Jennifer Pharr Davis | Appalachian Trail Reflections, State of FKTs, Pursuits of Endurance

Finn (00:00.962)
Jennifer Farr Davis, it is an honor to have you on the Singletrack Podcast. How are you doing today?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (00:06.817)
Um, great. Thanks for having me.

Finn (00:09.25)
So it's interesting timing. I'm reading this book right now. It's called The Cost of These Dreams. And it's all about these super successful athletes. So, you know, the Tiger Woods is of the world, the Michael Jordans of the world. And the author makes a really interesting point that the traits and the mindsets that often got these athletes to the tops of their crafts or their sports, they're also the same ones that kind of make them ill-suited to either.

stay there or accept a transition to another stage of life. And as I was reading that, I was like, this is interesting because I've, I thought about you and I've read all your books and I've listened to a lot of your interviews and you seem to be an outlier in that you had no problem leaving this like FKT part of your life behind. You kind of like had a goal, you succeeded and you were satisfied. So I'm curious, like when you look back at that era again, was that transition sort of as easy as you've commented?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:06.824)
Well, I think I have an advantage in that I'm a woman. And you know, you mentioned, okay, Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan or whoever it was. And probably, hopefully there were female athletes in that book as well. But I think I've been very goal oriented for most of my life. But one thing I always hoped for and wanted was to have children. And...

So when I reached sort of the pinnacle of completing long trails or FKTs or adventuring or whatever it was, I knew the thing I wanted more than that was to be a mom. And when you have children, it is the most humbling experience ever. And I think it honestly like sucked a lot of the discipline and drive that I had out of my body. And so...

You know, I went through a huge physical transformation, which really helped me, I think, emotionally, mentally, even like hormonally, transition to a different phase. And it was a transition that I wanted and that as much as you can, we planned for. And so I feel like that was very much part of the journey for me and very like holistic, whereas a lot of people, they stop or they retire or they want to transition, but they're this.

the same, you know, like mentally and emotionally and expectations and identity, whereas I just kind of like warped into this whole new being of caregiving. And, you know, my body felt different, my mind felt different. You're kind of hardwired once you become a mom, like, you know, hormones go crazy, your priorities shift. So...

Yeah, again, I think for me that allowed me to transition more easily, not to say that becoming an apparent in any way, shape or form is an easy process, but it helped me not look back.

Finn (03:07.186)
It's interesting because again, looking at these athletes and maybe it has something to do with their particular sports or all sorts of, you know, other ties that are kind of hinging on their career. These successes that they have these athletes, it ends up feeling or acting more like an opiate than it does, you know, this final like peace of mind type moment. Like in your case, you know, with your first FKT and the AT, you know, it was somewhere in the neighborhood of, you know, 57 days. And then after that, I think it was 46 days. So

You shaved 10 or 11 days off. Was there any, was there any wonder in your mind? Like if I go back again, am I, am I taking, you know, not just hours, but even more days off this thing? Like, did you want to get on that treadmill at all?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (03:49.788)
No, I felt really maxed out when I did the trail in 46 days. I felt like, and there was part of the reason I wanted to go back is because when I finished the trail in 57 days, there was gas in the tank. I knew I hadn't optimized. I knew I had limited myself because I told myself going into that endeavor that I was going after the women's record. And then I also just assumed the women's record would be behind the men's mark. And so

You know, I really put up some mental and physical barriers for me that prevented me from going all out with that women's fastest known time or trail record. And so that was the motivation to go out and say, like, let's throw away these gender barriers, stereotypes. Let's just go wild. Like, let's just go all out. And also, again, this ties back to like,

I'm hitting my late 20s, I'm married, I wanna be a mama, I've been an athlete my whole life, and this feels like kind of the capstone moment to say like, okay, maybe it's successful, I probably like burn out and fail, but I have loved sports and endurance and trails for a long time, I've given it a lot, it's given me more, I just wanna like go all out and see where I get and what that looks like before going to a new season of life. So.

When I got to the end, I was really, really content and ready to hike down that mountain and go a different pace. But like small caveat, when our record finally got broken years later, it was only by three hours. And at that point I was like, well, damn it. Like I could, I mean, like, I was, it was like, I was at a hundred percent, but I could have found three hours, you know? And I thought I was totally zen about like the record falling and someone else breaking up. But I kinda.

looking back, I wish they had broke it good. So I didn't have to rethink like every pee break or whatever it was, you know, on the trail.

Finn (05:47.274)
Well, okay, that reminds me and I actually have the quote written down here because I laughed when I read it, but you say quote, in a sport without trophies, one of the best rewards is sitting back and watching other people suffer as they try to surpass your mark. And I thought that was an awesome quote. Did you have fun in those like ensuing years, you know, watching the Carl Meltzer's and the Scott Jurek's and the Joe McConaughey's and the Heather Anderson's, you know, try to compete with you?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (06:15.116)
Well, it's funny, like, I don't tune into it much anymore. And my husband's always, like, really surprised about that. But I don't know. I do, I think it's fun. Like, I love Heather Anderson and we're good friends. And I love watching her.

keeping up with her FKTs, her records, her struggle. And it is fun and there's also some like connection or empathy into that. And there's really wanting to like cheer her on to do well. I think, you know, FKTs, we didn't even call them FKTs when I was going after my trail records. Like that wasn't an acronym anyone knew about or anyone used. And so I think all that to say,

Finn (06:59.009)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (07:04.116)
The sport, if you want to call it a sport, has changed so much. And I think one reason I don't tune in as much is I don't always like the direction it's headed. Um, it's become a lot more publicized. Um, there, there is some tension between, um, I think how trail runners approach it sometimes versus like the through hiker experience, which those, you know, the through hiker.

six months on the trail, like those were my roots. And I love that community. And they're just very like simplistic. And even if you're gonna be competitive, it feels like, okay, you really wanna be competitive like inwardly or with yourself and you wanna respect the environment you're in. And so, I don't know, I don't always love like the formal direction that the sport is going and the sense that it's lost to me some of what made it.

Finn (07:31.566)
Mm.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (08:00.396)
pure and special. And that also, I think, is just like getting old and opinionated and stubborn, all those things.

Finn (08:11.958)
Well, and this is interesting in the direction that you currently see it going. What do you think is either threatened or lost in that process that either we would, it'd be really difficult to gain back or maybe we lose permanently from like a cultural standpoint.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (08:29.744)
Um, well, my foundation for trail records was I always, um, through hike the trail before going for a record on it. So I think knowing where you are in the community there and the place and having an understanding of history and flora and fauna, um, and having a deep love for it. Like establishing a relationship with it before like going all out. Um, I just compare it to like, if you go to Europe.

You know, you want to be a visitor. You want to be respectful. You want to know where you're at. You want to use their currency. You want to try, even if you butcher it, to speak some of the language. And you don't want to be a tourist who's just there to take advantage of that place and take some selfies and go home. Right? So it's like on the trail, it's like, you want to be a visitor and you want to try to understand where you are and give back in some way and not just be the tourist who's like...

Finn (09:16.246)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (09:26.64)
I need to use this trail to further my experience. I'm gonna take some selfies and then I'm gonna peace out and never really care about the environment that provided for me in this way. So, I mean, I think that's probably the best comparison I can give.

Finn (09:43.374)
It's amazing to me even outside the specific FKT subculture, just looking at the AT thru-hiking culture in general. I thru-hiked back in 2014 and when I thru-hiked in 2014, I didn't even have a smartphone. Internet connection was super sparse. I've met a few people, even people in my family who've thru-hiked in the last one to two years and they're talking about, you know, walking into these campsites, lean-to areas and people are now able to watch Netflix at the end of the day on their phones.

uh, instead of having to walk into town, you know, go to the gear shop in Franklin, Tennessee, or, you know, hike into Monson main, they can Amazon prime stuff to the trailhead. It blows my mind. This is like, even just like in my 10, I mean, for you, it's been longer for me. It's been nine or 10 years. It's changed dramatically, like technology.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (10:31.892)
Yes, yeah, that's people always ask, okay, I've, you know, had this long trail relationship for 20 years, which changed the most. It's hands down technology has changed the outdoor experience more than anything else. And at a really accelerated rate. So it's interesting, because even my stories, I feel like my experience comes across a little bit as a dinosaur sometimes, you know, like when we were doing our trail records, my husband was using

like gazetteers, like paper maps to find trailheads. We didn't have a smartphone, you know, people are like, did you carry a GPS tracker? I'm like, we didn't even have a smartphone. Like we didn't have GPS, we were using physical maps. So, in that sense it's changed a lot. And I do try, I mean, I think, you know, technology adds a lot of benefits to the trail experience. And that, you know, for example,

trail now, I feel like I can stay better connected to my kids and my family. And I love identifying, you know, different unknown plants on the trail. And so apps are great, having the backup flashlight, all those safety tools that our phone gives us. It's great. But I think learning how to navigate without it, literally and figuratively is also a skill that makes you a better

Jennifer Pharr Davis (12:00.489)
it makes you a better hiker, it makes you a better trail runner, it makes you someone who can move through the world better.

Finn (12:08.95)
just know that even when I was on the trail, there was still like there were a lot of people that were trying to, I guess the phrase is like emotionally regulate your experience out there. Like they would say there's a certain way to hike the trail. Like, you know, you want to do 10 or 10 to 15 miles a day and you want to have this very discreet, you know, morning campsite experience, evening campsite experience, you know, no yellow blazing stuff like that. I wonder if we're going to see some sort of imposition there on the technology front. Like there's a way to do it where it's like you're disconnected from

from Wi-Fi and stuff like that. And I don't know, I'm just curious to seeing if these standards of what constitutes a proper through height change in the event of like the last five to 10 years of more connectivity to the rest of society.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (12:51.964)
I think we're almost past it because when I started in 2005, it was a time where maybe half the thru-hikers carried a cell phone. And when I say a cell phone, I mean a brick Nokia that had zero service. And it was, that was talked about a lot. Like it was a wilderness ethics debate on whether carrying a huge cell phone in your pack that never had service ruined the experience.

And now to say something like that, people would be like, you're insane, you have to have your cell phone and your spot or your garment. And these are responsible things to take with you as opposed to do they degrade the wilderness experience. So, yeah, it's really interesting. And I was, you know, owned and operated a commercial outfitter and guide service for 15 years.

Finn (13:21.463)
Mm.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (13:46.576)
And so then even on the risk management or liability side, like personally, I believe so strongly that it can be incredibly valuable to head into the woods without any technology. And yet, you know, every trip we send out, we were sending the GPS and the guides had to have fully charged cell phones and backup batteries and all those things. So yeah, it's definitely a tension.

to be managed. But it's fun to play around with too. Like I think in this age where we're so connected to our technology, it's just, it's fun to say, okay, my goal for this, you know, 20 mile run, my goal for this weekend backpacking trip is I'll take it as a safety, you know, backup, but I'm not gonna turn on my phone unless I have to for safety or whatever it is. So it's a fun kind of relationship, I think, to play around with when you're on trail too.

Finn (14:41.962)
Really quickly, I just want to close the book on what we were discussing earlier, like how you were sort of translating your FKT experience to the rest of your life. And I think, and I just find it fascinating because I think you gave one of the most emotionally healthy answers we've ever heard on this podcast for, you know, a professional athlete and with you saying like the lessons from my FKT were in part preparing me for what I've always wanted to do, which is to have this family and be a, you know, a great partner. Um,

a great mother to my kids, et cetera. Do you think for all the other athletes out there that have either been in your position or have seen your work and are inspired by it and they've pursued a similar trajectory on the AT, do you think it is important to, uh, try to find value in translating that stuff outside of the FKT world or is it okay to be, be totally absorbed in it? And you know, the FKT stuff, the Appalachian Trail stuff just like becomes your life, you know, in perpetuity.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (15:40.204)
I don't know, I'm not here to judge. And I think different people have different personalities and different needs. And I see people who have a real hard time leaving the world of endurance or trying to push their limits or trying to always improve. And...

there is this sense of looking at those individuals or those examples and being like, is that really selfish? Is that self-serving? But everyone I know who does that and lives that life has inspired so many people and continues to inspire so many people. And it's really, I think the point of going and setting records is not to inspire other people to go and set records. But I do think we use so little of our physical capacity and

you know, work ethic and endurance and physicality is something that we're losing in our very, very sedentary screen-filled culture. So for people to just go and remind us and prove to themselves and others over and over and over again, that our bodies are like awesome and just capable of amazing things. And even if you're not trying to like go.

30 or 50 or 100 miles, like do a 5k. You know, like just stretch, touch your toes, use this amazing vehicle that we exist in. So I think there's a lot of value to the people who just keep pushing limits. But I think for people who are looking to transition out of that, like finding their give back, like that is the next phase, like falling in love, having the experience and then finding the give back. And like, it can be through.

Obviously like parenting, caregiving, conservation, coaching, like advocating for the environment, whatever it is, like when you have these unique experiences and you're part of this community and you start to understand this environment. Again, in a culture that's becoming more detached from like nature and, and more politically polarized, but you're, you know, you're part of this community. That's, that's diverse and outdoors. Finding whatever like lights you out, lights you up about that.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (17:46.724)
ecosystem and then trying to like protect, promote, give back. That to me always personally feels even more valuable than whatever experience you've had. And it feels like the natural kind of next step. And that's really where you want to apply. Oh, I learned that, you know, I learned goal setting and resilience and how to be comfortable being uncomfortable and how to work with other people and how to keep going when the odds are totally against me. And

Finn (17:46.988)
Mm.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (18:16.276)
Like that's really what you want to apply to creating change or good in the world and caring, right? Caring for land, caring for people. So if people are like struggling, what do I do with my hands? What do I do next? I would just encourage them, look for your give back.

Finn (18:30.414)
Finding the give back is a great phrase. I like that. And I wanna talk about what you're doing in this current phase of your life later in the conversation. But you also said something interesting earlier that on that first Appalachian Trail FKT, even before the hike started, you set barriers around what you thought was possible, what you were gonna do, et cetera. So go into detail about those barriers and maybe why you didn't get the best out of yourself in that particular hike that you could have.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (18:57.364)
Okay, so I in 2008 went after the women's FKT on the Appalachian Trail. Again, FKT didn't exist. So trail record, whatever you want to call it. And women just weren't in that world. They just really were not. There was one woman named Sue Johnson who had done some stuff on the long trail. And she was certainly an example and inspiration for me. But I had...

And I'll say Jenny Jardine, who was married to Ray Jardine, who was a lightweight backpacking guru. They hike the trail very quickly and just under 100 days, but they weren't trying for a trail record. They weren't trying for an FKT. So I think it was a lot of my background. I grew up playing sports. I had older brothers. I played sports in college. And I knew through that experience, no matter how much I trained or practiced, guys were just typically faster.

Finn (19:24.75)
Chardines, yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (19:51.644)
and stronger. And I'm not here to argue that on a short term basis. I think guys have physiological advantages when it comes to speed and strength. So going into the women's record, I knew the men's mark was at 47 days and then just naturally lowered the bar. And somehow because there weren't many comparisons, there weren't many examples, I just...

came up in my brain with this idea that a good women's record would be about 10 days behind the men. So that's exactly what I did. Finished it 57 days and the entire time I did exactly what my mind told me I should do. And I never gave my body the chance to kind of show me what it was capable of. And the thing about a long trail is you have a lot of time to think, and you have a lot of time to process. And so along this journey,

even though I never unleashed even though I never went all out because I think I was still I just didn't know what it was like I was new to the sport. This was my first you know, 2000 mile plus record attempt like I didn't I didn't know how much to give and how much to hold back but I knew along the way that at no point did someone asked me to sprint at no point you know, did I need to bench press like all the qualities that make a really

fantastic endurance athlete at over a hundred or two hundred or five hundred miles. Like it's just the ugly crawl. Like it's dealing with chronic pain. It's staying motivated. It's staying disciplined. It's having a good strategy. It's being able to take care of dietary needs and hygiene along the way. It's having a great team, a great support crew. So I got to the end and instead of seeing myself at a disadvantage for being a woman, I started to think like, man.

women are really good at chronic pain. Like women are really good at holding onto their body weight. Like women are designed to carry the additional weight of 20 or 30 pounds on their body as a pack or a child. Like it just really shifted. And so by the time I got to the end, I knew I had limited myself and I knew I had something more to give. And I didn't believe in this gender distinction or difference at distances of...

Jennifer Pharr Davis (22:15.244)
2000 plus miles anymore.

Finn (22:18.006)
I think there, well, there's a lot of great lessons in here. The one that comes to mind for me is how and when you decide between sort of like the internal monologue or guidance versus the external monologue or guidance in the world. Like, was there any point in the preparation for this first hike where you did see those numbers and you did see the precedence or lack thereof and say to yourself, okay, this is what all of the data, this is what all of the people in the community are saying is...

is possible and what I should aim for, but I do, there is like this inkling inside me that I'm actually built for way more, or did it require that second hike to figure that out?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (22:56.296)
Yeah, I mean, when I started, when I started going for the women's record, and that was the goal, I felt confident, I had support, I had no inkling in my mind of maybe I could compete with the guys. None of that was there. And you never want to say a trail record is easy, but it was not a super difficult.

Finn (23:24.317)
Thank you.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (23:26.068)
Um, like I had, you know, my husband and I, and we were kind of newlyweds at the time, we were just days at like five o'clock, we'd be like, oh, great, we logged, you know, 35, like, let's go grab a hotel, let's get a bite to eat, like just things that, um, going after the overall record, it was all in the entire time. So, um, getting to the end of the women's record, it took that journey. Like it took

trying for that mark and building gradually and saying like, okay, I think, you know, I've got more, I can do more. But by the end of that trail, you know, and I didn't think I would ever go back and do it when I finished. I thought that was a great gift. I got to do it again. I was able to do something physically that was unique. But then it ate at me. Then it was like.

Finn (24:08.673)
Mm.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (24:18.848)
call and voice and regret and if I don't go back, I'll always wonder and what can I do and are women really necessarily always going to be behind the guys like it just filled my dreams at night daydreaming when I was on the trail. I always thought about it. I could not shake it. So that's what three years later drove me back to try for the overall record and I went in thinking I would probably fail. But maybe I could be successful. But it's so hard. So hard when you're pushing that much. And so

I knew I'd probably look bad.

Finn (24:51.402)
I guess it makes me wonder, and again, now that you've had even more success on the second AT thru-hike, but just generally with your approach to life, did the experience between the first and the second thru-hike make you this forever skeptic of standards and barriers knowing that maybe there could be more to it and the mind is often a huge limiter in those circumstances and if you just reframe it or think about it in a different context.

All it really is this, you know.

Finn (25:26.219)
it really does come down to the individual. Like did it make you feel empowered in other areas of life when you're going up against difficult challenges?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (25:33.516)
Well, I think there's a third component because I think, you know, overcoming mental barriers or limitations is part of it, which an individual can do. Really kind of trying to defy cultural norms is a big part of it, which an individual can do. But I think the way that the stars really align for me is I had the right support.

And so I think like as an individual, when you really want to be a trailblazer, or do something different, or do something new, or something that's never been done before, there's a lot that you can do on your own. But I had, just in this really kind of serendipitous or divine way, I had these former FKT holders, trail record holders, mentors who...

Finn (25:56.652)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (26:21.288)
really coached me and poured into me and gave me a lot of their time and a lot of their wisdom and a lot of their experience. And then it just so happened that I married this like awesome human, but his skill set translates really well to be a support crew. You know, he's logistically minded, he's competitive, he's encouraging, he's nurturing.

And so I had the right crew person. And then I had Warren Doyle who had set a trail record on that. The Appalachian trail and David Horton, who had set a trail record on the Appalachian trail, once coming from the hiking background, once coming from the trail running background. And they, um, just gave me a lot of, um, mentorship and advice. So that's what, that's what I think now when I'm like, Ooh, I want to do something big, like culturally or professionally or individually it's okay. Like, do I have the right mindset?

you know, what cultural barriers are gonna exist, but also do I have the team? Sorry. Do I have the team, do I have the support to do have the wisdom along with like my energy and my mindset and my work ethic? Do I have the wisdom to help get me to that next place? So I think that's a big part of it too.

Finn (27:24.302)
Hehehe

Finn (27:41.494)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but just from what I read in your books, it seems like your husband Brew is this logistics wizard. He's, he's kind of built for, you know, navigating that whole stretch of the Appalachian trail and getting to checkpoints, road crossings, et cetera, really well and preparing you and, you know, getting you in and out of those checkpoints quickly and well-nourished, et cetera. Um, and you had, you know, David Horton and Warren Doyle at points for council. It seemed to me that. For the most part, the, the support.

of the two hikes were somewhat alike. I mean, obviously you and Brun knew more the second time, but the style seemed similar. And when I looked at other, you know, FKT attempts in that like middle 2010s era, like you look at Carl Meltzer, for example, I think he said like he had $100,000 to finance that thing and Red Bull had a film crew and all sorts of stuff. Did you have those same opportunities and you just sort of turned them down because you wanted to go your own way or?

Did it really have to be more of a scrappy effort for other reasons?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (28:42.108)
No, it was scrappy. No one gave us a shot. I mean, Karl Meltzer had won enough 100 mile races and established himself as a professional athlete to earn a lot of sponsorship and a lot of support. But I don't know that makes it easier, quite frankly. Like I don't like when people bring a lot of money and sponsorship and huge teams and a lot of publicity to these efforts per se, but I don't know that it's really an advantage.

Finn (28:45.496)
Really?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (29:11.308)
some of its personality base. For me to have a film crew and have 20 people waiting at a trailhead to see me, it would drain the life and the inspiration out of me. I'd be like, this is not, I'm not doing this for performance. I'm not doing this for publicity. This is something that was really, and again, I think maybe we were on Facebook and Brew was uploading posts on Facebook every now and then that was like, this is where we are. This is how we're doing.

But it was just a different age as far as like how we were experiencing and sharing our journey and the expectations around it But we was a school teacher and I had this new like fledgling hiking company and we were just like saving pennies so that we could Take a month in the summer and go try this and do this But you know, I also think that's

one of the parts of our story that I most appreciate and I value, because doing it on your own gives you a lot of freedom. Funding it on your own gives you a lot of freedom. And through hiking, backpacking, trail running, existing in the wilderness should not be expensive. So that's sort of now when I look at FKTs, I like the people who are more, you know.

Even if they're not doing it on a shoestring budget, it seems like there's a pureness or an integrity to their efforts. I feel like some people go into the sport because that's a whole nother level, but there's these sponsorships and athletes feel like they constantly have to perform or produce or do the next thing. And sometimes an FKT feels like a mark of like, oh, this will satisfy, you know.

my sponsorship expectations for the year if I go and if I do this. And again, that's certainly not all bad. It's just, it's just different.

Finn (31:13.214)
I have to imagine that if there was a public opinion poll taken, your style would be greatly appreciated and probably upvoted because there is something romantic and magical about doing it in a more organic way. But I guess one of the questions I'm driving at is given that you already had this strong reputation in the AT from FKT number one, were there sponsors knocking at your door or if and when you reached out, was there receptivity?

to at least have that option if you wanted it, to be more comfortable out there, be more financed out there.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (31:48.204)
Yeah, I mean, I got a little support. I had some from Solomon, which was great. It just nothing like we didn't, you know, there was a little bit of financial support. There was product. We got shoes, we got socks, we got those things, and everything helped. But we were still paying for this out of our own pocket, and it was not a big ticket, FKT. So...

Yeah, there was not a sponsor driving the record, driving the record attempt. It was interesting because after we were successful, a couple of those groups that had helped us, which again, we really appreciated, then they were like, oh, you actually did it, and come be at our booth at OR and come do these things. So there was more excitement afterwards.

Finn (32:33.678)
I'm going to go to bed.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (32:43.816)
But I, you know, I'll also say any financial support that I got for the AT, which again, did not cover the effort or the record. Um, the next year I got pregnant and I had no sponsorship on the table. Like no, you know, no one wanted to renew. Um, so, and, um, when I was pregnant, I backpacked 700 miles during my second and third trimester.

which that's a whole nother, you know, probably podcast episode and, um, and ball of wax, but that is more unique than doing a trail record and, and just as challenging, but it wasn't seen in the same light, I think, from a corporate perspective. Um, but all that same, you know, all that being said, I, um, I feel really grateful for anyone who was a part of our efforts at any capacity, you know, um, and

I would encourage any athlete or any company who's working with sponsors, any of those partnerships, just work with people who you really, really believe in and it feels co-beneficial and they're, as an athlete, not going to push you to do things that are not really your passion. And also as an athlete, like if you don't use it, love it, believe in it, not just for the product, but who the company is, then you probably shouldn't partner with them. So if you're going to have a relationship, just try to make it.

a really, really strong partnership.

Finn (34:15.79)
Do you get the sense that any of this would have been different in 2023? Like have we made strides as a sport on this side of it? Or do you still think that the ball hasn't moved much and there's still a lot of work to be done?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (34:29.084)
No, I think tremendous strides have been made and I'm really grateful for that. I actually struggle personally because a part of me is like a little jealous and I hate that, but I see women doing things now and getting more and better support. And so of course I'm like very, very happy for them. And I think that's the right thing. And also part of me is like, well, they don't realize how it was for me or...

or people who maybe didn't put as much into it as what I put into it and are getting so much more. And it's like, so I don't want to be jealous. That's a little self work that I just am trying to do, but in a positive way, yeah, I think it's, I think it is much better. There's still a long way to go, but as far as like,

more women being on trail, more diversity on trail, and more support for historically underrepresented groups, all that has gotten better, all that is headed in a good direction. And yes, we can get mad and angry and be like, it's not enough, we need more now. And that's good, that's advocating, right? But to see the trajectory over 20 years, I'm like, okay, this is so cool. The way, just where technology is changing the trail a lot and you're like, woo, I don't know. There's, you know.

it's a mixed bag but as far as the trail community and the way that that's changing I feel like it's awesome.

Finn (35:55.554)
So it would have been a couple of years ago, but I was listening to an episode you did on Science of Ultra with Sean Bearden, where it was either you or him that was hypothesizing all the reasons why at a certain distance, certainly at the long distance, trail distance, it could be the case that women are either at the same level as men or even better at men for many of the factors you described earlier in this conversation, which I think.

is true. I think we're finding that a lot of the research is sort of bearing that out in 2023, 2024. But you talk after the second through-hike attempt where you take the overall record. And one of the first responses you get from the community is a lot of people, you know, in the media in these online forums are kind of like androgynizing your accomplishment, or they're trying to make it more masculine than feminine. Why do you think that was the response? Or what was your how are you interpreting that at that time?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (36:49.108)
Oh, I think people, there was a lot of disbelief around a woman setting the overall record. And so I think for people to feel more comfortable with that, you know, they needed to question my sexuality and my gender. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know that I was overly sensitive to it or surprised.

buy it.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (37:22.976)
but it's just an interesting reflection on culture that when a strong woman performs well, we want to make her more masculine, you know? And I do, I have a lot of like,

Finn (37:37.044)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (37:42.768)
emotional mental traits that could be considered stereotypically masculine. Like I had, I mean, I had two older brothers, like I play, you know, I played all these sports. I am competitive. I, I'm pretty thick skinned, you know, I'm not overly sensitive. Um, but, you know, I've just, um, I've always been a woman identified as a woman. I gave birth, you know, a year.

setting the trail record, I had my period on the trail, like, you know, I nursed my babies, all of that. So, yeah, it's just interesting. And again, like even, you know, gender, the whole conversation around gender now is so much different than it was 10 years ago. But I think our culture, the essence of this is our culture really has a problem still. It did 10 years ago, 12 years ago. It still does not with strong women.

doesn't know how to manage them and honor them as fully female and fully strong and resilient.

Finn (38:49.394)
It just, and when I look at FKTs that are set on this trail, if record holders deal with anything after the fact, it'll typically be someone on the FKT site or on a podcast or in the media critiquing maybe the validity of the record. Like maybe there's some anomaly in the data or whatever, and they're really driving down on that. But in your case, you dealt with way more than that. There was all this stuff about gender, about the style of the hike, about media.

It seems like you had to deal with quite a lot in the wake of the, of the FKT that, that most people wouldn't have to deal with, which is why I'm fascinated. And it seemed like you navigated it pretty well, but there was just a lot of, there was like a whole nother through hike of endurance, just waiting through all that after the AT was done. So I just find it fascinating.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (39:36.82)
Well, this has been a good therapy session because I think what I'm finally connecting is like earlier when I said, gosh, I'm kind of like jealous and I don't know what to do with that when the like women of today who are successful or not successful don't face the same criticism or barriers that I had. And I think really, okay, it's not jealousy. It's like, I still have some hurt around that probably and like what I was faced with afterwards. And so when they have it, like I feel that hurt.

of like what I faced afterwards of the criticism or the negativity or the accusations. And it wasn't just around like, you know, my body. I got asked multiple times if I felt guilty for having my husband support me on this or asking him to help me. Or if I if I did damage or wrecked my body to the point where

worried about having children or I wouldn't be able to physically bear or care for children in the same way because I chose to do this FKT. And that was harder to differentiate and deflect because again, for me, it's kind of been a big thing. I've always wanted to be a mom. And so I did this cool thing on trail and I'd always been an athlete and I got to the end and I loved it. And it was amazing. And then people were not only criticizing that

thing, which that was like that, like that I was like, Okay, I'm done. I'm ready to hike slow and look at flowers. But when they were like, and because you did that, you're a bad mom, and a bad wife. And I was like, Oh, like that, that hurt. So I think identifying is a good like place to be like, Okay, I now see why I felt that way and why I feel this way now and makes it easier to do the work and move forward. But um,

Yeah, I never really made that connection until you brought it up. So thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Finn (41:30.59)
Oh, my, well, thank you. Um, you know, one more question on like that, that post second FKT experience you, you did get, again, I know there was a lot, a lot that could have been desired in the lead up to it during it. And maybe even after it too, but you did get some really, uh, cool media attention from some major outlets. I think, you know, you got the national geographic or adventure of the year. And you had that in your times article and maybe you went on the today show or some, some variant of it.

When you started to interface with these national and global outlets, was there anything that struck you as interesting about the angles they took on your experience and the questions they asked? Because you and I are talking and we're kind of in the trenches of like super niche trail super fans, hiking super fans. So there's going to be like a common dialogue. But these are people that they deal with so many subjects and they're kind of Renaissance people and they only know so much. So

What struck you as interesting about their interests?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (42:32.172)
I mean, I think it was mostly fun and quick because, you know, the culture is just very much into like sound bites, right? So it wasn't like digging super deep like we are here now. They were just like, wow, you hike a lot. OK, good job. I remember like on being part of the morning show, the anchor, he wore so much makeup. Like, that is what struck with me. Like, I was like, oh my gosh. There's just.

so much makeup and so I was like doing this thing that was very dirty, very in the woods, you know, like very stinky, very countercultural, all those things. And then a lot of the publicity that stemmed because of it was very like image driven. So that was a contrast or a clash. But you know, besides that, I felt really

grateful it's kind of a fun ride afterwards to do some of those shows and interviews. I think there is so much about our story that is really positive beyond setting Cheryl records. Just this, like so many women in particular feel fear or guilt or uncertainty about being outdoors or being outdoors alone or adventuring. So really trying to promote that in a positive way.

I was grateful for that opportunity. I was grateful for the opportunity to tell a story where a woman was able to be really successful physically, professionally, because of the strong support of her husband. I think Brew's role in this is often, to me, one of the most important parts of our story, just his example and his support and his service and his love.

It's really beautiful. Like a lot of ways I look at our record, I'm like, that's a love story. Like it, you know, it really is again, a dirty, stinky, kind of gross love story. But at its heart, and this goes back to like, okay, individually, yes, there are definitely things you can do and overcome. But if Brew didn't believe I had a chance or a shot, and if he wasn't willing to give up a summer and show up for me and be sleep deprived and navigate.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (44:53.328)
unmarked Forest Service roads with a paper map and, you know, connect with a wife slash hiker who was always cranky, hangry, thirsty, needed something. If he wasn't willing to like deal with that, we would never be here. I would not be here. I would not have this story to tell. We would not have this story to tell. So, um, yeah, FKT has just changed over time. Like I've had 10 plus years of experience in doing different things. So when I look back

There is still some of the athlete and the competitor in me who's like, oh, that was cool. Or I remember pushing through this low point or whatever it is. And then more than anything, there's this, you know, there's this woman who loves the outdoors who's like, I don't care how people experience it, but to feel wild and beautiful and free is just something that people should have at some point in this life. You know, like that feeling. And there's this, there's this like wife who's like,

Finn (45:26.606)
Thanks for watching!

Jennifer Pharr Davis (45:52.712)
Oh my gosh, my husband and I, we still have really, really hard times and spats and disagreements. And I can't tell you how often we go back to like, well, this one time doing the trail record, we were like at this impasse and we didn't know how do we get through it? And we were so ticked off and like, here's what worked. And we're gonna use that again now. And as a mom who is just like relentless, you know, and it never feels like enough. And then you think back, okay, well.

in this endurance scenario, like I was able to keep moving and recover on the way because of X. And as a mom, I'm going to do the same thing. So I think, you know, that's the gift is that it really has been like this amazing foundation for different pursuits, for different givebacks. And it's just, it's filled me with a lot of gratitude for the people and the places in my life.

Finn (46:45.818)
So, switching gears a little bit, you've got this book, The Pursuit of Endurance. It came out five or six years ago, but it feels brand new to me because I just read it three weeks ago. It's excellent. I kind of want to talk about it a little bit here. I read it sort of as a character profile of five or six or seven people that have made a huge impact on the FKT scene in the last 30 to 40 years.

you provide what I think is a really wholesome portrayal of all these people, their successes, their failures, their faults, their positives. I guess taking the book you wrote, what are your opinions on how you portrayed them in the book versus how these people are often portrayed in other media outlets like the major media stuff like the New York Times, but also even like FKT.com and outside? Were you trying to course

Was there more to be told in your opinion? Talk about that.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (47:43.284)
Well, I certainly wanted to humanize these people, right? Because I think the mainstream media likes to idolize or turn them into controversial figures. And they're just all complicated humans. And I wanted to honor their journeys and experiences, both on and off the trail. And everyone I interviewed, I gave kind of full control over that. And they could, you know.

read their chapters, change anything, offer corrections. There were also, I gave everyone like, if there's something you don't want me to touch, we're not gonna touch it. Like I wanna honor your story and your journey. And I also wanted to really get to know them. So again, like we're not gonna spend an hour together. Like I'm gonna come to your environment. We're gonna spend a few days together. Like we're gonna share meals, share the trail. Like that was one of my goals to get out on trail with everyone who was in the book.

And for the most part, like almost all the people in the book, I kind of believe how vulnerable they were with me and how open they were with me. And I think for most of them, they had experienced kind of a one-dimensional storytelling when their stories were told, you know, on a national level. And it...

it wasn't who they were at the core, at their core. And so some people, like for example, Heather Anderson, she's written some of her own books, which are awesome. Okay, so if you wanna get to know Heather Anderson, like more than reading in pursuit of endurance, it's a teaser, but like go read her books. So you get to know like who she really is. But I think that was before she had put her books out and a lot of these athletes were not gonna write their own books. So they were, they were, I hope,

Finn (49:15.788)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (49:37.908)
since I got is that they were willing and excited to have someone actually tell like the real story if that makes sense. So yeah I think what I wanted to do was sort of write this book that really kind of captured the genesis of trail records FKTs to help people be more of a visitor and less of a tourist like under understand where this came from bring together the two worlds of

through hiking, long distance hiking and trail running because they're both a part of this sport. And sometimes there's, I feel like a competitiveness or attention or dismissal of one side or the other. So like, let's say like, hey, we're all existing in this space. Let's come together here. And then, you know, to like honor and humanize the people who had done incredible things on trail and to help share their stories. And initially I thought, well, if we do that.

then we'll come up with this great recipe for endurance that anyone can tap into and anyone can follow. And if you read the book, you know, I mean, spoiler alert, like I got to the end and I was like, well, there's not a recipe. Like everyone has seemingly their own recipe and their own motivations and their own strategy. And I'm sorry, I can't give you the, you know, A plus B equals C to like crack endurance, but isn't it encouraging that there's all these different ways to keep going.

Finn (50:43.474)
Yeah.

Finn (51:05.15)
Everyone is so complicated, like you said, and my favorite portrayal in the book was Warren Doyle, because, and like, you know, I'm kind of restating what you discussed in the book, but he, you know, early in his life, he exits the mainstream, sort of reprograms himself to create this identity around the Appalachian Trail, which at the time, I think was pretty countercultural to go do that. But then years later,

He becomes this pariah because he kind of kicked off the modern FKT thing. And, you know, people think he's turned the AT into this racetrack. So he started as this counter cultural figure kind of, but then he becomes this person tied to, you know, bringing more of these like mainstream athletes into it. What are your thoughts on his legacy or what, what do you think are the most important parts to remember about his legacy or on the trail?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (51:56.692)
Well, I think the most important thing about Warren and anyone else in the book is what we see is people get really critical over one thing they do or one thing they say, and they just write them off and they cancel them or they get pissed off or they just say that person is all bad because of A, this action, this statement, this choice. But when you get to really know someone's story, it just, it tends to like make sense and it tends to build a ton of empathy. And

Like if you really get to know Warren, you learn that like when he was a child, he had one sibling and he was really, really close to his sister. And she passed away unexpectedly from a brain aneurysm. And that impacted him the rest of his life, like how he lived, his relationship with his parents, his sense of loss, his sense of purpose. Like he had this huge childhood trauma.

And then as a young adult, he spent a lot of time in the coal fields of Appalachia with a folk poet, you know, and kind of like civil servant and advocate. And he saw Southern Appalachians who had nothing. And he just gained this heart for rural America. And he saw how people were really ashamed, especially when they were asked to provide so many needs that we all like to use until we decide it's bad. And then we take away their work and we shame them.

You know, so he saw, he just had these lived experiences, which I think caused him to push himself, caused him to speak out, caused him to think differently. And also just like when you know Warren, you also know that he's not looking for your agreement necessarily. Like he's just looking for a place where you can.

think and have a conversation and debate and challenge each other, you know, and which is a lost art. So, Warren and, you know, everyone in the book, like, when you really heard their stories, you understood why they did what they did, and they felt the way they did. And so again, like I think about America now, and we are in a...

Finn (53:55.582)
Yeah. Which is a lost art.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (54:20.128)
a place of cancer cancel culture and culture wars and if you vote for this person, I can't talk to you I can't be friends with you if you buy this you're you know We're just different people different party find your tribe and I'm like, oh no Just like listen to people's stories and you don't have to agree with them You don't but we're never gonna come together unless you can try to understand where other people are coming from

So that's, Warren makes perfect sense to me. I don't struggle at all with Warren. I love Warren. He's a dear friend. He's given us a ton as a mentor and coach and counselor and some things he does. I'm like, ooh, gross, no. And he knows that. And I say it in front of him and he laughs and we keep going, you know?

Finn (55:01.695)
I'm gonna go.

Finn (55:05.538)
Yeah.

Finn (55:10.038)
Another character I want to talk about in the book is well known to this audience, Scott Jerrick. And the part about Scott Jerrick that I want to discuss has to do a lot with what we were discussing earlier, which is as we, you know, as the AT gets more notoriety, as more trail running athletes go to it to attempt FKTs, there becomes more publicity. It's less common to do it in the way you did it or in the way, you know, Heather Anderson did it or Joey Campanelli did it.

in the way of like, you know, bringing this big media crew around you, or at least to have a lot of fanfare and make it this sort of like party type thing. One of the questions you pose in the book is, how do you pursue these long distance FKTs when all eyes are on you? So in the case of Scott jerk, what did you learn there?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (55:56.992)
Well, I think Scott Jerk and I are very different, very different animals. And whereas he was used to being in the limelight. So I don't know, like I think for me, okay, well, wow. He had a lot of people waiting for him at Trailheads. He had a lot of sponsorship. He had a lot of support and assistance along the way. And again, those are not, I don't jealous, I'm not jealous of that. I do not envy that. If that, if I had that, it would just be so hard. Like he had two jobs.

he had to set an FKT and he had to do publicity along the way. And I think for both Scott and Jenny and their crew, that was a huge lift. Um, so I don't envy it. And I'm impressed at how well he did with the expectation to be a celebrity on trail. Um, the thing I didn't like about, you know, Scott's effort.

There's no and again, now I think people would argue there's kind of a written code or rulebook about doing FKT's and how you go about it. But back in the day when I was doing it, it was just kind of honor code and you reach out to the person before you. But you try to do it like they did it, you know. So when Scott Jurek hired a private ferry to go across the Kennebec, I was like, what? Like you can't like no one's done that. Like you can't.

do that. And he was like, well, of course I would do it. It saved me lots of time. It wasn't safe to afford it. I didn't want to wait for a canoe crossing. And, you know, I don't know that it would have changed anything. But that to me was kind of a loss of like, it's not, it's about, you know, getting an advantage and not honoring like.

the journey before you that you're. And again, trail records, everyone has different weather, everyone has different conditions. It's not always apples to apples, but that to me was a moment where the sport went a little bit more professional and a little less amateur and a little bit more like, we're gonna follow a set of rules and look for where we can make gains instead of just like hold ourselves to like.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (58:16.488)
you know, personal, personal standards, right?

Finn (58:22.282)
The part that I struggle with here, and maybe it's extremely selfish of me as a consumer, but I love seeing these FKTs publicized and frequently updated because I get to follow it like a reality TV show. And I'd have to kind of rack my brain because it was 2015. I think a lot of the updates were Facebook based, but there have been more recent FKTs where because they were tracked so closely or they tried to track them closely.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (58:35.413)
Uh huh.

Finn (58:50.838)
I was able to follow it and it made subsequent long runs that day in my training easier. Or, you know, I had like a refreshed look on the sport and newly inspired. So I don't know if you struggle with the same thing, but how do you balance all of the inspiration that you get because they're by virtue, they're made public versus, you know, some of the detrimental effects of, of doing this, you know, on the immediate landscape and the communities and stuff like that.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (59:18.716)
Well, I think you just need a plan. Like, if you're going into it now and giving live updates, there is a lot of good that comes from that. And I'm not here to argue that. I think telling the story and people getting inspiration from it and seeing what's possible and learning about these new places and national forests and parks and cultures, like, there's a lot of benefits to that. But.

You know, it's also a real shame when someone comes out for a day hike and there's no room at the trailhead because 20 people are there to take pictures of someone coming out of the woods, right? So I think if you are putting live updates, you need to put some guidelines around them and around how people engage with your hike and what your expectations are. And if you do want people to hike with you or not hike with you or if they want to come to the trailhead.

And again, that's another job. Like that is not something I envy and that's going to fall on the support team a lot to try to like manage and communicate those expectations. But, you know, for example, the Appalachian Trail, like having a commercial guiding company, you know, the stipulation is we never have group sizes more than 10. So understanding that if you're doing a trail record and knowing that like, okay, there's a running club here and 25 people want to come run with me. But

Like we can't have that. That's not, you know, that's not really, um, within the spirit or regulations of the trail conservancy or organization or who it is. So understanding those, if you don't know what the limits or regulations or, or group size requirements are, get in touch with the trail organization. Understand that it might be different in all the different land management areas you go through, like national parks are different than national forest. And, um,

Yeah, so that's again where it's like you need to kind of know where you're going and what the rules are and try to like play by the rules of those local land management areas or the trail organization or whatever it might be. And you know I always think it's good, like if we were doing a race,

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:01:44.028)
a formal race, we would pay an entry fee and part of that entry fee would go to land management or whatnot. And people are doing trail records and FKTs and there's, you know, it's free, right? Like sometimes there's a $20 permit or whatever it is, but you're using these incredible resources and not having to financially pay to be on the trail or use that land.

So also having like that in mind when you're like, how do I support the trail that is giving me this opportunity to test myself and test my endurance? And yes, I want people to know about it, but how do they know about it in a responsible way? How do we support this resource? Just being mindful about all that can help when you are at a level where you're expecting maybe like fanfare for an FKT. But.

I really didn't have experience with that, so I'm maybe not the best person to ask.

Finn (01:03:03.632)
Yeah. Well,

Finn (01:03:13.842)
Carl Sabe's movie that just came out on the PCT loved it. And so I still think I'm in the camp of like the opportunity to be, you know, voyeuristic about these FKT attempts. But you make really good points here about, you know, conservation and respecting the trail and making it available to all different types of hikers through the process. And those are those are probably overriding concerns, but I'm still I'm still stuck in that frame of how can I be entertained?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:03:41.052)
Yeah, yeah, I just think that's again, like, if it helps you through the day and inspires you to be your best in some way, shape or form, like I'm not trying to be. I think, like, overall, these are very, very positive endeavors and can do really great things for community and conservation. But I also know and this just comes from being like, and you are through Hiker too like you know how it feels to like

you really, really hungry and have everything you need in your pack for three and a half days and come out to, you know, a trailhead. And all of a sudden, like, there's someone doing the same trail as you who has like a spread of food and a masseuse there. And they're not like sharing and you're like, you know, like, it's just so that's where I'm like, you gotta just be aware, like you gotta

Finn (01:04:27.049)
Hmm.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:04:37.34)
And if you have a nutritionist and spread of food, like be willing to share with other hikers coming to the trailhead. And yeah, yeah. Anyways, I think we've covered, I think we've covered it all.

Finn (01:04:49.999)
Well, and this is super theoretical, but I wonder, does the benefit of being there with this crew and putting out this content and reaching, let's say optimistically, hundreds of thousands of people through that content and all of the second order benefits and inspiration they get to be more active, does that outweigh the in the moment disruption and damage and bothering that?

crew might do to passing through hikers in the land. I don't know. I think I'm trying to justify why I enjoy it, but that's what came to mind.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:05:25.832)
Well, I will also add, when I came into trail records, I think in general, they were perceived very, very negatively. And that was primarily from long distance hiking through hiking culture. But when I got into that world, I felt like I...

part of my responsibility to really be an advocate for like well here's the good that can come from it and here's why people are doing it and here's how we can all get along and building this energy together for the good that we want to accomplish is really important and I think people take it for granted now um that FKT's everything and trail records they're just here to

day, I don't know that I'm fully in that camp. Like I had some fear of reservation or hesitation early on that I'm like, I do think like trail organization and park service and different land management can shut down FKTs. Like there's already certain rules or regulations on like, okay, well maybe there's a closure here. You can't hike it at night or you can't go through it, you know, like if it becomes too much of disruption and they see it as a threat to the resource.

Finn (01:06:24.706)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:06:40.2)
It could be taken away. Like I would not be surprised if in the next 10 or 20 years, there's a trail or, you know, somewhere here or there that says like, and they've always, for the most part said, we don't recognize trail records, you know, but if it's, if it's, if the trail Katahdin is the best example, right? Like Jerk had the big issue up at Baxter State Park and it didn't just reflect on like FKTs and trail records, like Baxter was like,

harsh on all through hikers for a period. Like their regulations got stricter, who could go up, how many could go up, when you can go up. Like it became more regulated. So I just think like, setting a trail record, hiking a long trail, it's all a privilege, right? Like it's all a privilege. And for people who are gonna participate in it, it's...

Finn (01:07:19.338)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:07:36.744)
it's really important that you see it as a responsibility to be an ambassador for the sport, for the community, for the land around you. And so that people can continue to do it in a way where it's like times don't just get faster, but like people are doing it in a better way that has less impact, more inspiration and more give back. Right. So if it like goes in that way, I think it's gonna be awesome. If it goes in another way, I think people are gonna...

see a change to what is permissible, what's allowed, and it'll bring more negativity to something that has so much potential to do good. So yeah, we'll see.

Finn (01:08:21.51)
One more element that I want to talk about in this particular arena is, and I know we've been talking a lot about how the scene might be losing touch with its origins or its heritage. One part of this I think would be good to discuss is whether or not it's being overregulated because in addition to all of the cameras and the crews, everyone's required to have these really sophisticated trackers now and there are all these relatively new norms on FKT.com.

It's changed a lot. You know, it's kind of people have been kind of riffing off the latest person style It seems with you know on different trails What are your thoughts about sort of the level of regulation that we're seeing in this space?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:09:03.132)
yeah yes I can be over-regulated but again like I'm like a grandma on the sport and I'm old and cremegine and I'm like people can cheat with a tracker if they want to cheat with a tracker like doing it on the honor system felt like a really cool way to do it in today's culture um you know again it goes back to your why like why and there were people that claimed they set the record after we set the record that did not

did not set a record. Like there was, and for the most part, the community was like, no, like I saw you here or you hitchhiked there, it didn't work. Like, and Appalachian Trail has enough foot traffic to kind of make that happen, you know, to have that kind of community accountability. But at the end of the day, someone gets to the end, they set a record, they don't set a record, people believe them, not believe them. It's not gonna change my experience and what I took from it.

So, and then, and again, like you have people like Scott Williamson, who's in pursuit of endurance, who has done some of the most incredible trail feats that I've ever heard of or learned about. And he was the one who said, you know, honestly, if I set a record now, I wouldn't even tell people. Like I wouldn't even tell people. I just do it because it's important to me. And that would be enough. So yeah, I think.

Finn (01:10:22.327)
How come?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:10:29.)
I mean, in general, I think things are too over-regulated. That goes for land management, that goes for FKTs. And we're just headed into more and more and more regulation. And it's hard to really feel free when things become so heavily regulated. So.

Finn (01:10:50.762)
What you just said about Scott Williamson reminded me of like what I think is a pretty decent purity test. Would you still do said activity if you couldn't tell anybody about it? I think that the answer to that question is an amazing way to really quickly find out if you're truly interested in what you're doing, if you're willing to go through all the trials and tribulations. There's a lot to take from this episode, but I think that what you said there about Scott is a really good one.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:11:18.088)
Yeah, I agree. You do it because it's life-changing, right? I mean, you do it because it's life-changing.

Finn (01:11:20.235)
Um, yeah.

Finn (01:11:26.094)
couple of questions before we wrap up. The first, I didn't realize that you were a classics major in college, which I think is super cool. My mom loves the classic. She's an English teacher in high school. And you know, they're always reading like, you know, Othello and not Othello, that's a Shakespearean thing. But, you know, like the Greco, the Greco Roman type stuff, Odyssey, stuff like that. Is there anything from your training as a classics major that you that you brought into the trail experience to kind of guide you through?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:11:40.682)
Odyssey.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:11:44.233)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:11:52.104)
Well, it gave me my trail name. I was comparing the AT the first time I hiked it to Homer's Odyssey. And so someone said, you should be Odysseus. And I was like surrounded by five guys. And I was like, there's too many guys out here already. I don't want to be another one of them. So we changed Odysseus to Odyssa and that has been my trail name ever since.

But I think, okay, and like people will joke on that, you know, that, okay, I had this humanities, liberal arts, college major. So of course I was gonna go hike the trail and set trail records. Like what else, what else was I gonna do? I did work, I self-financed all of these. Like this was not, you know, I worked at a museum for a long time. I started my own hiking company.

I think when I found the classics, and again, this goes back to like the purity aspect, like I took a classics course, it was not what I was going to major in, but so much of it, it's not just Greco-Roman language history culture, a lot of it is ideals, like this is the culture that gave us the Olympics, like this is the culture that gave us democracy.

And I started taking those classes just out of personal interest. And I knew from the beginning, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this, but I know this is the way I want to learn. Like the teachers were great. It was interactive. The topics like really made you think critically about humanity, about society. Like I got to study philosophy, which was, you know, super engaging. I got to learn Greek and read like the Bible and it's

original language, the New Testament, like all these things to me, I was like, just really rich. Felt really rich, even though I knew I would probably financially never be really rich as a classics major. So yes, I think a big part of...

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:13:48.98)
doing the Appalachian Trail my first time. And in case it's unclear in the podcast, because we've referenced so many different hikes, I did the Appalachian Trail three times. So the first time was a traditional five month through hike, then women's record, then men's record. But I wanted that experience of going outdoors and I wanted the experience of living simply. And I wanted to test my limits. And I think part of that was because of my...

academic background is looking for the ideals, looking for the better way, wanting to carve out a life that didn't just feel productive but felt meaningful. So I wouldn't have changed anything. I wish, you know, along the way I was like, oh, I would have loved a business degree and a marketing degree and an English degree and now I'm in public policy school, but I would never trade my...

Finn (01:14:28.142)
Mm.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:14:43.448)
Yeah, undergrad classics major. I really loved it. I'm really grateful for it.

Finn (01:14:49.258)
not very steeped in the classics, but there's a book that I probably read once every two or three years called The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. It's all about the hero's journey and how do you grapple with the largest kind of overarching questions in life. And I find even if there's not any immediate profit or sustainability in it, when you do get into potentially profitable or life-changing scenarios, you're not going to be able to do anything

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:14:56.928)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (01:15:16.29)
you're ready to confront them and you're ready to answer them to the best of your ability. So I think that's, to me, that's always been the big value of the liberal arts education is it teaches you how to think.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:15:28.52)
Yeah, exactly. I agree.

Finn (01:15:32.278)
Um, last question, and I've really enjoyed this conversation. This has been awesome. Uh, you, there's a line in the book. You say, if you don't choose the mantra, the mantra will choose you. So, a, what was your mantra on the trail? And then I guess B, what did you mean by this?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:15:42.06)
Thank you.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:15:49.552)
Oh, that's, you know, it's a pretty straightforward, like especially, I think certainly for long distance runners, but it's worse for long distance backpackers. Like if you are out in the woods and mostly hiking by yourself for days and weeks and months at a time, it will happen. You will get a phrase, you will get a song, you will get a joke, you will get something stuck in your head that you cannot get out of your head. And that's not a bad thing.

necessarily. But, you know, I think choosing an intention that's helpful and that's motivating and that's grounding and gets to your why. When you are in those hard times or low times or times when things are just popping into your head, having that intentional reminder can be a tool, it can be a boost. So I've certainly had different mantras over different

adventures and endeavors. But I belong was really big for me when I was trying to set the overall record, especially trying to be the first woman to do that. Telling myself I belonged was really big. Sometimes, you know, my first high grade, I didn't know if I could make it to the end. I would tell myself, and it felt so far away, so, so far away. I told myself like, every step I take is a step closer to Maine. Every step I take is a step closer to Maine.

Um, and then a lot of times when, you know, brew was helping me, I would say just get to your husband. Like that was, I don't know. It was like a short-term goal, but really motivating for me. It's just get to your husband. Like it was just a simple reminder. Like, uh, it was going towards something really good. Like someone I loved who would have food. Um, so yeah.

And now, I mean, yeah, it's just, it's really different most of the time. It's, it's parenting related or it's encouraging me not to compare myself to other professionals or other parents or, you know, again, what would you do? You said, what would you do if, if no one else knew about it? You know, me right now in my mid-career professional part of life, I'm asking myself.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:18:19.296)
What would I do if money wasn't an issue? What would I do if funding wasn't an issue? What would I do? And that's not totally realistic, but it is really clarifying to be like, am I choosing this because it is my passion or am I choosing it because of a paycheck? And there is compromise in there because you provide for your family, right? But trying to ask yourself, if money was not a part of this, which direction would I go?

It's not necessarily a mantra, but it's helping me, I think, find the next mantra, if that makes sense.

Finn (01:18:53.366)
Jennifer Faraday was we cannot thank you enough for your time. I know that the whole Appalachian Trail FKT Part of your life is a very small subset There's you know way more complexity to what you do and your mission But thank you for entertaining us and giving us a lot of insights and inspiration I know that again the book has been out a while But it's called the pursuit of endurance and if anybody has enjoyed books in the ultra running space I guarantee you this one will rise to the top of the list. I devoured it in I think 48 hours and

It would have been 24 hours, but I have a wife and we wanted to do other things on those days. Otherwise, if I was single, I would have finished it in 24 hours. Um, but it was excellent. We'll link to it in the show notes. Is there anything else that you're working on, um, that we should bring attention to or also include before we go?

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:19:26.697)
I'm sorry.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:19:40.356)
Oh, no, it's just all very different now. I'm in a graduate school for public policy and coming out of that. I'm trying to write a book with my neighbor about living in a very, very gentrifying kind of cross-cultural neighborhood. And I'm trying to put together a capstone project that really addresses how the most significant threats and issues we'll face in the near and long term are going to be environmental. And yet we don't have.

um an effective or efficient government or cultural support to get things passed that really we all agree on. So that's big and nebulous but all I would say is like stay tuned um you can find me on social media. I'm actually not there right now because I always take a big break between Thanksgiving and New Year's but generally I post lots of lots of adventures and random you know

Finn (01:20:31.714)
Yeah.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:20:39.648)
Whether it's outdoor related, parenting related, or policy related, there's always new stuff going on in our world, so you can stay tuned there. But this has been awesome. Thank you, Finn. I really appreciate it.

Finn (01:20:52.278)
Would you ever run for public office? It seems like a lot of this is geared towards a career in public policy, like toural politics.

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:21:00.064)
I really am interested in creating change and conservation and like I wouldn't rule it out if that was the best way to do it, but that's not like, I don't wake up being like, whew, yes. Being a politician is hard, it's hard, especially in the way it's set up today. And you know, I'm an-

Finn (01:21:14.574)
Thank you.

Finn (01:21:19.534)
Thanks for watching!

Jennifer Pharr Davis (01:21:23.804)
Independent voter from a swing state and there's not really a good path for me to be me in politics But so that's the question is like Okay, how do I create change? How do I value conservation? How do I use who I am? To do that, so I'm trying to figure that out