Long Run Archives #13 | UTMB Whistler Controversy, Javelina Jundred Recap, Senseman Retires

Finn (00:00.598)
All right, we are back with the 13th edition of the Long Run Archives. I think it's been almost six months since our last recording before the Canyon's 100K, but it's been way too long. I'm joined by a frequent colleague and sort of the creator of this type of episode, Brad Hornig. We also have a special guest today. Jamil Curry from AeroVipa running. Guys, I think we should get right into it. Increasingly, there is never a dull moment in trail running, and we're about to talk about at least.

the latest of it today, starting with Eric Sensman and his retirement. When I saw this on Instagram a few days ago, and then as it played out sort of the discussion around it in our Discord channel, I just thought, wow, this is like, in my opinion, sort of like a serious sign that the sport is getting more professional, that people are taking time out of their social media to like make it official and to walk away. Starting with you, Brett, what are your thoughts there? What was your initial reaction?

Brett Hornig (00:58.463)
Yeah, I mean, I think Eric Sensen, he's been such a pivotal, really a pivotal member of like North American trail running. Uh, he's, he's been in it for, for a while and it's been really cool to see his journey. And, and I'm sure he'll still race and I'm sure he'll still run, but it's not going to be with the year round intent of like, I'm going to make this my job. So I think it's, it's really cool to have.

like a retirement post like that and be like, all right, I tried, I tried my best. I I'm pretty sure I got as good as I did, you know, no regrets. Thank you. I think that's awesome. I feel like had there been a bigger social media presence when like essentially when Scott Juric retired from racing, we would have seen something similar, but maybe this is, I don't know, maybe this is something to come cause like, I think Scott, you know,

Jamil, what was it? Like Scott said he was like never going to do a race again after 40 or something like that.

jamil (02:03.585)
Yeah, I think when I was spending time with him, but you know, when he was in his hay day, I remember him saying like my competitive running will be done by 40 and you look at his ultra signup, his last result on there is 39 years old. So he stuck to that. I think he might've moved into some of the FKT stuff beyond that potentially, but yeah, he, he hung it up.

Brett Hornig (02:23.192)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (02:27.042)
Jamil, Eric had some of his greatest moments in the sport at year races, maybe one of the more decorated Black Canyon 100K finishers in the race's history. Obviously he has participated in some of the live streams that AeroVipa has done at that race and others over the years. We saw him at Cocodona last year. Do you have any particular memories that come to mind about what he's done over the last five, six, seven, eight years in the sport?

jamil (02:52.893)
Let me first off just say I'm a little bit in shock still. And like, I don't really want to let it sink in. Like he's done, what? But yeah, I mean, he's a, he was a pivotal storyline in Black Canyon Ultras when it came down to chasing golden tickets. And I guess at larger, just the golden ticket chase. And I think those are some of the most fun storylines to follow throughout the year or multi-year. I think there was, there was another one, was it like?

Paul Sweeney or Joe Yuhan, I forget. Maybe Paul Sweeney. It was like a multi-year effort chasing these tickets down. And for Eric to, I think, multiple time earn tickets, some years he blows up, some years he DNFs. It's just, it's like the incredible agony of defeat, but also the triumph of victory of our sport. When you can watch a guy like that do that.

Finn (03:48.926)
Brett, maybe I'll throw this to you next, but I was reading through, you know, the description on this post and he said a couple things that I found absolutely fascinating. He said, quote, there's no stone left to turn over and quote, I think I've found out how good I could be. And this is the guy that's saying that in his like early to mid thirties. It's like I think most people that are in the sport, it's rare for them to ever brush that close to their potential. Allegedly he appears to have done that. Are you buying this?

Brett Hornig (04:15.787)
You know, I actually do because this isn't the first person that I know that has said essentially those same things. This when Mac Fleet retired from competitive track and field, he said the same thing. And a lot of people were like, Oh, his pro career just never really quite panned out. He ran his PR in the 1500 in college and then he matched it again as a pro under three different coaches. It's like, okay.

Well, then at that point, yeah, I, three different coaches, like I'm probably as good as I'm going to get. Um, and that was, that was that. And it's like, okay, you got to come to terms with that. Not that Eric's had like a gazillion different coaches, but he really did get to, he got to try to see how good he could get in perhaps one of the best. Like lightning in a bottle training groups of, in the history of the sport. Like he got to be a part of the Coconino Cowboys.

And I don't know how like in those years, like, you know, five years ago till now, I don't know how you get any better running, uh, outside of that group. Like they had, you know, the Western States, like the number one and number two of all times at one point, they had like five qualify for States. They had chasing golden tickets. Dialed like they were dialed. And then, and that, and then.

when you have those variables, like when you take those variables out of the way, it's like, then it just kind of comes down to like you as an individual, how good are you going to get? So, I mean, I think I believe him.

Finn (05:52.974)
And it's also amazing, you know, talking about that training environment, we're really learning now maybe two or three years after the fact, just how demanding that environment was and how much it took of each runner to, to be in it and to give their all and to get results from it. Like it's kind of like the analogy of throwing eggs at the wall and who sticks. And I mean, a lot of people are still in it, but Walms is kind of the only guy left standing in some ways. And I mean, Eric's here to retire today. So it was tough.

Brett Hornig (06:22.779)
Yeah, and like that's usually the case with big training groups. The one who's the best is oftentimes the one who gets the longest career because they have the most control over their training. So for Eric to not be at the top of that totem pole, but still throw down very good results over the course of multiple years. Yeah, that is really impressive. And it takes a lot of just like...

mental fortitude, I mean, not only the physical demand, but just to like, go through that every day and have like a 50% explosion rate at races. That's hard to then come back and then actually have a great race. So like, yeah, like hats off to Senseman for an incredible ultra running career.

Finn (07:10.47)
Jamil, you're one of the great promoters in our sport. What do you think about this formal retirement announcement? Is it going to take off?

jamil (07:20.317)
I think maybe it could. I think sometimes it is important to bookend something. Whereas, yeah, some just kind of fade away without us really knowing what's going on. But it's definitely an interesting move. I think we've had some maybe fake retirements, or maybe a little, I don't know, a little brash. A race doesn't go your way. You throw in the towel. Do you guys see that at all? I guess throw it back at you. Like, b-b-b-b-b-b.

Do you think that this is truly the end for him?

Brett Hornig (07:52.447)
This is just an opportunity to announce that you're coming out of retirement.

Finn (07:55.835)
Exactly. 18 months later, a single post, I'm back.

jamil (07:56.571)
Hahaha!

Brett Hornig (08:01.059)
So, okay, what's the DraftKings over under right now for Eric Sensen getting a golden ticket to the 2024 Black Canyon?

jamil (08:01.327)
I mean...

Finn (08:10.511)
Oh my gosh. But yeah, no, I agree. I think, yeah, it does. Even if he is done, that's great. But if he's not done, it creates just another interesting storyline that we can latch onto maybe.

jamil (08:23.445)
He's just the ultimate storyteller, maybe.

Finn (08:25.984)
Yes.

Brett Hornig (08:27.139)
Yes, I'm so excited for Eric to get in the booth more, you know, like selfishly. Uh, he's so good. He's really good at calling races. And I, I see a perfect, you know, a perfect transition for Eric. Go from start line straight to the booth.

Finn (08:44.266)
Jamil, I gotta throw this next topic back to you to kick us off. You know, we were putting together the agenda for this episode late last night and friend of the podcast, Anthony Castellus texted me and said, Hey, check this out. I don't follow the quiet 50 page. I do now, but it was the Instagram story that the race director posted saying that essentially they're one and done. Not only are they not doing the race next year, but it's, it's gone for good.

And I saw you post in the Discord channel saying this is a fascinating or this is an interesting case study in sort of like the build up of an event and then sort of like the rest in peace of an event. So where do you want to start with this?

jamil (09:23.621)
Yeah, I mean, it probably starts with looking at the race director, Brady Smallwood, I believe is his name, successful entrepreneur coming to the ultra running world kind of with bright eyes and I think he sold a pretty successful swimwear company a few years back, probably had some money and thought, Hey, I want to make a splash.

I want to create something special, something different, something to really get elites to attend and make a big deal, you know, have it in a, an exciting destination. It looked like he had a, a pretty cool course. It was a, I believe a road course, 50 miler on Kauai and a lot of, you know, had a great looking website and $50,000 in prize money to put up. So certainly was reaching out to all the.

the influential elites of the sport. So I think kind of doing all those things that I think like an entrepreneur would do, like or a startup would do, trying to make a successful thing happen, opened registration on UltraSignUp, all the stuff that maybe you would think that would create a successful event. And then I think a little bit of the reality started to hit of maybe the niche of the sport or what this is and ultimately,

the course had to be changed. I think Brett, you may have some insights on this, but the permitting of that original route was gonna be prohibitively expensive unless you were like the size of like maybe a major road marathon or a comrade's. So ended up what we originally thought was gonna be a 50 mile road course, kind of maybe an epic out and back point to point style turned into, oh, as a night race as well.

Brett Hornig (11:01.519)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Hornig (11:11.663)
through the night.

Yeah, it was going to start at like midnight and then run and then you finish as the sun's coming up. I'm like, everything was amazing about this because you're running in Hawaii in August at night. That makes way more sense.

Finn (11:17.098)
Wow. Ha ha ha.

jamil (11:19.93)
Okay.

jamil (11:25.849)
Yeah. And so it turned into, I think a 12 and a half mile loop around a coffee plantation, I think on some dirt roads. I don't know the exact course, but kind of more of a self-contained event. Um, but he did host the event successfully had a great field. It seemed like great content coverage of the event. I think he had some great filmmakers out there, put out a documentary. Open registration for next year. If you go to the website, still the kawaii 50.com you can.

You can see that he was offering us a brand new 2024 Subaru Outback. If you broke 5.30, you can also spin a wheel for a race discount. Like there's some, some interesting things that are just different. Um, but yeah, ultimately. Couldn't get the numbers to pencil, I guess.

Brett Hornig (12:13.643)
So not to put anyone on blast here, but there was only a Subaru Crosstrek to break 530. There was no women's equivalent.

Brett Hornig (12:25.091)
Just, yep, it was just, if you break 530, you're getting a cross checker. If you're the first person to break 530, and I actually, the person who brought that up to me was Ryan Miller when we were running together at.

Finn (12:25.197)
Mm-hmm. It was just 5.30 your bust for anybody.

Brett Hornig (12:37.559)
Havalina because he was telling me he was like, oh yeah, I'd totally go back and run Kawhi 50 again. He was like, yeah, even next year, you get a Subaru Crosstrek if you run five, five thirty. And he was like, no one's ever doing that on that course in that weather. But it's cool that it's there. He's like, I thought it was a little interesting though, that there was no like female equivalent time to break and it was just one car. So maybe that was just part of maybe there was only one Subaru up for donation and not two.

Finn (13:06.27)
Jamil, have you ever partnered with a local car dealership to offer anything like this before? Is this even like, how do you imagine he was making this possible? Was he directly working with a local car company? Was he purchasing the car and then using it?

Brett Hornig (13:18.815)
Yeah, maybe you just bought a car.

jamil (13:22.269)
So if you go to Ultra Sign Up page, which now says that it's canceled, it says that there's a whole kind of legal terms and conditions here actually. I think it says there's like no affiliation with like with Subaru or anyone, so.

Brett Hornig (13:43.663)
So this is potentially him purchasing a car with his own money for anyone who breaks 530 in the hopes that enough people would sign up for the race, that it would offset itself.

jamil (13:50.39)
Yeah, it says it's...

jamil (13:57.273)
It's called a giveaway. So the giveaway is not affiliated in any way with Subaru or Ultrasignup.com. It's not endorsed by any brand whose products or services are being offered as parts of the prize package in any way. So, yeah, it's a 2024. So you may opt to receive a cash prize of $15,000 instead of the grand prize. And then it says the MSRP of one of these vehicles is $24,995.

Brett Hornig (14:09.379)
Was it a new cross trick?

Brett Hornig (14:28.039)
like probably a couple grand to ship it back to the states but then you could probably sell it straight back to Subaru yeah I think I'd take the car and I would try and then try and sell it uh I mean I live in Oregon I could probably sell it for more than 24 grand

jamil (14:36.111)
Maybe he'll buy it at your local dealership. I don't know.

Finn (14:41.954)
Yeah.

jamil (14:49.505)
Make sure you read the fine print because you do need to pay all of the taxes, title, registration, insurance, etc.

Finn (14:57.314)
So a couple grand at least, depending where you live.

Brett Hornig (15:01.567)
Yeah. Hmm. Interesting.

Finn (15:04.534)
I got two things to say on this. The first is even though this didn't work, I am always a big fan of anybody that goes and steps up to the plate, takes a big swing, maybe tries to shake things up a bit, give something for people to talk about, all that. But at the same time, I have so many questions and maybe, and Brett, if you have thoughts your way into, but like Jamil asking you directly, what is, in your experience, what is the best way to go about...

bringing prize money into a race in a sustainable way where it's gonna work for the event, but it's also gonna work down the road. And then all these other bells and whistles too, like that spinning wheel that got you discounts and in the car. Like, what do you have to satisfy before you start to think about those bells and whistles is what I'm wondering.

jamil (15:52.137)
What do you have to satisfy? I mean, I think first off, I don't think those are in lieu of just creating a great course and create, create a great vibe that people want to attend. I think that's like number one, like create a great race. Um, and then that stuff maybe can come later as far as prize money sustainability. I mean, we haven't offered a ton of prize money at Aerovipa in the past. It's like here and there typically it's.

if we're part of a larger race series that requires it or like a USATF championship.

We're dabbling in it a little bit more. Um, I mean, what, what are the biggest prize purses in the sport? I mean, the North face 50 was definitely one that came out of a North face marketing budget that probably gets offset by people picking up their packet at the North face store in San Francisco and buying a bunch of gear. It's, it's basically a marketing line item. I think the entire series was, and that's why we saw that entire series get cut. When the marketing budget got cut, the race series went away. Um,

Brett Hornig (16:33.731)
Run, Rabbit.

jamil (16:54.317)
Run Rabbit Run is run by a bunch of guys that, you know, it's basically run as a nonprofit and instead of paying salaries to the people that organize the event in any way, they donate their time and they put the prize, they put that money, not only towards charitable causes, but entirely towards a prize purse in addition to their partners and sponsorship dollars.

Finn (17:21.734)
In the case of Aerovipa, are there any events that do serve the purpose of being more like marketing lion items and maybe they aren't quite profitable or they break even, but they serve a larger purpose of maybe creating like a coherent series of events or they just reach a certain market who you know will buy into future events in the future? Like, how do you think about that?

jamil (17:43.477)
Well, I certainly view the live streaming that we're doing as a marketing expense, I think in general, like it. I think it does bring people into the ecosystem, hopefully of just the broader sport, not necessarily even the specific race that we're live streaming or an air Viper event itself, but you know, we certainly hope to benefit at some point down the road, but you know, we're certainly, we're not covering every dollar of outlay for the live streams. We're.

We're investing in it and we think that it's important to do.

Finn (18:17.314)
Brett, any thoughts?

Brett Hornig (18:19.583)
Yeah. I mean, the, the whole, like where the prize money comes from for trail racing is so different than, you know, like say Boston marathon, New York city marathon, you, and you get 50,000 people signing up for a race. It's easy to pull a couple bucks from each race entry fee and then throw it towards, you know, the prize purse. You just can't do that even in like, you know, like how many people were at Javelina this year, like in the a hundred mile, like almost a thousand. Like.

jamil (18:47.941)
Yeah. Like there was like 780 starters.

Brett Hornig (18:48.725)
It's still that's.

Yeah, like that's nothing compared to the New York City Marathon. So it's like, you can't really pull the prize purse from the entrance. So then it's like, well, where

jamil (19:03.345)
What's like, if we wanted to put together like a $20,000 prize purse at have Alina, it's like that'd be $30 of every single runner, right? Going towards it.

Finn (19:13.644)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (19:13.919)
Yeah. And it's like, what are you like, Hey runners this year, none of you are getting a shirt. Instead, the winner is getting your shirt in the form of cash. It's like, I don't know, maybe there's a, do you want to donate your shirt to the prize purse when you can sign up for the race? Maybe it's an optional. And then we just see like how big the prize purse ends up getting. But I just, I just don't know if it should be on the backs of the race registrants in American trail running just because of like,

Finn (19:22.967)
Thank you.

Brett Hornig (19:43.003)
know, how the permitting process works for races. Like they're just small. So then really, then it kind of comes down to, you know, well, at least the way I see it, I'm like, then it comes down to kind of sponsors. And it's like, if you want to sponsor a race over these X number of years, you know, you will contribute this much to the prize purse, maybe growing over the course of three years or five years. And maybe that's kind of going back, circling back to like the quite 50, maybe that's something that in hindsight, Brady could have.

Finn (20:01.902)
Thanks for watching!

Brett Hornig (20:11.083)
accounted for was the fact that you can't grow a like buy it for life kind of race in one year. You know, it might have been like maybe the prize purse should have been like $3,000 or $5,000 year one and then $8,000 or two, you know, $15,000 or three, whatever it is. Maybe that's an easier pill to swallow when pitching that to sponsors as well. Not just being like, I've never put on a race before. I don't know how many people are going to get there.

but I would love for you to contribute $60,000 to this prize purse for one year. Like maybe there was a more long-term approach.

Finn (20:46.74)
Or maybe, maybe.

maybe in the first year it could just be a symbolic check like in semi-pro and it's like, you just want a giant check that says $10,000 and you have to go to a big bank to cash it in, otherwise it doesn't work. Ha ha.

Brett Hornig (21:01.055)
Yeah. Like maybe, maybe it's something like that. Maybe, maybe there was a slightly longer term growth solution, uh, for a race like this, cause kind of like Jamil said too, like it's like create that great race atmosphere, really get the community involved and like, if you have a whole bunch of people rallying behind you for a race, you're going to get people to come out to that and like, that's what I've seen.

I've been at Havelina two years in a row now and like, Havelina does such a good job of that, of kind of finding that line between like major event and still feeling like a large, like a community get together.

Finn (21:47.506)
Maybe last question on this front. And Jamil, I'm curious in particular, when you look at a race like the Kwai 50, I actually don't know if Brady had presenting sponsors or any sponsorship dollars flowing in, it could be the case he didn't, okay, didn't. How important is that component to the business model? Like if you think about like a percentage breakdown, is it like 90% race registrations that fund it versus like 10% sponsor dollars? Is it a bigger difference there? Like what's been your experience?

Brett Hornig (22:00.983)
No, there was like nothing on the site.

jamil (22:17.461)
Yeah, I think it just depends on the race, of course. Like we have a huge variety of events. We have little tiny events and big ones. And yeah, I mean, I think the majority of the sport is still funded by participant entry fees overall. I think that some of the, like a Western states, I haven't like dove into their nonprofit financials. What is it, Forum 990 or something? I think you can actually take a look and see.

the breakdown there, but that one's probably a little more heavy on sponsorship dollars. I don't have the numbers offhand for us, but yeah, it's definitely a small percentage.

Finn (22:55.566)
Okay.

Finn (23:00.686)
All right, changing topics. We have to talk about a potential feature celebrity trail runner in the sport and that is Ryan Hall. Thanks to Jim Mil for finding this one. But Brett, I have to ask you first about this because it looks like Ryan Hall is like super dabbling in the ketone space. What are your thoughts there?

Brett Hornig (23:16.919)
I mean, what we were chatting in our little WhatsApp group, you're like, yeah, it looks like Ryan Halded rim to rim to rim and he didn't take any calories that weren't ketones until 10 hours in and this what did it take him 15 hours? I'm not sure if that's the correct way to use ketones. But it's fascinating that he was able to do that, though. I don't condone that. But that is super interesting.

that he was able to go 10 hours at like a much higher clip than a walk. You know, like there was a lot of running in there at off of just freaking beta hydroxybutyrate. That makes it sound so much scarier. But yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, what is Ryan Hall doing right now? Like what is...

What is he doing in the sport? And I mean that in like the best ways.

Finn (24:18.359)
And for folks that don't know, he is the fastest American men's marathoner of all time, at least until CJ Albertson changes that. But yeah, for context, fastest American men's marathoner of all time. Jamil, what were you gonna say?

jamil (24:18.409)
He's...

jamil (24:31.541)
Oh, I think I was going to, well, yeah, until he turned into a retired and turned into a weightlifter basically. Right.

Brett Hornig (24:37.387)
Yeah, he had an official retirement post.

Finn (24:37.57)
Well, he's a hybrid athlete now.

jamil (24:39.589)
Yeah. Well, now he's kind of coming back into it, but I was going to say, I just love what he's doing right now. He's going on like the, it seems like his, his trail running adventures are these spiritual quests for him. And he's, he did, he's doing some of these things where he, he's like, I'm going to go run to the top of this mountain, but I'm going to carry nothing with me. And we're just going to wear a pair of shorts, no water. I'm going to drink out of streams, no calories. Like I'm just going to see how far I can go. And it's like,

I think it's maybe what drew, I think a lot of us to someone like Anton Kripichka back in the day of just this minimalism mindset, being one with nature, just kind of being an ant, a wild animal out there, like bagging peaks. It's that stuff. I think it still appeals to me down deep down, like, yeah, we don't need all this gear and we should just go have this journey in the forest and see what we cut, we come up back with.

Brett Hornig (25:39.771)
Yeah. I mean, I kind of love that. Also just Ryan Hall's background, you know, he was very good in high school. He ran almost four minutes in the mile in high school, went to Stanford, had a great collegiate career, pretty much switched like straight to the roads and then was just in the two to three marathons a year cycle until he retired. His training has been very much contained.

you know, very methodical. This is probably the most freeing form of running he's ever done because he's not doing it for money or race results or like as his job, he's just like, Oh my gosh.

I'm going to go there. I'm going to go there today because I feel like it. And this is probably, you know, since he's retired from running, but you know, when he retired from running, he didn't really run for a while. Now that he's getting back into it and finding a love for just the act of running for reasons that he's never really run for ever, I bet it's got to be one of the best feelings in the world.

Finn (26:48.134)
I have a prediction for next year. I know that I'm jumping the gun on our prediction recap episode next month, but looking at what Ryan Hall is doing, like he did an 80 plus mile week with 30K avert on five days of running in Crested Butte last month. That's amazing. But he is a self-described hybrid athlete, which means that at least in his case, he's in the gym bench pressing like 300 pounds, but also doing this like trail running ultra type stuff.

There's another guy in this space, his name's Nick Barre, Barre performance nutrition. He, he does a similar thing, like where he lifts a ton of weights, goes and does the level 100 sets of goal there. My big prediction in 2024 is that we're going to see this massive influx of like the meatheads into our sport that are super curious about pairing ultras with weightlifting. And we're going to see a lot of people like Nick and Ryan doing these things. And so.

Even though we're thinking that like Iron Man is going to bring in all these triathletes to the sport, my prediction is we're actually going to see all these like weightlifters coming in because they're super inspired by Nick and Ryan.

Brett Hornig (27:49.647)
It's like this Havalina 100th livestream has been brought to you by NoExplode, Creatine, and Preworkout.

Finn (27:55.17)
Hahaha!

jamil (27:57.641)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Finn (27:59.051)
It could be.

Brett Hornig (28:00.671)
C4 energy drink, prime! Dude, bring it. Dude, bring on the heart attacks.

Finn (28:03.426)
C4 is crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Beta-alanine is legit.

jamil (28:09.753)
Oh my god.

Finn (28:12.434)
Jamil, if Ryan Hall showed up to your door at AeroVipa headquarters tomorrow and said, I want to try an AeroVipa event, I want to do an ultra, you make the decision for me, which event would you have him run and why?

jamil (28:26.745)
Oh, well I think with what he's been doing, I would recommend him run Tushers 100k of course. I think it just would be quite fitting. I think he seems to be really stoked by the high mountain stuff, by the scrambling, by the ruggedness and I think he would absolutely love it.

Brett Hornig (28:35.66)
Yeah.

Finn (28:48.578)
How about you, Brett?

Brett Hornig (28:50.695)
Dude, yeah, I actually was kind of drawn to blank. Cause I was like, I immediately went to just the races that I know he like with his physical gifts could run while I'm like, Oh yeah, I want to see Ryan Hall like get, get in good running shape and just go throw down a black Canyon. But that's taking everything that he's been doing right now and just like throwing it out the window, like basically I'm just, just using him for his body. You know, but taking what he's.

Finn (28:51.887)
This is so good.

Brett Hornig (29:17.467)
actually been doing and enjoying it. It's like, yeah, Jamil, you're totally right. Like something like touchers. Awesome choice.

Finn (29:24.294)
We have never talked about touchers on this podcast, Brett. I know you just ran it this year. I've created the last three years. I firmly believe touchers is, and I'm not sponsored saying this. Touchers is the most underrated ultra trail race in America right now. I wish more people knew about it. I wish it had a place in some sort of series. I wish elites more elites went to it. It is unreal. Cool.

Brett Hornig (29:39.436)
It's.

Brett Hornig (29:44.563)
It's just like, it's the most underrated like mountain range in America. Like everyone I've talked to this year, we've been like, what, what were you up to this year? I was like, I went and ran the Tushers 70k. Not a single person knew like what the Tushers mountains even were. I was like, they're in Utah and they're like, you sure about that?

Finn (30:04.695)
Hehehehe

jamil (30:05.193)
Sounds like we're failing on our marketing attempts here.

Finn (30:08.846)
Could we get a live stream there? Are like the reception stuff hurdles possible?

Brett Hornig (30:14.127)
Good start, Lincoln.

jamil (30:14.777)
We did it at hard rock. So like after that, anything's possible. Yeah. I think we absolutely could. I think we probably need to. Yeah.

Finn (30:21.706)
The industry is amazing.

Brett Hornig (30:22.923)
Yeah, I think it's just if people could see just some of the spots of the course, like really any spot on the course, it would be a destination race for so many people.

jamil (30:34.389)
And we, if we're talking about touchers, I just have to shout out and thank Matt gun for creating that race. So.

Finn (30:40.65)
Yeah. Yep. Any other, any other final thoughts on Senceman or Kawai or Ryan Hall or Keytones before we get into the UTMB Whistler discussion?

Brett Hornig (30:56.875)
Ryan did also announce last week that he's, um, he is going to do the seven marathon, seven con and seven days challenge as well. I'm, I'm just genuinely curious. Like what, what is it? Is it just more like he's going to try and finish seven, or he's going to train for and like run pretty well those races? Like, I'm curious. I'm like, are we going to see like two 30, two 40 type marathons? Or are we going to see.

four hour marathons. I'm curious.

Finn (31:31.874)
Does this qualify as an ultra given that it's a stage race and he's gonna do like a marathon a day, 140 plus miles over a week? What are your thoughts there? What's the classification?

Brett Hornig (31:43.395)
I mean, I'd say it's as hard as most ultras, but is it an ultra? No. You're not. Ryan Holley ain't getting no 50k bumper sticker from me for doing seven marathons in seven days.

Finn (31:48.335)
No, yeah.

jamil (31:56.977)
He did this back in 2017.

Brett Hornig (31:59.787)
Yeah, I thought this wasn't the first time he did it.

Finn (32:00.213)
Oh wow.

jamil (32:02.213)
Yeah. So, but I think he, I don't know, was he running that? I don't think it was running as much back then. I could be wrong. It seems like he's had a rebirth and it's, it's really exciting to follow. So I'm curious, like, do you guys, when you guys think he's going to tow the line of a, an ultra in 2024.

Brett Hornig (32:09.97)
No.

Brett Hornig (32:14.55)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (32:21.583)
I don't know. I mean, it doesn't, it seems like he's been in such a place of like competing against himself with just challenges that he wants to do. Like, maybe that I could see that totally leading into, okay, maybe I want to race some people again. But as of right now, I don't see any like inclination from him that he wants to start, you know, actively competing at the top of any running stage. Maybe if his younger brother, Chad, gives him enough shit.

about being better than him right now that'll stoke Ryan's fire a little bit.

Finn (32:55.826)
Well, I was just going to say, like, you know, let's look at his inner circle. And his brother, Chad, has been in the scene now running strong for all that has to have some influence. But I wonder if like, I mean, like just even extending an invitation, like. Hey, Ryan, you want to, you want to come give Coca-Dona a try this?

jamil (33:14.393)
Oh my gosh, that would be incredible. I don't know Ryan or I don't have any close associations with him, but maybe I should just try cold outreach and see what happens.

Brett Hornig (33:17.631)
Yeah, I mean, why not?

Finn (33:18.738)
What's the...

Finn (33:27.73)
And this is.

Brett Hornig (33:27.735)
I talked to him about shoes once.

Finn (33:31.37)
This is for anybody out there that's in the cold email space looking to find emails. There's a great Chrome plugin called WIZA that allows you to uncover any person with a LinkedIn profile's email address and you can use that plugin. If Ryan Hall has LinkedIn, if Ryan Hall has LinkedIn, I guarantee we can find his email address and we can reach out and say, bro, you run in Coca-Dona, you run in the Dona 400 next year?

Brett Hornig (33:54.955)
The Donut 401k, we're gonna have a blimp and everything.

jamil (33:58.225)
Yeah. Talk about like spiritual journeys, right? If that's what you're looking for, we got, we got it for you here.

Finn (34:05.278)
All right, moving on to maybe the topic that is at the front of the mind of most super fans in the sport. It's, uh, it's the UTMB Whistler debacle. And a couple of things I'll say upfront is there's at least somewhat, there's a somewhat fair amount of content out there. Of course, Gary now has published two blog posts on this. We'll link to them in the show notes. Brian Metzler from Trail Runner Mag published an article on, on it where he got quotes from

I believe Whistler Vale and the Iron Man folks. I just listened to a podcast earlier today, the Some Work All Play podcast, where around the 36 minute mark, David and Megan touch on the topic. I'm crossing my fingers that Gary goes on Dylan Bowman's Free Trail podcast, and we get some more elaboration on the blog posts there. But as of today, November 1st, that is, if I'm correct, all we have in terms of public information out there.

And I think, you know, we could probably spend way too much time summarizing what happened. I think we should probably just like talk to this audience as if they know what's going on. We know what's going on. We'll link to all it in the show notes. Um, Brett, starting with you, like, where do you, like, is there a question you want to start with? Is there a particular topic within this whole debacle that you want to talk about to start with? What are your thoughts?

Brett Hornig (35:23.779)
Well, I feel like I'm like Sherlock Holmes trying to uncover like figure out who murdered who and every time I go back and read things like more information keeps coming up and my timeline keeps changing because the first thing you do when you're playing your murder mysteries is we need to create a timeline and figure out who was where. And my timeline keeps changing. So I don't know if we're able to like just quickly.

go through what the most current timeline of events is with the information that we have. It sounds like, what was it, maybe February 2022, Gary announced that he was done with Wham because the kind of the barrier, or yeah, 23, February 23, because they've got the barriers to entry with the new permitting process and some of the crap that Vale was trying to make him do.

Finn (36:10.179)
23.

Brett Hornig (36:19.551)
really made it seem like they were pushing him out. Is there a date? Because he said at the end of his first blog post that he did have a call with the UTMB about a potential acquisition, but that was just for Squamish, right?

Finn (36:35.062)
Yeah, that conversation happened back in 2022 and it's protected by an NDA. So we really, unless you've had personal conversations, it's under wraps.

Brett Hornig (36:41.235)
Yeah, no. So we have no idea then if there is any other talks outside of just Squamish. Like I know it says that it's been said that was a Squamish talk, but like we don't really know if that was only a Squamish talk. I mean, did UTMB learn anything about what they can cannot do from that call that encouraged them to pursue, you know, UTMB Whistler?

So I don't know the dates, and then it seemed like, and then, so, and then most recently UTMB makes their Whistler, UTMB Whistler announcement. And this is the other thing too, that I'm kind of calling out to the public for is the current pinned comment has been edited twice on the UTMB Whistler page. And apparently from what I've heard.

But I just haven't seen like physical evidence of it yet in the form of screenshots. I'm sure they're out there that the very first comment that was pinned by UTMB Whistler said we worked with Gary Robbins and like the coastal trail mountain runners to put this race together. And then Gary commented back and was like, that's BS. You did not do that. And then, and then it got changed and then it got changed again. And now it looks like much more corporate.

Finn (37:53.07)
Wow.

Brett Hornig (37:59.295)
much more like beat around the bush. So I just want to know what it was originally said. And then also like, is it possible that UTMB did not start pursuing this race and going through everything until after February 20, 2023, so as to like legally not step on Gary's toes even though it's like a massive like

business faux pas, like I'm curious to hear your thoughts there. Like if, so as far as I know, like that seems to be about my timeline, whereas like UTMB was like, yeah, we chatted a bit about it. But then when Gary opted out, we were like, oh, well now there's no race going on here. Let's just put on a race here. That just happens to be like almost the same exact course. And we have more money to pay for all the, you know, insurance that needs to go in for this race. Like, yeah, where's like the...

Where do the thoughts go with all that in mind?

Finn (39:00.814)
What do you think Jamil?

jamil (39:03.753)
And this is a heavy one. I feel like it hits, it definitely hits home being kind of an independent race organizer. And I think that's. Yeah. The timeline I think is important. Uh, I think. Yeah. What they're saying, like, is it cra just this heavily crafted narrative? Is it, is it line up with reality? I think a lot of that's still unknown or it's a little bit hidden from the public right now, even so what we can go off of is.

What Gary said, we can go off of what was in Brian Metzler's article. Um, that's like currently what we have available to us. And we may, we may not know much more. Gary doesn't seem to want to talk about it anymore. Um, which I guess I can't blame him, but also it's a pretty important topic. I think, you know, this is really lit up the worldwide community on a level that I've never seen before it like has put, I think some of the frustrations around surrounding UTMBs.

launch into the sport to the forefront. And like the, I mean, a couple of the things maybe I want to start with that I think are just important to understand is like who owns UTMB Ironman and. Like ultimately, if you go all the way up the ladder, it's advanced publications, which is like a privately held media type entity. I think they do multi-billion dollars a year in revenue. They own like Conde Nast and.

Fogue magazine, they own like all these magazines, newspapers. I don't know that a lot of people know that. And then when you go down to what is it? World triathlon group who owns competitor group of like the rock and roll marathons and all the Ironman races. And then that's who owns like has this partnership with UTMB group and owns, I think what we've all figured out is like the North American market. So it's like the actual.

Finn (40:32.714)
Yeah.

jamil (41:01.373)
iron or UTMB world series is like this little tiny drop as part of this massive corporation. And so that's important to know that. And then also just thinking about it from like a Gary Robbins perspective, like this is one of the most passionate people in our sport. Someone who obviously completed five loops of the Barclay just over time limit.

Finn (41:08.927)
Yeah.

jamil (41:28.345)
So this is not a guy that just gives up, right? Like he doesn't just, oh, they made it a little more difficult. I'm gonna, can't do it. I'm gonna walk away from this forever. Like for him to say that, I think is, means something significant. But imagine you have a dream to put on a race, like at a place, Whistler, he probably had this dream a decade ago or more. Maybe even before he founded Coast Mountain Trail Runs and organized all these other events.

Finn (41:31.598)
Thank you.

jamil (41:57.189)
You take years to get permits developed, build relationships, start small, prove yourself, build up, build up, build up. He launches the a hundred mile at Whistler Alpine Meadows in 2019. Um, and then here we are today where like he's lost it all. And that's just for it to be swooped up by, you know, this giant entity that potentially has these more resources and connections. So it's just, it's heartbreaking. Number one. Um,

Maybe that's where I want to start with all this heartbreaking situation. We're dealing with your local passionate organizer. Uh, and then you're also dealing with, I guess, not only one, you know, multinational firm, but also Vale resorts. So that's like a whole nother can of worms, I think, to get into.

Finn (42:28.802)
Yes.

Finn (42:44.334)
And maybe just to add a little bit to that, because he did mention it in this blog post and it kind of falls in line with what we were just talking about with the Kawai 50, it's from what I gather and probably, you know, acutely, it's, it's hard to be a race director. Um, things can, can go in an instant races. Don't always make it. Gary says in his blog that, you know, he's been at this for 11 years. The first five were particularly challenging and tough and maybe filled with doubt. And

I think he might have been alluding to the fact that they were just sort of turning a corner, hitting this point of stability or profitability and settling in. And so is it 11 races that he has in total? Is it, or 10? Six. Okay. Six. So to lose, you know, 16% of your business overnight, that's, that's a lot.

jamil (43:24.201)
I think it's six, six to seven, yeah.

jamil (43:33.361)
Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, and it's, you know, they, they're definitely a small group. It's him and Jeff, his business partner. And I know that coaching is a big part of their business too. So it's not just events, but. And I know that I think they were hit harder by COVID than say, Aerovipa was. We, I think had more options than they did. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a tough thing.

Finn (44:00.086)
This is something I put down in my notes. I think it's a good additional question for us to riff on. And it's sort of like the nature of entering into a particular market or a subset of the market. And we all know that, you know, in 2023, there's tons of events in our sport. Many of them happen on the same weekend. Many of them happen kind of close together geographically. And there are...

hard choices that runners and media people and operators have to make in terms of where to put their attention, where to put their feet on the ground and run. I don't know, Brett, if you have thoughts here first, but like, when you see UTMB's intentions to have some sort of race at this time of the year, August, September, October, in the Whistler area, is there a right way to go about setting up shop there with a race or

because it's so thoroughly saturated with Gary's events and in that culture, you sort of have to look at that particular subset of the market and say, if we couldn't buy there, like we tried to in 2021, 2022, we sort of have to like leave and go somewhere else, or do you just pick another weekend? Like as a consumer, how do you see this?

Brett Hornig (45:19.535)
Well, I mean, the way I see it is the way that UTMB hasn't done it with any of their acquisitions in North America. And that's try harder to partner with the existing race director and like not just bulldoze them over and take control. I think they could have struck a deal with Gary. But like...

UTMB has no intentions of doing that. You know, like they got Speed Goat, they got Canyons, you know, they had it. They, they bought them out and like, there's, I don't think there's, I have like no issues with the race directors, you know, taking that deal, especially if you're looking for an out, like, you know, like if your company is going to close up shop, like, do you sell it or just like, take the loss, like.

Sometimes one, sometimes the other, but sure, you take it over and then it's like, was there an X number of year, like three year, five year transition out period from the current race director to the new ones by UTMB? How does that work? And just from what I've seen, we've now seen, how many years? Canyon's just had its third year of it being Canyon's by UTMB. 2021 was pretty much Chaz still putting on the race fully.

couple UTMB banners, 2022 a little bit more UTMB involvement, 2023 was like full blown, this is the UTMB race. And in my opinion, it's the quality of the experience has gone down each of the three each year since it's taken over, especially with this 2023 year being like a mild disaster out there.

Maybe, you know, I'm sure maybe you can speak to this Finn, but it sounds a little bit like Speed Goat has kind of been trending that direction as well with a couple of years under UTMB's ownership with some slight course changes where like the only reason where it seems like the course has changed is to make it a little bit easier on UTMB in terms of maybe putting together the race. Where is that like totally ruins any historical leaderboards?

Brett Hornig (47:38.803)
I feel like had they just set out to try a little bit harder to kind of keep the vibes, you know, the way they were in a similar way, like that could have helped with striking a deal with Gary of like, we will help, you know, we will, we will fund you to put on this race, like you do it. Um, you know, I guess it's.

kind of in the unique situation that Western States has with UTMB, where Craig still pretty much gets to control everything and they just get to add a little, you buy UTMB logo to a handful of things. But that sounds like that was very much a unique circumstance. I wish that wasn't and was more the norm for some of these North American races. So I don't think there's anything like Gary and UTMB could have done in terms of striking deal because like...

the way UTMV's entire business model has been set up in the US has been structured around like pushing the race directors eventually out so they can do everything the way they want to do it.

Finn (48:44.762)
Jamil, I'm assuming in at one time or another, there have been like areas of the country or parts of Arizona, Mountain West, etc., where it's been an interesting, like internal debate as to whether you want to set up shop there, put a race on there, maybe acquire a race, you know, etc., etc. Have you found that there is like a quote unquote right way to enter into a new territory and like in Brett's case, maybe partnering with an event?

doing your best to maintain the pre-existing vibes, to do something altogether different. Like, is there like a right way-esque playbook for this?

jamil (49:23.193)
I think, uh, it depends on, I guess, who you're talking about, like for us, for Aerovipa, for me, there is a right way to do it. We've acquired quite a few events over the years and we've really aimed to do that, to strike that balance of maintaining the history and the vibes of what it was. But while also seeing where we can enhance it, uh, and you know, maybe the founder would come back and say something different, but like for Havalina, for

Jerry Kilgareff, the founder of the race, come back last year for the 20th running. And it had been quite a few years since she'd seen it and she was pretty happy. I think with how, how it turned out, at least that's what she told us. So, um, I guess to your other part, like, is there a right way to do it in terms of, um, entering a new market? I think for me, that's like a contin- continual learning process. And

And maybe hopefully this is a moment for UTMB and them to, to take a step back or, or take a pause in a moment to be like, what are we doing here? Um, but yeah, I think just coming in, I think at least being mindful of who's out there already and what are they doing? And is this complimentary to what they're doing or is this, you know, going to step on someone is something to think about.

Finn (50:44.418)
Yeah, in the, like one of the big question marks in this whole situation for me is how, like in Gary's blog post, he essentially says in February of this year, so, you know, eight or nine months ago, he said he was completely done with the idea of pursuing like another permit for this area putting on WAM, like he was just done. And that it seemed pretty decisive. But then later on in the blog post, and there's a lot of details that are sort of not acknowledged, he goes on to like,

essentially communicate that he was still hopeful in some way, like holding out hope that something actually was going to turn and work in his favor. And this whole UTMB thing, what was a big surprise. If I'm UTMB, like, is there like, is there a grace period where if you are interested in that area, and you know, someone has just sort of given up their race there, you have to wait because like I'm thinking here in

In the Salt Lake area, there's a race that went on for a couple of years called the Twisted Fork 64K. It's over in Park City. Amazing race happens on the same day as Western States. The race director put on a great experience, really cool swag, great course, great aid stations, but then all of a sudden he, he stopped putting it on. It was maybe in 2021 or 2022. It's been two years now. And I mean, I'm not a race director, but I would love to see something happen there again. Uh, like.

How does UTMB play this? How does anybody that wants to take over something in an area that no longer has something proceed?

Brett Hornig (52:19.467)
Okay, wait, I got a thought before it leaves my brain. I'm still running off of a little bit of race brain, but this one's there. So you said that Gary announces that he's done trying to get permits and stuff for WAM in February of 23. So then UTMB comes in. And this is purely speculation, but like, we don't know if...

Finn (52:22.702)
Please, please.

Brett Hornig (52:47.055)
UTMB was helping Vale make it difficult for Gary to get permits. Like UTMB, well, not you, Iron Man had Iron Man Whistler for a handful of years. They know like what it takes to put on a massive event out in the Whistler area. So they might very well have already been known of like the additional barriers to entry.

And this is where the possible collusion thing comes in, where it's like, we have no idea, but it's like, is it possible that UTMB helped push out Gary knowing that he's going to fold, now we'll go in and just go through all the permitting processes the correct way? That's a question. The other thing that I'm thinking of as well is like, Gary says he's out, so then UTMB comes and swoops in. So this is the non-collusion theory.

Why if UTMB truly cares about the community, when Gary announces he's out, why doesn't UTMB reach out to Gary and say, hey, let us help you get these permits for Vale. We've dealt with them. We've done it for Ironman, Whistler. Let us help you get your race going again for 2023. Why didn't they just reach out again and be like, hey, I know.

Finn (53:58.222)
Thanks for watching!

Brett Hornig (54:08.179)
Yeah, Veil's been really difficult to work with. They suck. Blah, blah, blah. Let us help you get these permits. Let us help you get it going. Doesn't sound like that happened.

Finn (54:18.682)
So this is pure conjecture, pure, pure guess here, but I'm guessing the reason why that didn't happen has something to do with the way negotiations between UTMB and Gary went in 2021 and 2022 when they were trying to buy Squamish and strike some sort of deal there. And I'm just assuming, but I would assume that based on those conversations, they made

they made a guess or they just made an assumption that there wouldn't be a way to have a sustainable working relationship together for any future things that they did in that area. That's just a guess though.

Brett Hornig (54:56.395)
Yeah, and that's under the current UTMB playbook of how they buy races and then how they do it. It's not very much a collaborative process between like old RD like, oh, yeah, Gary, we'll bring you on as like a UTMB contractor and you can do it however you want. It's like, no, we're going to buy your race from you and then we're going to do it our way. If there was maybe a more collaborative approach that they had always done in the past, which it doesn't sound like they have, I...

I would have expected to see that when Gary announced in 2022 that he's, that Vail is not, not having, they're not doing anything good for him. U2B comes and helps like, but that didn't happen.

Finn (55:39.714)
But what happened between February of this year and October of this year that changed Gary's mind and gave him renewed hope that something positive for Wham would come out of this? And why was he surprised by the news that broke? That's just a question.

Brett Hornig (55:58.059)
Yeah. Like, was that just a, if I can't get the permits for this race, nobody can. There's no way. But then all of a sudden UTMB does, and I'm sure Gary probably doesn't know what, you know, acquiring the proper permits from Vale looks like from the UTMB standpoint, are they the same, are they the same permits? Like we don't, we can't know that.

Finn (56:24.054)
Jamil, has this ever happened for one of your races where you've had certain logistical and safety type requirements for a race and they've been changed? And I guess if and when they have changed, have the changes been warranted in something that you've been willing to meet for various reasons?

jamil (56:41.541)
Yes, I mean, all the time, like we constantly run into things like this. I don't know if it's to the same level as Gary, but it seems like I love the saying, like it's always something in this industry, whether that's a truck breaking down or some weird scenario at a race that you never foresaw coming to a permitting hoop that you have to jump through. I mean, we're permitting these events on land that we don't own. And so...

we have to work with a variety of landowners that might be a private property. So like the Crown King Scramble, we host it for a number of years, it's all good. And then someone starts actively mining on land that we pass through at mile 22. And all of a sudden we can't pass through there unless we pay an additional fee and jump through hoops. Or Cocodona, we have to hire an overnight security guard.

for a quarter mile stretch of trail at night that there's no safety issue and we're not even in the main part of the park and so we're paying thousands of dollars for what seems like a ridiculous request.

There, it just seems like there are always something and, and I can't speak to the specifics to this situation. Um, from reading what Gary posted, it seemed like he thought it was unnecessary hoops to jump through. From reading Brian Meltzer's article, it was, you know, Vale very much was serious about needing these additional boxes checked for their safety protocols. So I don't know. I don't really know what to think of it.

Finn (58:26.158)
Do you think this can be a tool that a company will use to push someone out if they see another opportunity elsewhere or for whatever reason they don't want to see a particular working relationship continue, they'll use these methods to push an organization out without sort of putting blame squarely on any particular head in the company?

jamil (58:55.505)
And I've never thought about this situation arising before. Um, I think it's super shady, of course, but yeah, like if I was veil and I, I wanted that fall premiere weekend to go to a different race organizer for whatever reason, maybe it was a bigger opportunity. Like, I guess, how do you approach that? Is that even okay for them to do? Is that their right as business owners to do it? I mean, probably is right. Like if I had to take a step back.

Finn (59:16.66)
Mm.

jamil (59:24.197)
emotionally from the situation. I don't know. I mean, it doesn't, again, it doesn't seem right to forego the relationship you had. Um, unless they had big issues with working with Gary and his team. I don't know.

Brett Hornig (59:38.739)
Yeah, it's kind of.

Finn (59:38.782)
I also want to know what were the safety issues in 2022? What prompted them to feel the need to update requirements, I'm assuming based on something that happened in the 2022 event.

jamil (59:50.653)
Yeah, again, that's something that it's not public. It seems like, but I mean, we're talking about probably some of the most experienced race directors in Canada or in the industry in North America. And I don't know if there's, I had, I didn't hear a news article about something that happened at a coast mountain trail race, like they S they seem like great well-run events, as Gary said in his followup article put on by guys that have decades of experience and. It seems like.

If there was concerns, it didn't seem like it was super clear to Gary what those were. Like they didn't do a good job of communicating exactly what they needed to find the solution forward. Whereas, you know, they were all of a sudden able to find solutions when talking to UTMB.

Brett Hornig (01:00:37.343)
Yeah, I'm not sure I buy that. Like it seems like their way of not having to say no, the same way you reach out to a contractor to say, get your floors refinished and they're like, Oh yeah, you know, it's a $5,000 job. But then they're like, well, I'll do it for $50,000. And then if so, if that person's like, sure, I'll do it for, yeah, sure, I'll pay you 50 grand. Then they're like, okay, well then I'll go refinish your floor. But really it's that they don't want to do it. And they.

Finn (01:00:56.706)
Hahaha

Brett Hornig (01:01:05.427)
want you to then just move on to someone else. Like that's what it feels like to me where they're like, oh if you want to put on this race here you got to do these things. We know you're going to say no but then if you say yes it's a win-win for us. That's kind of like when I read through everything that was kind of the first thing that came to mind because it's not like, yes Vail has a lot of money, yes they'd be on the hook for...

potentially a massive lawsuit if something happened, but it's not like they don't host any risky Athletic endeavors during the summertime Whistler is the biggest downhill bike resort in the world Like they have they do so much downhill mountain biking there like they their business insurance like all of that stuff is probably pretty rock-solid and

And I think it was Gary's blog was he was like, yeah. And like, they just approved permits for the Everesting event, like the weekend prior, which then like to play devil's advocate in my head, I was like, well, I guess what Vale was then able to do with that event is they eliminated downhill running because people just go up and then take the gondola down. So like, I guess that's safer because they don't have to run downhill. But then I was like, wait a minute. Their entire summertime business is all downhill. Like, yes. And it's like.

jamil (01:02:26.013)
skiing and downhill mountain biking. Yeah, like that does, none of that adds up. None of that adds up.

Brett Hornig (01:02:30.323)
No, so then I was like, okay, what about the safety thing? And I was like, is there some part of this course that I don't know about where I have to like put on a rock climbing harness and rappel down like a thousand foot cliff? I don't think so. Do I have to like grab my paraglider and jump somewhere? Like it didn't really seem, I don't remember any mega dangerous parts of the course like that. So that whole like new, like that was interesting to me. I thought that was interesting.

Finn (01:02:36.654)
Thank you.

jamil (01:02:55.561)
I mean, you get up high and there's like, you're exposed to weather up on the top parts, but you know, that's why there's a thing like mandatory gear.

Brett Hornig (01:03:04.139)
Yeah, totally. And like that's why.

jamil (01:03:05.373)
And a, and aid stations and medical and all that kind of stuff. Like, and that is the risk that we take in the sport. And like, let's say you have that, you got to have those plan B's as a race director, and I guarantee you that they did, like, if there is a huge snow storm or something that's coming in, you might have an altered course or. Even additional requirements.

Brett Hornig (01:03:25.931)
And like, it's called a liability waiver, people. Like, you just sign that, and then if something happens to the runner out there, like, that doesn't fall under, that's under the not my problem umbrella.

Finn (01:03:39.374)
Couple things to say, and I want to continue this conversation, but Jamil, I know you're super busy running one of the biggest events companies in our sport, so if you have to go anytime, let us know and Brett, you and I can keep going if you got time. And also, I don't think we're going to get to every single important talking point on this issue. Hopefully, this particular conversation serves as one of many valuable ones as this whole thing plays out. One other question that I wanted to make sure we asked while Jamil was still here is sort of this ongoing debate in the community as to whether...

Brett Hornig (01:04:01.597)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (01:04:08.738)
There is room in the sport for both grassroots events slash local regional events and these more corporate franchise types events. Iron Man has been on the record publicly saying we think there is room for both worlds. Now it's obviously a question as to whether their language matches their actions on the ground. But Jamil, I wanted to throw this to you. Maybe like first, like philosophically, do you think there can and should be room for both?

jamil (01:04:38.693)
And good question. I think, I mean, I would sure hope that there's always room for the grassroots community style events. I mean, that to me is the heart and soul of the sport. And I think we need to do everything we can to protect those events. And this is like, I think what we don't want is the replacement of these events, especially not by choice of the people that started these events. Like you said before, Brett, like speed goat deciding to

jamil (01:05:10.45)
that's a decision Carl made and it was right for him and, um, setting himself up for retirement. And, you know, we can't blame that in any way, but also, you know, you as the consumer, as the runner out there, just be aware that, you know, the experience is going to be different than what it was. It's probably just going to be a, at some point, it will be a completely different race than it was when Carl was at the helm. And so just understand what you're getting and

I do think it's important to support the local events. I think there's an experience you can get at one of those races, but it's going to be different than something you get at, at a Gary Robbins race or, or what Carl built before.

Brett Hornig (01:05:53.023)
Yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, I was talking to a friend. Oh, I don't know if they would, I'll leave their name out of it. And we could always throw their name in later if whatever, but anyway, there.

in talking about like Iron Man saying there's like room for everyone. If there was room for everyone, like wouldn't they have kept their old qualification process for UTMB where all these races could just register to be part of the UTMB, I forget what it was called before, where then like you know the Chuck-a-Nut 50k you got two points for...

Havalina 100, you got six points for, and people could go to all their grassroots style races locally around them and then still make it possible to run UTMB, whereas right now it takes the average person 11 stones to get chosen in the lottery. That means they have to do two to three UTMB events a year. Like just the whole qualification process for the runners.

that UTMB has changed is it's forcing out the small races because it's forcing all the runners who if you want to do UTMB you have to then schedule most of the rest of your year around our races. Oh, oh no, like all of our UTMB races are in Europe. I got an idea. We'll make it way more inclusive by having lots of UTMB races in the US that ultimately ends up pushing down a lot of the smaller.

races because now like they make it sound like now there's room for everyone in the world to come to Chamonix because now you can run RUTMB races everywhere. It's like that system right there tells enough for me about how they feel about other smaller races. What do you think?

jamil (01:07:52.817)
Yeah. I mean, I agree with you totally there. Like when you put it that way, I mean, can we look, yeah. I mean, can you look to what they did in the sport of triathlon to kind of predict the future of what's going to happen? I mean, are there still independent triathlons out there? Did they just gobble most of them up? And did that just become the sport that people did? I don't know.

Brett Hornig (01:07:57.335)
I know, I had never really thought of it like that.

Brett Hornig (01:08:17.363)
Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's just a turkey try. Like those are the only ones left is third Thursday in November, except they're not triathlons or just road races. That's all that we got left.

Finn (01:08:32.478)
I wish I knew more about the history of triathlons and how sort of the evolution towards Ironman happened but I would be curious to know was there as vigorous a backlash like we're seeing now with the UTMB Whistler situation in the triathlon community when all of this was going on whatever it was 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

Brett Hornig (01:08:52.983)
Well, I guess the question I have that I maybe do either of you know the answers. Did Ironman invent the Ironman distance of the like the long swim, the hundred mile bike in the marathon? Cause there was always the sprint try and like the, the both of them were very short and then now there's this long one that's called the Ironman distance. Did they invent that? Like, did they create that? Cause that's different than they, they didn't create a 100 K trail race up in Whistler. They didn't create.

You know, they didn't create trail racing.

jamil (01:09:26.461)
Just going from my memory, I believe they, like the original Iron Man was that distance, but then a lot of independent races popped up with a similar distance, but I could be totally wrong on that.

Brett Hornig (01:09:38.443)
Yeah, I'm not well-versed at all with the history of the sport of the Ironman distance.

jamil (01:09:40.081)
Yeah. But I do think I've heard some stories and we should have probably been way more educated on this, but like some stories of them, just the way that they went about acquiring that I think is maybe reminiscent of some of the stuff that's happening now here could be applicable, might be worth a follow-up.

Finn (01:09:59.394)
So generally, starting with you, Britt, do you think this is sort of an either or world where it's like we either go totally grassroots or we go totally corporate, or is there a possibility for coexistence?

Brett Hornig (01:10:15.475)
I think there is possibility for coexistence, but not in the current way that UTMB is trying to do things. And I think if we just continue to then sign up for the races and show, prove to UTMB that they can do whatever they want, and we're still going to sign up for the races and they don't have to change anything, it's only going to get worse, but I feel like this whole like last, like 2023 probably going forward.

is an opportunity for people to speak with their dollars and show like that they want UTMB to go about it a little bit different way. And I'm speaking mostly with UTMB in North America. I don't know if this Whistler thing is going to change anything over in Europe. I mean, maybe it could if, you know, everyone decides we're not actually racing UTMB and Chamonix. I still don't know if I see that happening because of this, but

maybe this announcement for UTMB Whistler could help change the way UTMB operates as a business in North America because like in my opinion right now I don't think they've gone about it in the correct way in North America.

Finn (01:11:36.75)
What do you think, Jamil?

jamil (01:11:39.965)
Can you repeat the question?

Finn (01:11:42.078)
whether this is an either or scenario where it's either we go all in on grassroots or all in on the corporate model, or if you do still think in some way, shape or form, there can be a coexistence.

jamil (01:11:58.853)
I mean, I don't think we should go all in on the corporate model. That's for sure. Um, but yeah, I guess it's a matter of.

I don't know. I don't know how to answer this one to be honest.

Finn (01:12:12.815)
Well, I'll add one thing and I think it's really interesting in the Ironman world. If you look at what the professional triathlon organization is doing, it's a slightly different example but they basically made the assessment that it is impossible to build a professional model of the sport based on a participation based business model where the goal of most of these pre-existing race organizations is to just like get as many participants to the start line as possible.

So they built that offshoot, totally focused on creating the best possible product. We have the highest density of competition, broadcast deals, creating casual fans, stuff like that. I definitely think if we're talking pure participation model, I think coexistence is possible. If we're talking about like participation in professional, I think we have to see something similar that's taking shape in triathlon take place in trail.

Brett Hornig (01:13:05.775)
Hmm, like a professional trail running association. Hmm.

Finn (01:13:13.284)
The PTA, the Parent Teachers Association. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So, Jamil, how are you doing on time? Do you have a couple minutes? We have time for one more question.

jamil (01:13:15.821)
Hahaha.

jamil (01:13:24.789)
Oh, I'm no, I'm fine on time right now. Yeah.

Finn (01:13:28.686)
Okay, what is the cost of this blunder for you, Tim? Are they gonna pay a price for this? Starting with you, are they gonna pay a price for this? Are they gonna walk away scot-free? Are we gonna forget about this in three days when it's no longer driving clicks to the single track podcast?

Brett Hornig (01:13:45.807)
I think I'm very curious. I would love to be a fly on the wall for UTMB Whistler this year. And it's just see what the vibes and the experience is like. My way to early prediction is I feel like the race is going to be a disaster. And the reason for that is like,

So many of these North American trail races are heavily dependent on the local community and volunteers who want to be out, they want to help mark the course, they want to volunteer, they want to just give back and help their race director put on a really great event. I just don't see how UTMB Whistler is going to get the number of people needed to

successfully put on an event like this. And that comes down to like, you can't hire, it's hard to just hire someone to come in and mark the course if they don't know where they are in the first place. I feel like we saw that at Canyons this year. People got lost all over the place and clearly, whoever was marking the course was not familiar with the junctions. And when you're approaching it from here, you know that you should mark this side, that side, whatever. And like, it...

Yeah, like those little details that come through with success via local volunteer help. I just don't know if they're going to get that. And then that makes putting on a mountain race way more difficult.

Finn (01:15:21.17)
Is UTMB paying a price for this, Jermil?

jamil (01:15:24.101)
I think so. Uh, I think, yeah, piggybacking off what Brett said there. I can't imagine anyone who's been to a coast mountain trail run to a Gary Robbins race or has affiliation with Gary. Like we'll not support this event. We'll not show up at this event and we'll instead show up to Gary's event, which he announced he's going to be hosting a competing event the same weekend. So I think.

It is a, it is a time to make a statement here that, you know, what they did was not okay in the context of the sport and like what's, what's right to do in the sport. I think, you know, they had an opportunity when they saw Gary's post about not pursuing permits. I think Finn, you, you obviously made a great point about maybe there any sort of working relationship breaking down, but I still think, I still think reaching out.

in some way, at least have the proceeds that you tried would have gone a long ways in that, um, without doing that and just kind of swooping in, I think. You know, they, they obviously got blindsided. It looks like a bit here, but I think they, I think at least for this race, they'll, they'll pay a price.

Finn (01:16:42.314)
You know, I...

Finn (01:16:47.502)
I'll take the other side. I don't think that they're gonna pay a price. At least I don't think the entire brand is gonna take a price because so much of the brand exists outside of North America. And it, at least now, again, another, oh, another thing I forgot to say. That I believe earlier this week, according to Corrine Malcolm, there was a professional trail runners association meeting that group of athletes, which represents the entirety of the globe, is gonna come out with some sort of statement on this. So, you know, holding, you know, crossing our fingers for that. But,

In lieu of that coming out, I just, I think these new cycles and even in trail running are moving so fast, it's going to be pushed under the rug at some point. The one realization I had from this is that trail running is not immune to the forces of status and influence. And you look at somebody like Gary, they totally messed with the wrong guy. He's for all the right reasons, one of the most beloved, respected people in the sport as a race director, as an athlete, et cetera.

If I was UTMB, and I think we saw someone say something to this effect in the Discord channel, I am scrolling through the list of RDs that I have acquired races from. So like Speed Goat, like Canyons, like Grindstone. And I'm finding the person among that group that has the most amount of influence. And I'm essentially putting them into some sort of PR position, sort of waving the banner for North America UTMB.

Maybe Carl Meltzer. I know that Carl Meltzer is going into retirement, but if there can be a more visible face representing North America for them to grow their brand, to get into more good graces with the community, I think UTMB should try influencer marketing. Like we've...

jamil (01:18:29.337)
Well, I think I have something to say to that. I mean, I think it goes a step above that. They clearly don't have their fingers on the pulse of what's happening here. Like they have no one, like they didn't run this decision by anyone who's in the core sport. If you asked Karl Meltzer or any of these other race directors, hey, is this a good idea? Like Gary Robbins announced he can't get WAM permits. We're gonna go in and we're gonna get that and we're gonna make the same race.

Finn (01:18:39.213)
Yeah.

jamil (01:18:57.441)
And we'll probably announce it right around when his race would have taken place this year, which he could get permits for, and we're going to announce it for 2024 good idea. Like they didn't run it by anyone. Like no one would think that's a good idea ever. They would said that's awful of you to do that.

Finn (01:19:10.251)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:19:10.991)
That's a good point.

Finn (01:19:12.907)
Really good point.

Brett Hornig (01:19:18.687)
Yeah, that's very true. Like, yeah, you're right. Like is, is very tone deaf of a move.

jamil (01:19:26.589)
They clearly have no advisory panel whatsoever.

Brett Hornig (01:19:30.222)
No.

Finn (01:19:31.65)
So I think we need to see, I shouldn't say we, they might consider implementing something like that in the coming days, if not weeks and months for this region and hopefully for other regions as well.

Brett Hornig (01:19:45.496)
You think?

jamil (01:19:45.681)
I don't disagree with you though. I think if they did have, you know, some maybe beloved race director that could be in that position, you know, I don't know, are these race directors taking the deal where like Brett was saying, it's a three to five year, you're kind of slowly passing the torch over time to the point that, you know, at the end of the contract, you're just phased out. Or I know in the case of, I'm just speaking to,

my experience on the Ultra Trail World Tour, when Iron Man purchased Tarahueira and Ultra Trail Australia, I met Dave, ah, shoot, this guy Dave, who was kind of ahead of Iron Man. I believe he joined Iron Man because his event got acquired by Iron Man and he went to work for them, like for corporate, and eventually brought trail running into the mix, so.

You know, are they going to get like an Aqua hire out of one of these races? Like you said, is it going to be Chas or whoever? Like, are they going to take a larger role and lead all of North America? Because, and, and weigh in on those or make those decisions, you know, clearly whoever's making the decisions, obviously, yeah, Whistler's a great market. It would be a great race to have, you know, on their calendar, but the way they went about it, not good.

Finn (01:21:11.378)
Yeah, if you're a multi, to your point, if you are a multinational corporation and you're thinking about moving into a new region, one of the first things that you do, at least just based on what I've seen in the companies I've worked for in the past, you're spending a lot of time way in advance, understanding the local customs, understanding the local people, figuring out where the differences in your business model are, how people operate, how things are negotiated, how deals are struck.

And yeah, maybe not too much evidence of that here. Again, could be wrong, but, um, the fact finding well ahead of time, understanding the landscape, mapping it all out. Um, didn't seem to, it didn't seem to happen. And how about, how about to the, to the marquee event in Chamonix is, is it, do you got, do either of you see any cost there, any like, we're already seeing, you know, Jim Walmsley on Strava put out that fascinating Strava post saying, so where we race in next year, as if it's all up in question.

Do we see any costs here?

Brett Hornig (01:22:09.767)
Yeah, I mean, until UTMB like has so few people in the lottery that they don't fill out the race, they're not hurting at all because of this decision. I mean, if it's I mean, I guess it would be interesting if there was no competitive elite field at UTMB with the race still sell out. Would people still do it or?

Are people all going to UTMB because all the pros are also there? I mean, I know that's a nice perk, but is that the only reason? Or are there people who are like sick? There's 200 less elites that increases my chances of getting pulled in the lottery because the lottery is very, cause I want to go run the loop. I don't know the answer to that question. Like, so I don't, I don't know if that would be interesting to hear what people think, whether elites.

not being at UTMB affects UTMB's participation as a whole.

jamil (01:23:11.681)
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't think so. I think people want to go because it's an incredible loop and it's an incredible race, you know, just to get that experience, I think is the main driver. I think the competitive field helps and it's certainly helped get the storyline out about the event, but I don't know, maybe, maybe the newer people into the sport think differently than I do. I've been, been here for too long, probably.

Brett Hornig (01:23:35.051)
You like adventures too much, Jamil.

jamil (01:23:36.951)
Yeah.

Finn (01:23:38.974)
And I apologize, but going back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier, and Jamil, I don't want to put you on the spot, but to the extent that you're able to comment on this, I have to imagine that at some point over the last five to 10 years with races that are special, like Black Canyon and Javelina, maybe you've been approached by organizations like Iron Man, like Ultra Trail World Tour to be a part. Are you able to say the reasons why?

it wasn't a good fit for you or why you felt like it just wouldn't be a good long-term decision.

jamil (01:24:13.825)
Maybe I'm just too much of a control freak. I don't know. Um, I don't know. I mean, I'm maybe if I was at a different stage in my career, I would think differently.

jamil (01:24:25.553)
But I feel like...

jamil (01:24:29.469)
There's no motivation for me for our premiere events to join like a giant, huge multinational corporation. I feel like what you're potentially seeing, and this is firsthand experience, what I'm hearing from you, Brett, or maybe from others, you know, things change at some of these events when they. You know, join that sort of machine. And I mean, frankly, I don't want that to happen to some of my premier races. And.

I feel like we're just still building them. We're still building our organization and what we're trying to do. And I very much at least want to believe that we try and do things with the broader sport in mind of what's good for the sport, the community, all the stakeholders, it's not just, you know, my bottom line that matters. It's, it's really a lot more than that.

Finn (01:25:24.45)
I want to make sure we get to the Javelina recap, but I also want to make sure if there's anything particularly outstanding that we want to cover about this topic, we say it here and then move on. Again, acknowledging that there are parts of this debate that we have not covered and won't have the time to cover. Brett, is there anything else you want to say on this topic before we pivot?

Brett Hornig (01:25:45.716)
Just looking through the pre-show notes. I mean, I think...

Brett Hornig (01:25:54.479)
That's all I have to say about that.

jamil (01:25:58.105)
I mean, vote with your registration dollars, I guess, if you, if you believe in something, then do that. And I guess, you know, at the end of the day, like I am a, an entrepreneur or business person as well. And I understand like there's a lot of different reasons that people do different things and ultimately we'll see, I guess, what the effect is, you know, a year from now on what people decide to do. So I just hope Gary receives a lot of support out of this because it just feels like he was wronged.

in a real bad way in this situation. Like I can't imagine losing. One of your most premier races outside of your control and having like, I mean, he's getting zero compensation for this at all.

Brett Hornig (01:26:41.629)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (01:26:43.13)
Maybe the last thing I'll say is that, yeah, in terms of like, who's right, who's wrong, I think I do at this point in time with the facts available fall into the Gary camp. The only thing that, again, based on the facts that we have right now that I wish Gary had done was make himself more available to the media, to any media.

responding to the quote for Trail Runner magazine. Hopefully he goes on Dylan's podcast. Maybe for many reasons he doesn't wanna go to Trail Runner and there's another more neutral outlet go there. I do wish he made himself available for follow-up because I generally don't think the best course of action is controlling the narrative in these situations when there are so many accusations that have been made

in sort of damages to various brands. I think Gary's right, but I do wish there was hopefully more openness there. But the other thing I'll say, and hopefully this is more positive, he is gonna launch a competitor event in 2024. I wanna cover it with Single Track. I think it'd be super fun to go up there and do athlete interviews and make some cool reels or photos or a movie out of the event.

Brett Hornig (01:28:09.789)
Mm-hmm. Maybe a live stream. Hm.

Finn (01:28:11.978)
Maybe a live stream. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I think maybe the silver lining in all of this is because of the terrible events that went down, there may actually be an event that rises from the ashes that could even be an upgrade over what we had in the previous years from many angles. So there could be a happy ending here.

jamil (01:28:35.381)
I mean, that's a great point. I think, um, you know, I've, I've only been to one of Gary's races, which was Whistler Alpine Meadows, a hundred miler, and they are special races. I mean, the amount of time, attention and care that Gary and his team put in, the amount that they give back to the everyday runner. I remember we're sitting at, at the finish line in the park and, um, actually, no, I went up twice because I went up to cover it, uh, a different time for Solomon. But.

You know, they're doing raffles all day long at the finish line. Like it's just, it's really cool stuff. He hugs every finisher. It's just, it's great stuff, great community. So I think you're right. I think whatever he creates, it's going to get a lot of support and a lot of love.

Finn (01:29:20.254)
I got to say one more thing because I actually think this is this is a great rallying point for any race and it was the economic impact study that Wham did for the Whistler area. And among many other things, they generated $1.3 million in out of town spending in the area. And I have always wondered what is the local area economic benefit like for example, for Javelina, how much business does it drive to like the Fountain Hills, Arizona area stuff like that and

Here are some pretty hard numbers where even, you know, a quote unquote grassroots race, it kind of swings a heavy hammer of impact in the local business scene, which is pretty cool. And Vail said that a lot of things were riding on this and they went silent when, you know, allegedly he presented them with the numbers. So that's one more thing I wanted to make sure we brought in there. That's super cool.

jamil (01:30:09.929)
for sure.

Finn (01:30:12.358)
All right, Havalina100 recap. Uh, Brett, I know you spent a lot of time on the live stream. Jamil, you ran the race and did a bunch around the live show among other things. I think the two, the two biggest new things I noticed were the Jumbotron viewing experience on the ground. And then one of the coolest live stream sets of all time, like outside the Phoenix headquarters, you brought the live stream set to the race start line. Um, talk about that Jamil.

jamil (01:30:40.429)
Yeah, we're always looking to up the game. And I've dreamed since the very first live stream in Black Canyon, 2021, like I wanted a Jumbotron, like a big screen on site. And so we, yeah, we finally, you know, we had to use a little bit, dip into the blimp fund a little bit, but we actually, we actually, we were able to acquire a screen, so we have that now and, you know.

Brett Hornig (01:30:59.992)
I'll allow it.

jamil (01:31:07.337)
Just putting that out there. If you need a screen at your race, call me up. We have a screen, we'll travel.

Brett Hornig (01:31:15.495)
If there is a place where people congregate in like a big grass field, right around sunset, as they're awaiting the leaders of the race to come into the vicinity and there's nothing for people to do, maybe they could be watching the live stream on a big Jumbotron.

jamil (01:31:33.125)
Maybe at Placer High School, I don't know.

Brett Hornig (01:31:36.259)
Go Hill Men.

Finn (01:31:37.639)
Rhymes with cestern weights.

jamil (01:31:43.273)
Yeah. And then the set on site, I'm trying to think, well, we definitely wanted to have on an onsite set to do some content locally. And a couple of weeks before the race, as we're kind of figuring out our internet capabilities, we kind of had to make the call, like, are we going to do a split studio or are we just going to go all in on the set on site? And in hindsight, I'm glad we did it.

It was incredible to have the commentators could just be there. They could experience the race. They didn't have to be locked away, you know, in the room that I'm in right now, 45 minutes to an hour away and drive back and forth and all that stuff. So, but as you guys saw, like it provided these moments that are just impossible otherwise, like Michael Versteeg hopping on Dylan Bowman's lap and announcing he's going to drop from the race. There were probably a lot of other moments that I, that I missed.

Brett Hornig (01:32:39.387)
Yeah, I think that was one of the most special parts of the lives. Like I, after I called it, after three laps, I walked over there and Matt was like, he had just gone, I think he just got up to go pee because he was commentating with Debo and like Bryce was producing and like Matt got up and I was just like, Bryce, can I, can I take that spot? And the Bryce was like, do it. So then I just went and sat down and called the race with Debo for like 45 minutes and we had a great chat and like, that's not possible if it's from Phoenix, you know? Um, and then.

And you know, Heather Jackson, after she won the race, was able to walk right down to the studio and come up and do a post-race interview right after the race. Yeah, like I forget who had mentioned maybe it was Chris Warden, but he's like a college game day vibes, like mad college game day vibes with people just being able to run behind the set and be like, I love the live stream. Like I thought that was.

That was so cool because people knew like over the course of the race, more and more people figured out that the race was being streamed live from that corner as soon as you go through the big white tent. So then more and more people kept yelling at it as you went through. And I thought that was one of the coolest things ever.

jamil (01:33:53.353)
I'm sorry.

Finn (01:33:58.43)
I'm wondering about the portability of this set, like what the setup and breakdown time is, because if you think about a race like Cocodona, there are so many cool scenes along that route. You could have, you know, a live stream studio in Jerome, you could have one in Sedona, you could have one at the finish line like we had last year in Flag. Is that a possibility, this idea of like porting the set as a longer race like Cocodona is going on?

jamil (01:34:26.621)
I think anything's possible and it seems like something we should look into. Um, the full set is a definitely a bit of work. You've got like a 20 by 20 tent. You've got a 12 by 16 foot stage, and then you have all the cameras and equipment and gear. So it's not something I'd want to set up and break down, you know, daily, but I think we could also probably have a smaller version that maybe could operate out of a 10 by 10 pop-up.

and just have a single camera that could be ported into like the larger broadcast that's still being carried from somewhere else. I think that's a very real possibility. And to me, I love the couch as well. Like having that couch for almost anyone to pop on and pop into, I think is just so cool. It's not something, at least as of yet, that you're gonna see on a UTMB broadcast. I mean, Western States would be kind of sweet.

I know they do bring on runners up onto the set, but having just having that couch, the couch vibes, the lounge vibes are just sweet. Love it.

Brett Hornig (01:35:34.699)
Yeah, definitely all for the couch vibes. I mean, they were hugely successful at Hard Rock as well.

jamil (01:35:41.501)
Definitely.

Finn (01:35:43.394)
Brett, you said you had a story that you wanted to make sure we told on this long run archives episode. Is this a good time to recount it?

Brett Hornig (01:35:50.643)
Oh yeah, sure. It's my favorite moment from the race. So I'm on lap three. My knee had just started to blow up on me. I may be a mile, two miles out from Jackass Junction. And it's still slightly uphill, but there's little rollers and dips and...

Finn (01:36:09.495)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:36:13.435)
I come over one of the rollers and I see a guy standing there on the trail looking for cell serves and I see another person lying across the trail and it's on a little dip and the trail is pretty dished out. I was kind of walk jogging up to it and I'm like, oh dude, that's Jamil.

Oh shoot, like there must be like some sort of emergency. So I'm going up to them and I'm thinking, all right, if, if Jim DeMille needs me to run like as fast as I can to Jackass, like my knee has that in me. I was like, I got one more good mile in me. So I run up to Jim Mill. I step up onto the side of the trail. And then as soon as I do that, both my feet just fly out from under me because it just was like marbles and both my feet fly out from under me.

Finn (01:36:34.99)
Thanks for watching!

jamil (01:36:45.612)
uh

Brett Hornig (01:36:58.679)
both my hamstrings cramp up. I'm on the ground just looking up at Jamil. I look over at the guy who's also lying on the trail next to me and he looks over and he just goes, that's what I did.

jamil (01:37:10.985)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Finn (01:37:11.31)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Brett Hornig (01:37:15.775)
And then Jamil's looking down and he's like, Brett, what the hell are you doing? And I was like, you got it. I was going to ask if you need help, but now I need help. Help me up. I just, I was like, I just biffed it. I got 60 seconds of good running now that the adrenaline's flowing. But like, as soon as that guy leaned over me, he was like, that's what I did. That's how I knew I needed to get out of there. So then I just booked it and started spraying. Cause you said you had already, medical had already been notified, but it sounded like he like stepped off the side of the trail, slipped.

jamil (01:37:24.198)
I know.

Brett Hornig (01:37:45.943)
blew out his calf and then like his legs just started seizing up and like, just, it was like a scene from a movie for him to just be lying there and he looks over. That's what I did. It was like hands down the highlight of the race and like, I'm so glad that I got to share that moment with you, Jamil.

jamil (01:38:02.809)
It was like turning into a runner pile up real quick there. We had people cramping up all over the place.

Brett Hornig (01:38:07.827)
I know. And that was, yeah, that was not even halfway through the race.

Finn (01:38:13.81)
Awesome. Yeah. Were you in the middle of your own lap? Because you ran the race, were you in the middle of your own lap and you happened upon this runner?

Brett Hornig (01:38:14.686)
Yeah.

jamil (01:38:25.445)
Yeah, I was, I think I was still on lap two at that point in time, but yeah, I came upon this guy, he was just lying across the trail. There was like one or two runners attending to him and yeah, like in a normal race, I would definitely want to check and make sure that he's okay. Um, but as the race organizer, it's like, I can't leave this guy out here. Like I have to make sure that I attend to him. And certainly I didn't want other runners to have to sacrifice their race to stay with him. So, um,

Was able to contact medical at Jackass and I mean, I had my own team out there too. So medics were dispatched, um, took him maybe 25 minutes for them to walk back to our location. Uh, ultimately, yeah, he got checked out. We started, he had to walk it into Jackass, but I helped walk him in about halfway in. So, yep, ultimately he got there.

Brett Hornig (01:39:19.983)
Good. Can we talk, Jamil, can we talk about your race a bit? Because, I mean, when I was talking to Matt after my day was done, he was like, Jamil didn't decide to run the race until Friday night, and he didn't even bring running shoes here. So, like, what's, how does that happen? Is that how you do things?

Finn (01:39:20.182)
Awesome. Well, oh yeah.

jamil (01:39:24.361)
if you want.

jamil (01:39:45.821)
Sometimes, yeah. I mean, ultimately I've kind of just taken a year off from ultra running more or less. I think with how busy we've been and just maybe lack of motivation, but.

I've been applying to Western States now for like seven years. Again, I ran it in 2010. And so I realized, I think a couple of months ago, Hey, I don't have a Western States qualifier and I'm kind of running out of time. And I was looking at the list of events and just to see if I could get out of town and it was becoming pretty clear that have Alina a hundred might be my option. So I did tell my team several weeks out that there's a possibility I'll run.

But I was still waffling all the way up until the night before. If I should even tow the line, just the, I mean, these live streams, they get so stressful for me, just making sure that every detail is dialed and feeling like I can't get away. But you know, my team had my back and said I should go do it. So ultimately decided to do it. Yeah. I mean, it was maybe 10 or 11 PM and I did have to go run home and grab some shoes real quick.

Brett Hornig (01:40:54.391)
Which was how far overdrive? Ha ha.

jamil (01:40:55.741)
It's like 45-minute drive.

Finn (01:41:00.394)
I'm not sure a lot of people in the audience know how good of a runner you are and can be. Like, you know, I recall, I think it was the 2013 Hard Rock where you ran one of the fastest 75 miles of that course of all time and it was mostly a great day. Do you ever have those moments where you do want to rededicate and like refocus for a race like Hard Rock or Barclay? And is it actually a possibility, given how sophisticated Aerovipa is now from a business

Is that a possibility? Could you go on sabbatical, for example, and train like that?

jamil (01:41:37.833)
Great question. I probably need to stop taking on new things, number one. But yeah, I think it's possible. And I think I probably should do that in 2024, is just take time for myself and dedicate to train for something. So I think it's a real possibility and I definitely have a motivation for that. I'd love to do that. I mean, you can see like my brother definitely trains properly and you can see.

what he's been able to do. So I think there's a possibility that I could definitely have some performances left in me. So I guess we'll see how lottery season goes in about a month's time.

Finn (01:42:20.014)
Do you think you would do a lot more like V-logs or vlogs around it too? It's V-log. I'm dying on this hill. I'm ready to die on this hill.

jamil (01:42:26.965)
Which is it?

Brett Hornig (01:42:28.604)
Yeah, what? What is this?

jamil (01:42:36.727)
I don't know. I mean, part of me, from a business perspective, it would obviously be really smart to do that. From a personal perspective, it's extra effort and it's extra putting yourself out there and it takes extra time. So part of me wants to just go monk mode and go private and just like train and just show up and maybe turn some heads.

But then part of me also thinks like it could be valuable to share some of that along the journey as well. So I'm kind of torn, honestly.

Finn (01:43:13.11)
Cool. I'm going to run through just a couple highlights from the race here, and then we can go into some more specific topics. So entire men's podium last weekend goes under 13 hours. There's a new course record from John Ray, super impressive. John Ray and Blake Slott and Grand Head into Western states with the golden tickets. On the women's side, Heather Jackson and Ragna Dibots are going to Western states. Heather ran the second fastest time in race history. I think what's super impressive to me on the men's side was just how fast.

Those top three ran the fourth lap, which I feel like is a very pivotal lap to sort of stay in it, to stay in contention. I think Blake, Ryan and John ran the second, third and fourth fastest fourth laps of all time. So that's mile like 60 ish to 80 ish of the race kind of pivotal. Um, in the a hundred K Raj Patel, I think is his last name set a 16 minute course record in the a hundred K in a Cassius also set a course record on the women's side. Um,

Leah pointed out that Raj thought javelina is quote so technical

I thought that was hilarious. Um, but that's that. I think we can take that wherever we want. The first thing I want to talk about is if we can this, I don't want to say controversy, but at least one person, uh, in the alternate community, uh, has. Put into question, uh, Blake Slat and Grin's use of pacers on that last lap, specifically Joe McConaughey, who had earlier been on the start line of the race, hopping in to help him finish that last lap.

Most people, if not everyone that I've talked to, has said that this is like a nothing burger, that it was just a good moment in the sport and that it made sense, but maybe there's information I'm missing. Brett, what are your thoughts here?

Brett Hornig (01:45:01.175)
Well, there's no way that was premeditated. I think that would be the big key factor. Like looking, so Joe McConaughey coaches Blake. If I am out there running a race, like say Cole Watson's running Javelina and I'm also running Javelina and I start blowing up and I see Cole having like the day of his life and it's Cole's debut hundred, like, of course, just the adrenaline that kicks in even mid blow up, that's going to, that's going to get me going.

to go run with them for at least a few miles just out of pure excitement and stoke out of like a friend. There's no way like those two guys, they're just way too nice of people to be like, okay, if one of us blows up, hang out in the med station for an hour until you get lapped and then I'll pace you as long as possible. Like I just don't see that holding up in court in pace court at all. And like

We had kind of talked about this offline a little bit too. Like it's a lapped course. How do you police this? How does this work? Like if you get lapped by a runner, you're now not allowed to run with said runner ever. You're allowed to have pacers on lap five. Is someone who's in the race, but not on the same lap as you.

Are they a pacer or are they just using you and your other pacer? You just happen to know them. It's like, there's just too many things that make this look like intentional. Like there's too many things that make it look unintentional in my eyes, at least.

Finn (01:46:44.526)
What do you think, Jamil?

jamil (01:46:46.665)
Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of those things where it's like, I never saw a situation like this coming. So obviously we want to take a full look at it and I'm still waiting to hear back on, on some of our team members. We obviously want to investigate, you know, what happened out there and, but I do think it is, it is challenging and, you know, do I want to set a precedent or make a rule that's like you can't.

You can't run with someone not on your lap. Like that doesn't really seem like the spirit of have Alina a hundred. It's supposed to be a fun race. Of course, like someone getting some sort of an unfair advantage. I think we have to weigh that in and we have to look at that and. And think about that. And maybe there is something that says, like, if, if pacer, if pacing isn't allowed yet, you can't like provide that if you're on a different lap. But it would be, I don't want people having to like,

Hey, what lap are you on? Am I allowed to run with you this next mile? Like, I don't think that that's like a good way forward for the race or for the event. I think, like Brett said, it doesn't seem to be intentional. It seems to be, um, something that was like an organic thing that happened, but certainly we're still going to look into it and just kind of take a look at it and get some feedback.

Brett Hornig (01:48:07.283)
And I guess to play devil's advocate with what I just said, like it said, it seemed unintentional, but did it help Blake at the end? I say yes, because I mean, I took a pretty deep dive at like the Strava flybys and you can see Joe's, Ryan Montgomery's, Blake Slattinger, you can see all of their runs and you can overlay them and you can play the whole race virtually and like to me, I, maybe I could zoom in further and like get out my calipers and take some measurements, but

from Jackass to Rattlesnake, which is 8 station 2 to 3 of the course, it appears to me that Ryan is starting to pull away from Blake at that section and then as soon as Blake picks goes through Rattlesnake, still behind Ryan, Joe leaves Rattlesnake with Blake, all of a sudden they bridge the gap in like a mile and a half.

Finn (01:49:01.698)
In terms of what's at stake here, and Brett, that's a really good point. In terms of what's at stake here, the Golden Ticket allotment would not have changed because Blake and Ryan were both significantly far ahead of Dan Green and forth. Ryan, of course, already has a spot in Western States next year, having finished inside the top 10. So it's not like this would have dramatically changed who was going to Western States from a Golden Ticket standpoint. The only issue...

Brett Hornig (01:49:05.271)
Like it's just interesting.

Brett Hornig (01:49:16.463)
Mm-hmm.

Finn (01:49:29.674)
that I could see possibly arising from this is, well actually 2A, just the inherent competitive nature of people and wanting to finish as high as possible, that's at stake. And then maybe, you know, if you're, if you are sponsored by a brand like Hoka or Nike or Ultra, and they have certain bonuses based on your exact finish inside the podium, maybe there was some money at stake there, but that's, those are the only two that really come to mind for me.

Brett Hornig (01:49:51.539)
Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah.

jamil (01:49:55.173)
Well, but also if Ryan was racing for that golden ticket, then like, that isn't, that is a pretty big, now it's a pretty big issue. So like, and that's why I said, like, we are looking into this and. You know, it's yet to be determined. So

Finn (01:50:01.026)
Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:50:01.856)
Yeah, now it's like.

Finn (01:50:13.619)
you.

Brett Hornig (01:50:14.527)
Yeah, I definitely had a lot of back and forth with myself on this morning as I was watching Strava flybys for 25 minutes while drinking my cup of coffee

jamil (01:50:22.945)
I was, I was just looping it as well. So like, we'll definitely be dissecting it a bit more, but I think like. This comes up in track racing and there are other parts of the sport where this is like more commonplace, like a desert solstice and records attempts. Like there are rules around this. Now, do we have defined rules for have Alina? It's not explicit, but.

Brett Hornig (01:50:40.216)
Mm-hmm.

jamil (01:50:48.977)
this might form a new rule out of this situation, just so we can have something to go back to or better inform the athletes that like, Hey, for the sake of competition and like having a fair playing field, like, you know, you can have a pacer, but it can't be someone that's on a different lap than you.

Finn (01:51:10.706)
I say we do like two more points before we close up here and this has been awesome. For me and Brett, you've talked about this a lot. You actually talked about it in our previous episode but I wanted to echo it here because I experienced it firsthand at the race. I actually, I'm a new convert. I love this multi-lap format. The more scenic the location, the better. I know the Hurt 100 does this as well but after Javelina, one of the first things I thought to myself was

I want there to be more of these four and five lap-esque races in our sport that are competitive and have stuff on the line. I think it's great for fans. I think it's great for the live stream. I think it's great for crews. I think the higher frequency opportunities we create to be a part of the race as opposed to hopping in our car and having these three or four hour commutes to the next aid station or critical point, the better. And I'm already starting to think in my head, what is the next place?

that we could institute a race in our sport that mimics a lot of the factors of javelina, but just in like a slightly different environment or altogether different environment.

Brett Hornig (01:52:16.619)
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I haven't thought about more potential Javelina venues because that one's good enough for me, but I love the lapped vibes. And like you had said, when painting the picture, telling the storyline of the race, it's easier for the live stream, it's easier for the fans. But...

jamil (01:52:26.185)
I'm sorry.

Brett Hornig (01:52:44.843)
in a different way, it's really fun for the middle and back of the Packers on the course as well because they get to watch the whole race live at different parts of the course. When the elites are passing them, they get to see what the gaps are. You get to pass your favorite runner multiple times. It's really cool. You don't get that at something like Western States. You start on the line with the elites and then they are gone forever.

Whereas here it's like, oh, they're going to come up on me at some point. You know, when I'm on lap two, they're going to be on lap three. I get to see who's winning. You know, when I'm on lap four, lap three, they're going to be coming in on this last lap, I get to see the race unfold because you know, there's been a few times now where it's like, you're in the race and you're like, man, I really wish I could be watching the race instead of being in it.

You kind of get both at Javelina. And I think that's one of the huge pros of this loop course that is really unique and especially too with where it is, like the party in the desert. I mean, I got to spend more time at the venue this year than last year hanging out for like five or six hours after I dropped. And like, man, it is a vibe out there. It is so fun to just like wander around.

and see what all the crews are up to, see what the live stream is up to, see what Jubilee and the DJ and the rave out by the finish line is up to. It's just so fun.

Finn (01:54:22.582)
Jamil, could there be more of these in the AeroVipa catalog? Like whenever like Javelina finishes up, you're like, oh, this was, maybe we do more of these in the future.

jamil (01:54:32.713)
Yeah. I mean, a race that we try to do that with a little bit is, uh, cold water rumble in January, which is, I mean, it's another desert race. Um, and we've actually changed it up a little bit this year. We had a five loop format. We're moving to a three loop, but it's going to be a more epic loop. So, um, with two crew access spots. So you can access them at the home base. Actually the home base you hit twice per loop. So you actually do hit that five times. And then there's a secondary spot where you can hit it as well. So I think.

I would love for cold water rumble to be like have Alina 2.0, but it's like guaranteed to be great weather pretty much or cooler weather than the potential heat of have Alina in October.

Brett Hornig (01:55:17.071)
Okay, okay, you have my attention. You have my attention. Wow.

Finn (01:55:19.138)
Hahaha

jamil (01:55:22.077)
That's my pitch, but to what you said, Brett, it used to be even more insane with the washing machine loops because you would then see the entire field head to head every lap. So you would literally watch the whole thing unfold in real time in front of you, which is pretty cool. Yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:55:39.591)
Yeah, that's pretty amazing. I heard Kogala lights kind of ruined that.

jamil (01:55:44.953)
It was a big part of it. I mean, the amount of complaints we would get for people that shine, you know, shining their lights and other people's eyes. Uh, and then just the passing, like, I mean, you coming up on us, that one section of trail, I mean, imagine having to like dodge out of the whale, the way of like hundreds of people, every lap on some of those narrow single tracks. Like it's just, it became too much.

Brett Hornig (01:56:04.628)
Yeah. Oh yeah.

Brett Hornig (01:56:10.023)
Yeah, and the race is even bigger now.

Finn (01:56:14.359)
Well, I wanted to thank both of you guys for the generosity of your time. This has been an awesome conversation. We've covered great ground. Before we go, I wanted to make sure we had a chance to promote stuff that you guys are working on. The first thing, starting with you, Jamil, I know personally I'm excited about Desert Solstice and McDowell Mountain Frenzy, but what is on the near-term horizon for Eravipa that you're excited to talk about?

jamil (01:56:39.197)
Yeah. I mean, we can start with those two. McDonn Mountain Frenzy. Last year we had the Solomon Golden Shoe where, uh, the winners of the race, uh, had the opportunity to get a Solomon athlete contract. Uh, this year we don't have a, one of those, but we do have prize purse. So, um, $4,000 a prize purse this year. We're trying to build it up. Uh, we are planning a live stream for that one. And then Desert Solstice is coming up.

Um, it's a little bit of a lighter field this year, but we do have some interesting athletes. Dakota Jones is going to be going for a fast hundred or 12 hour, uh, Ashley Paulson, who won bad water outright this year, she's coming. Um, I also will shout out. It's not been super well publicized yet, but the fat ox 24 hour is going to be the USA TF 24 hour national championship.

Finn (01:57:16.395)
Nice.

jamil (01:57:36.765)
That is in November. So it's coming up just in a few weeks, actually. I think it's just in, it's taken three weeks. Devin Yanko is going to be out for that. Simon Holveck, who I think was second at Spartathlon this year is going for 48 hour, uh, national record and also potentially world record. So a couple of things to keep an eye out for with what we got going on.

Finn (01:57:37.41)
cool.

Finn (01:58:02.711)
Does Aerovipa do a backyard ultra currently?

jamil (01:58:05.849)
So we don't do a traditional backyard. We have hosted the across the years last person standing, but it's been a one mile every 15 minutes. If we can find a date on the calendar, I would love to host one. We did one called Lone Cactus a few years back and it was a lot of fun.

Brett Hornig (01:58:26.091)
Yeah, it sounds like you need like a week on the calendar now for a backyard.

jamil (01:58:29.085)
For that, yeah, that's true.

Finn (01:58:32.642)
Brett, on your side of things, what are you excited about with Trails in tarmac, conversational pace, and I guess also like are you going to be lining up for another Golden Ticket Race anytime soon?

Brett Hornig (01:58:44.195)
Well, I got to get this knee thing sorted out. It's still kind of sorted the touch and kind of fat. So I should probably get that sorted out. But I'm fighting demons right now, being like, assuming I get this knee thing sorted out, should I just start trying to run like 150 miles a week and run Black Canyon? Or should I just like Eric Sentsman post and get in the booth for Black Canyon? Because I really like both. Like I don't.

Yeah, I don't know how many more of these I like really want to go in for. Especially after last year, I said I was done and then I didn't listen. Maybe I should. Dude, I hinted at I full on said I'm retiring from racing last year, at least like super competitive racing. So, I mean, I still love the idea. I'm still super on board with a if Jamil, if you'll have me helping out with commentary for the Black Canyon 100K and then and then trying to do the media 60K.

Finn (01:59:20.246)
Wait, are you hinting at retirement right now?

Brett Hornig (01:59:41.783)
the next day. I think that would be really fun. But like, again, who knows if the knee starts cooperating and I just start running like 25 hours a week without a hitch. I mean, it's gonna be hard not to, you know, just go full send over it. Black Canyon is a race that I have wanted to run for like a half dozen years now. And it's just like, never lined up correctly. But, you know, I mean, that's, yeah, we'll just see. I got to figure out this knee thing first before I even think about any running things.

jamil (01:59:41.902)
course.

Finn (01:59:43.108)
Awesome.

Brett Hornig (02:00:11.979)
Yeah, we've got some fun shoe reviews coming up. I guess I never actually publicly announced the results to the poll that we did for which shoe we're reviewing next. And we're actually recording it tomorrow, November 2nd, but it was the Kraft Nord-Lite Ultra, much to our surprise out of Kraft Nord-Lite Ultra, Salomon, Thundercross, and Topo Mountain Racer 3.

So, Craft is up on deck and then we got to figure out which one of these we're going to do next, whether it's the Topo or the Solomon. I'm going to go to the running event and check out all the new lines of shoes. Hopefully, try and publish a bunch of 2024 trail shoe preview videos. Yeah, I've never been to the running event, so excited to experience.

that for the first time. But, Finn, what about you? What do you got coming up?

Finn (02:01:11.762)
I am running CIM at the beginning of December, thanks to you. And then I have to think about, I'm recommitting similar to what we were talking about with Jamil. I am definitely recommitting to the sport in 2024 from a running standpoint. I needed this marathon to sort of boost confidence in my abilities. And Brad has really helped with that. And I mean, we were talking before this episode, I am one of the biggest fans. I consider myself an elite fan of the Cocodona 250.

I would love to run that race one day, maybe as soon as next year. Um, but yeah, I kinda, I kinda want to stay local, like looking at the Wasatch 100, the bear 100, Antelope Island, Buffalo run, stuff like that. So I do think for a lot of reasons, I'll probably stay local next year, but, um, the one that is, uh, causing a lot of excitement in my imagination is coca-dona, so we'll see to be, to be determined.

Brett Hornig (02:02:06.723)
and you gotta be the first person to ever do coca-dona. No crew, no pacers, no drop bags. No drop bags, just you gotta start with everything and then hope for the best.

jamil (02:02:13.291)
No Drop bags.

Finn (02:02:13.301)
Ha ha.

Finn (02:02:17.474)
Just through, just the first unsupported through hike of the coca-dona 250. Ha ha ha.

Brett Hornig (02:02:25.335)
Yeah, don't even get a bib.

jamil (02:02:25.701)
You gotta carry all your food from the start too. No aid stations.

Brett Hornig (02:02:30.878)
and still pay the entry fee.

Brett Hornig (02:02:35.496)
So fun.

Finn (02:02:35.556)
Awesome guys. We'll leave it there. Thank you so much. And I'm glad we've got the long run archives rejuvenated. Hopefully we're doing another one of these next month. And Jamil, thank you so much for being our special guest host. You crushed it. And we can't thank you enough for the insights and wisdom.

jamil (02:02:52.689)
Thank you guys for having me.