's, there's elements which you can't control, like you can't control the weather. Um, and I had some pretty bad weather to start off with. In fact, it delayed me by a month and a half that the trail was closed. Hikers were told to leave the trail. A lot of diversions. Um, so you can't control that stuff. I guess what interests me is I think a little bit about what you said.

factors which you can gamble with. And I think really a successful attempt is almost like a successful gamble. You know, um, having the self belief that I'm going to gamble to do what I need to do today in order to achieve the record. And it is a gamble because if you're always within your comfort zone and saying, you know what, I want eight hours sleep each night. I only want to do 45 miles to make sure I'm not too tired tomorrow.

You're totally not going to get the record, but if you go out there thinking, well, I believe I can do it and I'm going to gamble and let's see what happens. So I guess it's a gamble. It is, it is a gamble because you don't know. If like, again, you say about pacing, you know, when I go for the record next year, I'm going to go northbound. So I'll know exactly where I am against Carol and I'll try to get a lead, um, incrementally day by day throughout the whole attempt.

And that's a gamble and at any point my body could break down or I could have a mental breakdown, but I guess if I'm prepared and have the self belief to take that gamble, great things could happen.

Finn (01:21:36.722)
When I think of like the things that you've contributed sort of to the knowledge base for the AT, two that come into mind are A, sort of like the permission and the example of maintaining high performance in consecutive years on the trail. That's a big thing as opposed to like these one-off experiences. And then also your foot care routine. Like from what I can tell, you're one of the few people that has like really taken care of your feet super well end-to-end on the trail.

Is there anything else like that comes to mind that you feel like has been something that you and your team has figured out and people are now like acknowledging that and replicating it in their own attempts?

k morgan (01:22:18.574)
Well, I definitely think, yeah, you're right. Footcare is really important, but outside of that, I think dispute, because like arguments really take a toll on the crew and the runner. These, we're talking about a supported attempt here, you know, self-supported is something different, but when you're involving other people, conflict, in the early days, I mean, can you imagine what it's like, working with

Finn (01:22:35.18)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:22:48.082)
someone who's also your mom on the Appalachian Trail and her giving her advice and you being independent and an adult and not really wanting to take it. And my approach in the early days were to just dispute with her, to have these almost arguments and disagreements. And I feel it didn't really get us very far. And eventually I just accepted, I just accepted my mother's presence and just say, okay, you know, I think.

I'm just, she's good. She's doing the best she can. And if I think she can do better, I'm wasting my mental energy because she's already doing the best she can. So just accept what you have with your crew. Try not to get into big disputes. And, uh, I think that way we worked effortlessly. And I also have to mention Iceman, um, who's a 72 year old. I want to get that right. 72 or 73. He, him and gun section were my two man.

or two person crew for this record attempt. And there was no disputes between these guys. They always seem to be getting along so well. And me and these guys also got along well. So I feel we got along as a team. Um, and as, as a, a team working together on one project and one goal, I thought we got along really well.

Finn (01:24:12.018)
You know, again, going further into some of the decisions you made, one of them was just the amount of the trail that you ran completely solo despite having the opportunity to be supported. I think the ratio was maybe like 90% of your miles, like at least 2000 of the miles were solo, maybe 150 to 200 were with pacers. Talk about that decision and whether that was ultimately a net benefit to your efficiency and your speed or

if you would experiment with more mileage with more paces on trail.

k morgan (01:24:46.154)
Yeah, another question of paces is really interesting because I actually think having, you know, paces with you, first of all, the pacer has to contribute to your performance on, on the day. So if that person is going to slow you down in any way, like, um, that may not be cool, you know, cause you're out on trail and, and maybe you're, maybe you're talking more or.

But if that person can be with you and enhance your performance or maybe just help maintain your, all your performance, then that's a good idea. I mean, it's really tough. Everybody's so individual. I did have some people come and join me on the trail who actually stressed me out a little bit because they went against, um, some of the things that my crew had. Uh, you know, for example, towards the end. I had.

four people who wanted to run with me. And I said, hey guys, listen, I'm gonna put in my 50 mile day and then I'll do 10 miles with each of you. And then that way I can divide the 40 miles up of the end of the trail with different personalities. And I believe one of them had made the decision even after hearing this advice that they were gonna run with me for like 30 miles.

Finn (01:26:07.618)
Hmm.

k morgan (01:26:08.594)
And just them overriding what I wanted and what my crew had told them that I want kind of stressed me out and, uh, yeah, so eventually it was a bit of an uncomfortable thing, but I had to have the other runner step in with me. So it's like, I'm not really like a famous ultra runner either. You know, I mean, I know Scott Juric ran half of it with people and, uh, Carl Meltzer's, I guess is a pretty famous ultra runner, but decided he just wanted to run by himself.

I don't know. I think the balance is good. And if having a pacer out there is going to enhance you, uh, then I think it's good having paces, but I don't really have the answer to that because I only had, like I say, uh, 10% of the time I ran with people, but I mean, it wasn't a bit, the only thing about being by yourself all day is when you see the crew maybe, and you should only really be with them with for a few minutes and that turns into 15 minutes. Yeah. You're, you're burning, you're getting too much non-moving time.

which isn't great for the record.

Finn (01:27:09.422)
This is something that I've talked a lot about with Joey Campanelli, who's a good friend of mine. He's based here in the Salt Lake City area because he's always done self-supported attempts on the AT. And he, I don't know if it was myself or him that made the point or the possible point that maybe one of the disadvantages of a supported attempt versus a self-supported attempt that whether it's the pacers you choose to go with or the crew that you're with that's embedded with you, there is some sort of like...

baseline level of responsibility, I'm sure that you feel for them and you're always thinking about their welfare. Maybe you're thinking about entertaining them to some respect. And that can sort of take you out of your groove. Whereas if you're self-supported, you really do feel in one sense, the benefit of isolation and sort of going out at your own and being only responsible for yourself. And I feel like you kind of illustrated some of the challenges there for sure.

k morgan (01:28:04.83)
Yeah, I definitely, I mean, I guess that's why I enjoyed running by myself. Cause you know, you, you know, for example, when I had someone with me and I was going uphill and I was like jogging and uphill section, um, you know, you can't really talk when you're jogging uphill because you're gonna heart rate's going to go up an extra 10 beats.

Uh, so I always felt compromised when someone was with me, but when I was by myself, I could lock in and focus and just say, okay, I'm going to really. You know, be dialed and jog this entire runnable section. Whereas if I was with someone, I may feel a little bit more like hiking because I'm thinking that that's going to be difficult for that person behind me. You know, um,

I think towards the end of the trail, I did drop a few people because I became less considerate and I just started thinking, you know what, I want to run this section now, but again, it was a decision I had to make in my mind. And if I dropped this person, cause they can't keep the pace, then that that's the nature of the attempt. But if I wasn't with anyone, I wouldn't have had to ask myself that question. And

be in that situation. So then I could have just ran the way I felt. So I think for me being my, by myself, like for 2000 miles did play to my advantage because I wasn't responsible for anyone and the crew. I mean, I didn't even take those guys into consideration, but paces, I wasn't responsible for any paces. So I think that's a, an interesting topic for sure. I think the self-supported guys, uh, I did consider it and I'm not considered. I entertained it in my mind. I wouldn't know where to start.

I'd love to do that though one day, I think.

Finn (01:29:46.23)
It's so cool. I mean, I think it's an interesting debate as to what's more impressive or are they equally impressive? Like, Correll's FKT and your FKT compared to the 45 or 46 days that Joe McConaughey did self-supported. I genuinely think there are pros and cons to both approach. And I think both Joe and Joey were able to limit their off-trail miles to like 19 or 20.

across the entire duration. So they were pretty efficient in and out of places like Hot Springs and Front Royal and, you know, wherever they were going up and down the trail, you know, Hanover, they were pretty efficient on all the parts that you think would really take a lot of time out of the effort. So it's an interesting debate.

k morgan (01:30:16.578)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:30:33.974)
Yeah. I mean, I was interested by hearing, uh, you know, I asked Joe McConaughey was on my podcast when I had it. Um, and I was really interested that he said, I think, actually, I think he said he only went one mile off trail. Um, and that was when he literally had to go hike a mile off trail. I forget. Caratango. I forget. Maybe it was in May. Yeah. And I was so shocked. I thought, wow, that's.

Finn (01:30:49.123)
Wow.

Finn (01:30:55.391)
In Maine, probably Carrotunk, yeah.

k morgan (01:31:00.438)
That's amazing like that. You can do that, that your resupplies were on trail. Um, maybe adding up the small quarter of a mile here, quarter of a mile there. But I think any, at one point it was, so I was impressed by that. Um, I think that's an amazing adventure to have, but equally I really enjoy the, the bond that I got to have with my mother and Iceman, gun section and Iceman. I mean, when I said goodbye to Iceman at the end, I, you know, I just,

I just felt like he was a brother, a father, a crew member, a trail compatriot. You know, I just felt he was everything. It was pretty amazing to form a bond with someone like that.

Finn (01:31:42.474)
Yeah, that's awesome. There's one, I wanna make sure we get this one training question, because I think, again, this is another area where there's so much experimentation. You've certainly done your fair share. From what I recall, in the buildup in 2023, this past spring, you did a full week of training at record pace, at record mileage for a week. But then you've also said in recent interviews that it is important to hit like

every rung on the fitness ladder, you know, don't just do a bunch of aerobic mileage, get workouts in. Given that you've, you know, experimented at sort of both poles, you've done traditional stuff, what do you think works in this scenario for these long trail preparation efforts?

k morgan (01:32:29.514)
Yeah, I think if you're, so we're talking about not missing rungs on the fitness ladder, meaning I meant particularly in that case, so don't miss out the speed aspect, if you're doing so much endurance that you can't go to a running track and do 10 times 400 meter repeats because your body's so tired from the endurance. I think that's not good. You know, uh, don't worry. You're going to get tired on the 80 that will come, but I don't think you need to enter that kind of fatigue.

in training. Um, and then in terms of actually doing the full week, um, and record distance, uh, that was last year. And Warren Doyle accrued me for that with Iceman. Um, that just, for me, I mean, it just, what it did was it answered question to Iceman that yes, I can do it. It answered a question to me that I can do it, I guess. And I think maybe Warren already believed I could do it and he just wanted me to show myself.

You know, and it gave me a huge mental, um, strength and self-confidence going in. But having doing that six weeks before I started the attempt last year, I believe was bad timing. I know Carl Meltzer did it a year before he did his attempt. So going in next year now with all this knowledge, I want to, yeah, I mean, I'm in a perfect situation now to get the training right, draw off my self belief. And

Finn (01:33:37.833)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:33:57.33)
I shouldn't really make any mistakes. And I think the right approach would be, be able to go to a track on a weekly basis and throw down 10 times 400 meters and not feel, Oh, my lung runs are too long that I can't stride out anymore. I think that's not probably a good place to be.

Finn (01:34:12.96)
Yeah.

Finn (01:34:16.606)
I know that we're coming up on the previous. Are you okay if we go a little bit longer? Because I have a bunch of questions around logistics and then I want to talk about the future as well. Awesome, awesome. Enjoying this conversation. I'm really curious if you're willing to talk about it, what it takes to finance these long trail FKT attempts, especially because it seems like so much goes into it. Like I once heard Carl Meltzer say that I think his 2016 attempt cost him over 100 grand, which

k morgan (01:34:23.87)
Yeah, go for it Finn. That's cool. Yeah.

Finn (01:34:45.15)
I mean, even in today's dollars, that seems out on the extreme of expensive, but what is your experience been like? And what does it take in that regard, just to even get to the start line financially and making this whole thing work with crew and stuff?

k morgan (01:35:01.258)
Yeah. So when Melzer went back, uh, he said, and I heard this from someone, so I didn't hear this from his mouth, but he was only going to go back for a third attempt if, you know, if it was financed, um, and Red Bull financed it. So he was able to, uh, you know, do the full approach, which meant driving the trail, um, making notes.

driving the full trail, visiting all the crew points, doing all the study, getting everything right. And I guess after all that, it'll come to a hundred grand or whatever, and also paying the crew money. So yeah, I guess that's one extreme, which I haven't experienced because I don't have like that kind of sponsor. I don't have these kinds of financial sponsors. I do get product support off some companies.

Finn (01:35:47.724)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:35:57.082)
My experience has been struggle, you know, from, uh, 2019, right the way through to this year. And I mean, I've got a little bit of, uh, finance from go fund me that I've created. Um, you know, I mean, I guess you're asking, what does it cost? It depends for me, the costs have always been involved in one, a rental car, you know, for a week before the.

a predicted time it will, it will take you and a week after. And that's been, you know, like, I think in dollars, like $9,000 or something, you know, just for the rental car, because then you have to obviously take out full insurance and, uh, and then you've got to pay the gas. Um, then you've got to buy foods, you know, I mean, there's Iceman.

Finn (01:36:38.922)
Wow.

k morgan (01:36:52.982)
had some costs, which I covered, but you know, I didn't have to imagine if you have to hire two rental cars or pay, you know, he supplied his vehicle and I just paid for the wear and tear of it and the tires, which wasn't too much, but then you've got the flights, you know, because I don't live in the U S um, I mean, you know, like I said earlier about trials, I just started up a go fund me and I'm starting early this year because last year I didn't actually get the funding until

I, a few weeks before I started the record attempt and that creates stress and it takes away from the time and focus you can put in your training. Cause you're constantly trying to chase after the funds to make this happen. And so this year I started a GoFundMe earlier and I think one of my first comments was 20,000 sterling or whatever. Uh, yeah, my GoFundMe is in you British pounds, 20,000 pounds.

Finn (01:37:46.727)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:37:49.514)
Isn't that a lot of money for a record attempt? Um, question mark, you know, so already people are questioning and, you know, like you said, you heard Carl Meltzer's cost a hundred thousand. So I mean, I'm budgeting and, um, there's the car, there's the fuel for the car. Um, there's the, uh, food for the myself, the crew, and, and then there's like additional costs, like. Um,

which you don't even think about. Um, I mean, I'm trying to think of some permits, uh, you know, sometimes there's some accommodation before accommodation afterwards, and it does. Easily take, you know, I mean, whatever 20,000 pounds is, and that's kind of budgeting, so I think the big expenses for me are the rental car, if I could find a way to get away from the rental car, I'd save a bunch of money, you know? Um, so.

Finn (01:38:45.229)
Hmm.

k morgan (01:38:47.422)
Yeah, I guess I just, and then to make it as cheap as possible, like Hoka gave me the shoes, Lekki gave me the poles, Garmin gave me a watch. Um, there's some, like a company called Do Not Age put in some financial, uh, a little bit of financial money. So I'm trying to draw little bits and pieces from everywhere to kind of make it happen. Uh, so these things are not cheap. And then year after year, and I guess.

Finn (01:38:56.583)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:39:16.646)
Wanting to go back next year, raising the funds is one of the really daunting things, you know, uh, but I guess it's just all part of it, you know, if you want to do these kinds of stuff.

Finn (01:39:29.95)
There's a lot that you said that was interesting there to me, again, not having had your experience of fundraising for this type of effort, just being sort of like a bystander and onlooker. I would think that at this point in time, like 2023, 2024, brands would be interested in putting money into this. I mean, I have to believe that made to be broken film that Carl did has been viewed...

many tens of thousands of times, if not hundreds of thousands of times and, and maybe made that entire investment into his FKT worth it. You've got this great track record of reliability on the trail. So even if you don't get the record, you're going to make it super entertaining, high level, a really cool maybe even like reality TV like experience for the brands. We're seeing companies like AeroVipe are running I don't know if you've seen this, but they started to

like track these Arizona trail FKTs that Michael McKnight's been doing where they like on a daily basis, check in with his crew and with Michael and provide updates and there's brand sponsorships around that. So maybe at some point in the near future, brands come around to the fact that in addition to sponsoring formal races and athletes doing that stuff, there is this really interesting entertainment and inspiration component to

like following the slow drip of a long trail effort. And I really do hope that there's advances early on in terms of support for you. Cause I think that what you're doing is super cool. And I would love to see like a really sophisticated broadcasting of it from start to finish. Cause I know I'm not the only person that would love to kind of stay in tune and watch it evolve.

k morgan (01:41:13.59)
You know, uh, I drew great inspiration from seeing Joe McConaughey. I think it was the Arizona trail and pilot field is the Instagram name of his friend who made the film. And there was a daily 10 minute YouTube video that came out. And I think I forget what the guy's name is from the pilot field, um, Instagram page, but I just, uh, I reached out and I just said, listen, I really enjoy this every day. I'm watching on YouTube to see this.

Finn (01:41:22.136)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:41:43.504)
come out and I think that's definitely where it's at. Cause when you do like a multi thousand mile trail, you're not talking about entertainment, you know, a marathon's great. You know, you watch it for two hours. You're talking about like 40 something days of watching someone grind, you know, and, and come through, break down, break through whatever, cry, laugh. I mean, go through all the human emotions and yeah, I mean, I,

I feel a bit upset sometimes that my only documentation of last year's second fastest time in the world and this year's southbound world record that all I've got is a few Instagram photos and Facebook photos. I mean, Carol got it right this time. He didn't have a video for the Appalachian trial of the PCT he did before, but I think it was backcountry.com or I don't know who it was, but it says at the start of his video this year, and I think it's called pacing.

the PCT, um, there's actually a documentary out on YouTube. So yeah, I actually, I, I was friends. I am friends with a co-producer of made to be broken by Red Bull. And at one point that was Red Bull's most viewed, uh, documentary. So yeah, I'm sure they got their, um, money back. Hey man, I've been struggling. I feel like I'm uphill battle with this, uh, trying to find someone to believe in me, uh, yeah, maybe after two years of.

Finn (01:42:43.988)
Yep.

Finn (01:43:08.197)
Ha ha.

k morgan (01:43:13.046)
of doing what I've done. Someone would like to come on board and share. I'd love to share what I'm doing with people. I really would.

Finn (01:43:19.898)
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, just add further social proof to what you're doing. You know, I've been involved in a couple live streams again with that company, Aerovipa, running and did one for the Bandera 100K and another for the Black Canyon 100K. And at the time, both of those were golden ticket races to Western states. So they had a lot of fanfare to them and they got a decent amount of viewers. And I'm going to have to be fact checked here. But then three months later.

we did the live stream for a race called the Cocodona 250, which is this, you know, really stretched out multi-day, three, four day live stream experience. And anecdotally, the live chat was even more invested and animated for and tuning in. And the broadcast numbers were, if I remember correctly, about equal. And I remember thinking about that week after the fact and thinking like, I really do think there is a dedicated,

engaged, passionate audience for these longer trail things, maybe even more so because there's more time to build out storylines. People are fascinated by the trials and tribulations of what you're going through. And there's just more room for storytelling. So I'm with you, man. We'll make sure to link to all of your stuff in the show notes. And maybe there are some breakthroughs in terms of...

how it can be documented, but I think independently, you've already done a great job, you know, putting it all on Strava and putting the tracking in your website, you know, you've more than done your part to show what's going on out there.

k morgan (01:44:53.846)
Yeah, thanks Finn. I appreciate that man. And obviously you've looked into it. So yeah, it's nice to be appreciated. Thanks.

Finn (01:45:05.21)
I mean, there's so much more we could talk about. I do think at this point, it's probably good to close up with the future of the trail for you. I recall heading into this year, at that time, you said it would be your last attempt, the last dance, and you got to tie up some loose ends. But then I read that trail runner Matt Hart article, and I think you were quoted saying that you were already planning 2024 in the last 300 miles of that attempt.

And then you just made an IG post yesterday saying it's like, it's going to be all systems go. We're putting up a go fund me, uh, talk about the decision to do 2024. Talk about the idea also of like letting go versus staying put and wanting to continue improving yourself in this arena.

k morgan (01:45:50.75)
Yeah. I mean, so last year and this year I feel have contributed to my experience, which puts me in a really great position for next year. And, uh, this year, you know, um, people congratulate me and stuff, but the truth is, you know, I didn't set out to achieve what I wanted to. My B goal was if I fall off record pace and I'm going southbound to be fair to myself and the crew.

That will give me the motivation to carry on and go for that southbound record, which is what I did in the end. And I got that, but so now going back next year, I want to go northbound because, um, I really believe I can do it. And something inside of me is just pulling me back and having the experience last year and this year and all the mistakes I made and learning.

that now I don't break under pressure and, um, how to cope with, you know, extreme weather, you know, logistically with warm clothes and carrying the right equipment instead of just, you know, Andrew Thompson, um, it got it after his third try, but in his second attempt, he had to call it cause he was at top of Mount Washington with cold in cold weather. And I was thinking, you know, if he had a backpack full of warm weather clothes, he could have continued on.

So, I mean, that actually happened to me this year. I had a hundred mile an hour winds. I had two pairs of trousers, three pairs of trousers on. It was freezing cold. I had all my clothes on and I made it over Mount Washington because I had the right clothes. So wanting to go back next year is, is also the other thing is like, I've got the southbound record, if I can get, if I can get the northbound record, you know, to, to just, you know, it comes down to one thing I believed I can do it.

Finn (01:47:15.532)
Yeah.

k morgan (01:47:44.638)
and I still believe I can and I haven't achieved it yet. And I wanna go out there and prove to myself, not anybody else, but I wanna prove to myself that I chose one thing in life to be good at and I got really good at it and I didn't just become good, I excelled. So I think for me, it's just about proving to myself I can do it and I wanna give it another chance. So that's what it's about, it's quite simple.

Finn (01:48:08.362)
I love that sentiment and I love just identifying, from a mastery standpoint, from an excellent standpoint, what's worth pursuing and sticking with over the long haul. And again, I love that the AT you've chosen to be your masterpiece in life. I think it's a really noble thing to go after. One thing I wanna ask about, just like with this northbound attempt last year, again, because you talked about sort of the intimidation factor.

Karel is a great athlete. How stout is his record, do you believe? You're really brushing up against it, but put perspective around what he did and how much time you believe can be shaved off. Are we talking sub 40 days, just beating it by a few hours? What do you think is possible on this trail in the current generation of athletes?

k morgan (01:49:01.198)
So when Carroll set the record northbound in 2018, previous to him, the record had been, each athlete had taken a few hours off the record. And when Carroll went and did it, he took four days off the record because he didn't look at the person who went before him and think what...

How, how much can I beat this person by? He looked within and said, what can I do myself? You know, what is my own limitations? So in terms of Carol's limits on the Appalachian trail, um, I mean, if we, we'll have to see if he goes back a second time. I don't know if he's interested or, or if he, or not, but he obviously didn't.

race against Joe McConaughey on the trail. He raced against his own self belief and potential and took four days off. I know Joe's is a self-supported, so I guess we should speak about the supported, which was Carl Meltzer's. You know, he took four days off Carl Meltzer's record. And so he was racing against his own limitations, I guess. Can he push his own limitations further?

Uh, with the knowledge and experience he has also his age. I think he could. Yeah. Could it go under 40 days? I think it can go under 40 days. Um, can I do that? I mean, what I want to do is I want to set a record on the Appalachian Trail. And I'm happy to do it by 10 minutes. Um, I'm happy to do it by 10 hours. So I'm not going to be greedy.

You know, I just want to set a record on the 80 and if it means looking to what Carol could do and thinking, can I beat Carol rather than thinking what is my own potential and having that as my own limitation, that might be a, maybe a weak approach, but at the same time, I know it's super tough because I've tried it before, so twice, so beating, beating the current record for me would be, um,

Finn (01:51:06.37)
Hahaha.

k morgan (01:51:13.01)
Like I said, it would be proving to myself that I chose one thing in life to be the master of, and I achieved it, and I'd be content with that.

Finn (01:51:21.99)
I want to reemphasize what you said there about, you know, focusing on, on racing your own limitations and just how freeing that can be and how much that opens up you to your true potential. And, um, yeah, I've always found it fast. And like, if you look through this record book, I know you've done it way more than I ever have, but every generation of people that have taken a crack at this trail in one way or another have kind of seemingly been constrained by

what that era deemed possible. Like it wasn't long ago that, you know, sub 60 self-supported was this, you know, big barrier kind of like sub four minute mile was. And on the supported scene, you know, it was like sub 50. And now we're starting to brush up against 40 days. And it's like, where is the line? You know, like, I just think it's interesting. And maybe, you know, five years from now, we're talking about like 37 days or something wild like that. I don't know, I'm just throwing a number out there, but that's why I love.

this emphasis on just like looking within yourself and, and using that as the barometer as opposed to like, you know, focusing on what someone did in 2019 or 2012 or whatever.

k morgan (01:52:30.53)
I guess that's the thing, isn't it? Like going for the record next year, because I'm gonna go north, I'll know exactly each day where Carol finished. So on day 10, I'll know Carol did X miles and I'll know where I'll be, how far ahead, you know, if everything is going to plan, how far ahead I'll be with him. And then I guess that's the gamble, isn't it? It's like, how much can I push myself and not sabotage?

my success or the success of the attempt. It's finding that, you know, how close can I go to the edge without falling off? You know, and it takes a certain kind of individual or it takes a certain kind of mastery of the mind to be able to take yourself to that breaking, close to breaking point. So it...

It's scary and exciting at the same time. And I guess that's what a pioneer is. A pioneer is the person who takes the human limits to a point that no other human on earth has taken or, you know, who attempts the Appalachian Trail. Am I willing to try to do that yet? Can I do it? I don't know. We'll see. It's scary and it's exciting.

Finn (01:53:51.082)
Christian, I want to thank you so much for this conversation. It's readily apparent that not only are you a subject matter expert on the AT, but you couple that with passion and excitement, which I think will prove to be infectious to this viewership and listenership. So thank you so much for dropping all the knowledge. You mentioned the GoFundMe. We will make sure to link to that in the show notes as well as your coaching and social media and, you know, we're avidly going to be following you next summer when you take another crack at this thing.

I always like to give the guest the last word. Is there anything else that you want to leave the audience with? Any final thoughts, any inspiration, any calls to action before we go?

k morgan (01:54:33.654)
I just want to say, just get outside or do something in your life that makes you happy every single day, even if it's 10 minutes right now for me, what is making me happy is swimming in the ocean in cold conditions here in Spain, um, for 10 minutes a day. And that is my favorite 10 minutes of the day. And whatever your thing is, whatever it is.

You know, just put down that little bit of discipline it takes, go through that little bit of hardship and just find maybe not what makes you happy is the right word, I think what makes you satisfied because ultimately, um, comfort is a waste of potential and just 10 minutes of discomfort may prove to be hugely satisfying. So please get out there and, uh, just find your own limits, people find what makes you feel uncomfortable.

For me, it's swimming right now, but it's very, very satisfying.