Hayden Hawks | 2024 Black Canyon 100K Pre-Race Interview

Finn (00:00.883)
Hayden Hawks, it is a pleasure to have you on the Singletrack Podcast. How are you doing today?

Hayden Hawks (00:06.058)
Yeah, I'm doing good, man. Excited to be on with you. It's been a long time coming, so I'm really happy that I'll finally get on the podcast with you.

Finn (00:13.819)
Likewise, great to have you here. And I have to imagine that coming off an injury and feeling strong again, that has to feel like a whole new lease on life. So talk about that feeling.

Hayden Hawks (00:25.818)
Oh yeah, I feel like a brand new person to be honest with you. It kind of, you know, I feel like I'm kind of restarted my running career. Um, you know, it was, it was really tough last year, you know, dealing with that injury and really fighting it over the last two, three years has been just really hard physically and mentally. And to be able to finally like take care of it and get the surgery that I need to get done and then rehab, you know, there's a lot of hard work after surgery, of course.

but to rehab that and to come out of it feeling really healthy, and feeling just very confident in what my knee can do now, what my body can do. It's crazy how much I have been compensating because of that knee. And I could feel a difference just in the energy distribution when I was running. And now that I'm completely healthy, it's like, I just feel so much stronger.

things that used to feel hard, feel effortless. And it's just really exciting.

Finn (01:29.675)
So it sounds like the type of operation where if you do the rehab correctly, it can actually, like you said, maybe make you a better runner, fix some bad habits you had prior to the injury. And it's not one of those procedures where like you're half of what you once were.

Hayden Hawks (01:46.762)
No, yeah, I was a little nervous about that, to be honest with you. Like I had kind of pushed off the surgery about maybe two, three years ago, I started feeling this, you know, this pain in my knee. It just felt like I had like a nail stuck in my patellar tendon. And I kept thinking it was just patellar tendonitis. And that's just kind of what I was like, oh, it's just tendonitis, I'll get through it. You know, I'll do the strength work, the rehab, blah, blah. And it just kept coming back and it kept coming back. It kept coming back.

And I was like, man, this has gotta be something else. And you know how we all are. Like I jumped on Google, started doing my own research to try and figure out what it was and had some ideas of what it was. But when I saw on Google that it said I would potentially need a surgery, I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Like I don't wanna get surgery. Like that could put me back and it could cause me to not be able to be the runner that I wanna be. And so I kinda kept pushing it off.

when I finally had to get the surgery and got, you know, the MRI and the x-ray and the doctor was like, hey, this is gonna change your life. I was all for it. And, but I was still nervous that I would just, I wouldn't, I would lose all that fitness that I'd gained year after year after year. But it's been the total opposite, to be honest with you. I've come out of this surgery stronger than I was before.

Western States last year. Before Western States last year, I was on an all time high and I was like, man, I'm gonna win this race. I'm feeling so strong, the best I've ever felt in my career. And I was afraid of losing that, but to be honest with you, I feel even better now and feel like I'm even more fit than I was then.

Finn (03:28.507)
I have always pegged you as sort of the American version of Tom Evans when it comes to professionalism, like really taking the sport seriously, leaving no stone unturned. What did you add to your toolkit during your time off from like being out there logging miles and racing?

Hayden Hawks (03:45.834)
Oh, a lot of things to be honest with you. But I think the biggest thing that people would probably be like, oh wow, that's crazy, I can't believe he does that now, is I actually have lowered my miles. So after my surgery, I was of course working with physical therapists, working with a strength coach, working with a psychology coach, working with a bunch of different people. I had a lot of really good people in my corner helping me.

And we started doing some testing, especially with my strength coach, on weaknesses that I might've had that could've caused part of this injury, that maybe some habits that I developed because I've been compensating so long with the injury. And we figured out that my balance is terrible. Like I have terrible balance, which of course balance is everything on trails, especially technical trails, so you need to have balance. The second thing we figured out was,

Finn (04:40.049)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (04:45.662)
uh, strength, just overall strength was pretty low in my legs. Um, I have speed for days, you know, I'm a pretty thin athlete who can just run forever, but when it comes to just pure power and strength, I lacked in that department. Um, and then the other things that I lacked is, you know, over the years, my nutrition has given me a lot of issues. Um, you know, uh, another thing was just staying healthy.

you know, and showing up to a starting line fresh, healthy, and be able to utilize the fitness that I'd gained during that block of training. So we kind of made this list of like, okay, these are your weaknesses. Now, let's address all of these weaknesses and let's make those weaknesses strong. And so that's what I've been doing over the last, you know, nine months since my surgery is just really focusing on making those weak things strong. And so what I did is, is I actually lowered my mileage a little bit.

I've only been doing 80 to 100 mile weeks for the most part. And I've done that on purpose because that allows me to have more time to do strength training. That allows me to have more time to do cross training, which is gonna keep me healthier, which that addresses one of the issues that I've had. I've worked a lot with my sponsor, Precision Hydration, over this course of time to really dial in nutrition. Because I'm using the bike more in my training, I can then

really use or like focus on nutrition while I'm on the bike, train my stomach to handle more liquids, to handle more carbohydrates. So that has increased. And then with my strength coach, I've been doing a lot of very specific strength to build leg strength, to build weak areas, meaning my hamstrings and glutes were really weak. And we've addressed that issue. We've addressed a lot of the balance issue by doing a lot of balance strength training. And also the bike.

Finn (06:35.402)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (06:44.19)
helps with that strength as well, because I can push on the bike and not feel as beat up as I would, you know, pushing and running, and just really turning over and pushing on the bikes and hammering down on the pedals really builds a lot of leg strength. And I've seen that. I put on a little bit of muscle on my legs, but that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing for me. And honestly, I feel stronger. I feel more balanced. I feel more well-rounded.

Finn (07:00.488)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (07:12.854)
better than I've ever felt in my career. Like you said, it's leaving no stone unturned. You know, it's crossing the T's and dotting the I's and doing everything I can to be the best athlete that I can be, and that's what I've really focused on during this stretch where I haven't been racing and I've just been focusing on getting better.

Finn (07:31.807)
So if I understand correctly, total workload has stayed in the same ballpark as in past years, but it's just less running. It's increased, okay.

Hayden Hawks (07:41.582)
It's actually increased, to be honest with you. Yeah, yeah, total time has increased because I can do more on the bike. I can do more strength training. Like before I did no strength training. You know, now I'm doing four to six hours a week of strength training. Almost every day I'm doing something. And then I have some really big workouts two to three times a week where I'm lifting pretty heavy and lifting different weights and different things like that. And then the bike, of course, I can do more volume on the bike and not be as beat up.

You know, and so, and honestly, like a lot of the times before I was just doing garbage miles. Like I'd go out for like a six mile run and it'd be an easy run, but it was just garbage miles. It was just like surviving through a six mile run. And sometimes it was really hard mentally to do that. But now I actually look forward to jumping on the bike. I can push a little bit more Watts, you know, get a little bit of a bigger workout in. I I've been using the indoor bike a lot this winter and I really sweat a lot, which is a, a form of heat training.

Um, so I'm actually getting more benefit using the bike and doing less running. Um, and I think it's helping.

Finn (08:48.543)
This is so interesting because we just had Zach Miller on the show. And one of the things we were talking about was sort of like, I'll call it like the Russian roulette of the running volume game, where it's just like a lot of people in your circumstances will just slowly or significantly up the Antion volume and just kind of pray that they don't break and pray that they've hit that like optimal point where they've outworked the competition and things are just going to come together on race day. But this is an interesting trend where, um, really like cross training does

pretty valuable and substantial part of the block. Is it just you that's doing this or who influenced this and you besides your PT's? Like our fellow athletes doing it?

Hayden Hawks (09:28.298)
Yeah, I think some are doing it. You know, you have Hillary Allen, who's doing a lot of biking. You know, we see that on her Strava. I know Jim, you know, has doing some ski mountaineering, cross-country skiing, biking as well. I mean, Europeans have been doing this for years. You know, they spend an entire three, four months during the winter just skiing a ton and putting in big volume. You know, and I'm still putting in running. That's the thing is, it's not like I'm running like 20, 30 miles a week.

Finn (09:45.352)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (09:56.938)
No, you still have to do running and you still have to have key sessions. Like specificity is everything. And I'm very specific when I do my running. I'm making sure I'm doing it on trails that are similar to what I'm training for. And a lot of the time it's very quality. A lot of the sessions I'm doing and I'm doing workouts. And 80 to 100 miles a week is still quite a bit. But I'm also able to supplement with that bike. And it just...

Finn (10:18.154)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (10:23.55)
makes me a more well-balanced athlete, not just physically, but mentally. And I think it is very interesting that, you know, you talked about people just trying to up the ante until they find that spot. That spot's different for everybody. And I don't think you're ever gonna reach that spot just by upping and upping and upping. No, there is a sweet spot where you feel like, okay, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling fresh going into workouts. I can actually hit my workouts quality and I'm healthy.

Finn (10:37.629)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (10:53.022)
And that's the number one thing is like, if you're not healthy, you can't use the fitness that you've gained. Like I could show up at a starting line. I mean, case in point, Western States, I showed up at Western States as fit as I could possibly be. You know, it was like, man, I'm ready to go, but I wasn't healthy. So I wasn't able to use that fitness. And it's like, I wanna show up at a starting line being able to use that fitness. And that's different for everybody. Some people can handle 150 mile weeks and still stay healthy.

but I feel like I've forced a lot over the years trying to just up, when really I probably should have stayed around that 100, 120 mile range maybe, and showed up to the start line healthy, fresh, ready to go. A good example is JFK. When I broke the course record at JFK and had probably the best performance of my career maybe, yeah, and CCC, I was actually doing less.

Finn (11:43.072)
That or CCC.

Hayden Hawks (11:47.574)
because before CCC, I was coming off of an injury and a kind of a little bit of a burnout, to be honest with you earlier that season. And I lowered my volume a bit, trying to freshen up a bit. And then all of a sudden, boom, came into CCC, had a great performance. JFK was the same thing. It was 2020, you know, with COVID and everything going on. I was doing maybe a little less volume during the fall. I was really focusing on just building some speed. And I actually started implementing the bike in.

in 2020 during COVID and all of a sudden I came out with that JFK performance. So it's like, I mean the proof is in the pudding. I just got to see it, right? And I think maybe this injury woke me up and helped me see it.

Finn (12:30.263)
Dude, we're both NBA fans, this'll be a good reference. This is load management for ultra running.

Hayden Hawks (12:36.202)
Yeah, exactly. It's load management. I wanna be ready at Western States. I wanna be ready at CCC, UTMB, whatever it is. That's the time that I wanna be ready. And it's important to manage that load, especially early on in the season, so you are ready when it really counts. And we see that a lot. Like Kauai Leonard, for instance, he's a good example. That dude, when it gets to playoff time, he's maybe the best.

playoff player in the NBA. But he's always just like, he does what he needs to do during the season and then he shows up in the playoffs and he's just a different animal. And I would never wanna face Kawhi Leonard in the playoffs cause he just goes off.

Finn (13:21.811)
It makes me wonder too, like you're in your early 30s, you're right in the middle of your prime, I would say, or maybe the back end of the prime, but like I'm curious, when you implement this now, how many years do you gain back on the back end of your professional career? Like, can you keep doing this well into your 40s? Can you be even like Jeff Browning 2.0 or 3.0 in your 50s, like with this type of training theory in place and not having to do like 150 miles a week at age 38 or

47 what's possible for like stretching out your career and making a living at this for long

Hayden Hawks (13:56.906)
Oh, 100%. Yeah, I think it's possible. I love that. I wanna do this as long as I possibly can. To be at my prime though, I'm 32 right now. I think I have at least eight more years. I think I can go to at least 40 in this prime and really being able to win things like Western States, like UTMB, like the biggest races in the world.

And that's kind of where I had to get to. I had to be kind of awakened and realize that, hey, you're not gonna make it to 40 if you continue on doing what you're trying to do and pushing things and keep injuring yourself. And that was part of why I got the surgery is too, is like, I wanna make it to 40, 45, 50. I can't do that on this bum knee. I have to take care of this knee.

take care of myself, if that means I have to take off, six to nine months of racing to make that happen, I'm willing to do that so I can have many, many more years to come. So yeah, that was part of the plan. And also it's gonna take adapting as I go. Right now I'm still focused on Western States. I'm focused on these runnable type races because I still have the leg speed. I still have the ability to really crush and win these things. I think later on, as I get a bit older, I might have to shift focuses to more of that.

mountain stuff like a UTMB or a Trans Grand Canary or something that requires maybe a little bit more hiking. And I'm willing to do that. And I'm excited to do that. But right now is my moment to really do well at these runnable things while I still can. And like you said, I am in my prime. I mean, I still think my best years are ahead of me, if I have to be completely honest with you.

Finn (15:31.611)
You were talking about that? Yeah, yeah.

Finn (15:41.287)
You were talking about nutrition earlier and I know, and this is for most people in your circumstances, right? Like nutrition was the kind of piece of the puzzle that kind of nagged at you in the last couple of Western States runs. You've gone into the lab, you've gone into the field, you've done a ton of testing, you've learned a ton about yourself. What have been some of the surprises or the insights you've picked up about how to make this part of your execution more predictable?

Hayden Hawks (16:07.65)
Yeah, it's upping the numbers is the biggest thing. When I went into the lab, so I flew out to the UK, got into a lab at Liverpool John Moores University with my coach and some friends that were out there, one of the lead exercise science personnel or professors at the university. And we went through and we tested everything out. And what we realized from that is I just wasn't getting enough.

Like I was not getting enough carbohydrates in per hour. I was seeing big dips in energy and I wasn't getting enough hydration in. I just wasn't drinking enough. Like I grew up in the desert. So I always thought like, oh, I don't need to drink as much as other people might have to drink, you know, because I'm a desert rat. Like I can just go out and run. And for the longest time, you know, when I was a track and field and dabbling a little bit on the roads, I didn't drink at all. I mean, I would never bring water with me. I would never bring nothing with me. You know, I'd be running in.

hundred degree weather in St. George, Utah with no water, which I don't advise that that's not very smart and it's very unsafe. But that's just kind of how I did things because I was all about, you know, not carrying weight on me and just being able to run free and you know, no shirt and just have fun out in the desert. And I've since learned that you can't do that in a race, especially a race like Western States, you know, it's hot. But the...

Think about Western states that's very unique is it starts cold, finishes hot. And you have to be willing to adapt your hydration strategy as you go. And that's the thing that maybe a lot of people don't do is they try and drink the same amount every hour or they get caught in this kind of like this, this rhythm of drinking a small amount at the beginning because it's cold and then they keep continuing to do that into the heat. It doesn't work that way. Like you have to up.

Finn (17:38.534)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (18:02.466)
your hydration as the race goes. And so we did that in the chamber. They put me in a heat chamber. They put me in an altitude chamber and we went through the entire course and we just kind of like changed the heat and the altitude and everything to figure out exactly how my body was adapting to the hydration and the carbohydrates and everything. It was a pretty unique experience, you know, running with a thermometer.

up your backside there. But that's what it takes, you know, to really get that temperature down and figure out what your core temp was. And so I did all that. And then I've just been practicing it since then. And that's the thing is I got all the numbers, I figured out, hey, I need to up everything. But then it was practicing it in a real life environment and doing it, you know, many times during the week. So every long run,

I'm practicing race day nutrition. And then every workout I'm practicing race day nutrition. So at least three to four days out of my week, I'm practicing my race day nutrition. I'm getting in a hundred plus grams of carbohydrates per hour and I'm drinking according to the temperature outside and what I need to be drinking. I'm carrying those bottles on me and I'm.

practicing with my crew and I'm doing all these things to really dial in that. And I feel like now I've trained my stomach and I've really gotten into a good swing of things with both fueling and hydration.

Finn (19:40.119)
How long did it take you to ramp to tolerate 100 grams of carbs per hour?

Hayden Hawks (19:52.814)
Sorry, you paused there for a second.

Finn (19:56.921)
Oh, the question was, how long did it take you to ramp up to tolerate 100 grams of carbs per hour?

Hayden Hawks (20:03.678)
Yeah, it's taken me probably at least a year to really train the stomach and the mind to be able to handle that. Like I said, it's weekly, I'm doing it weekly. The bike has helped a lot because you can eat a little bit more on the bike so you can start training the stomach a little bit on the bike. And then you start implementing it into the runs and then you start really ramping that up. One thing that's been really crucial is Precision has this new product called Flow Gel.

Finn (20:20.285)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (20:30.906)
and it's like this really kind of liquid gel where you can put 300 grams of carbs in one flask. And so I can take that flask and go out for a three hour run and that's all I need to fuel with. And I'm getting a hundred grams in per hour with this flow gel product, which has just been amazing. So yeah, it's just been really continuously doing it. When I first started my career, people are gonna laugh when they hear this, but.

When I won CCC in 2017, I think I was only taking like 30, 40 grams of carbs in per hour, maybe. I had no clue what I was doing. I was just like trying to throw whatever in. And I think we calculated at the end and it was like, yeah, maybe 50 grams, maybe at the most on some hours. When I ran Western States and took second in 2021,

I think it was at 2021. I was probably taking in 60 grams, maybe 70 grams. And my hydration was terrible. And I really felt it towards the end of the race. Like I wasn't able to sustain the effort that felt comfortable at the beginning because I wasn't fueling and I wasn't hydrating. And the body was just like, I got to a point where it's like, hey, I can't do this anymore.

So now I'm at 100 and it's just, I have no stomach issues, no bathroom problems, no issues at all. And I'm able to sustain just a higher effort level and a faster pace for longer periods of time because I'm actually getting the proper fuel and the proper hydration that I need. And I think when it really dawned on me that I needed to do something like this was, I remember going on a run with Jim Walmsley actually in the Grand Canyon. I think it was maybe 2022, maybe.

Finn (22:19.447)
Okay.

Hayden Hawks (22:20.81)
We were doing a loop there and we were talking and he asked me like, so what like energy products are you taking? Like what are you fueling with? And I told him and he was like, oh well okay, I don't think you're getting enough. And I was like, well how much are you getting? And he was like telling me that he's been getting close to a hundred grams of carbs in per hour and if not more. And I was like, oh that's my problem. Like no wonder I'm getting dropped coming out of the canyon, you know?

Finn (22:44.663)
Thanks for watching!

Hayden Hawks (22:50.398)
It's just like it dawned on me right there is like I need to work on this. This is a weakness I need to get myself up to that hundred gram or maybe even a little bit more if I can and I also am a big cyclist cycling fan And so like following a lot of these cyclists and seeing them up their carbohydrate intake has really gotten me thinking that hey This is something you need to work on this could be a huge game-changer for you This could be the difference between you holding on to first place or falling back to second place at Western States

Finn (23:08.32)
Yeah.

Finn (23:20.267)
Are you doing ketone shots at all? Are you on that train yet?

Hayden Hawks (23:23.906)
I haven't tried them yet, but I was at Jeff Browning thing down at the St. George Running Center last week and they had a drawing and I won some of the ketone IQ, a box of them. So I decided not to try it before Black Canyon, but after Black Canyon, I think I'll try some out.

Finn (23:30.333)
Yeah.

Finn (23:42.071)
Brace yourself for the taste, but yeah, they're interesting. I promise we'll get to the Black Canyon stuff in a second. There's just a ton of questions I've always wanted to ask you and it's interesting. Like I was talking with some friends a few months back and we all found it pretty interesting that when you look at a lot of the great ultra trail runners like you, people like Walmsley, Peterman, yourself, you guys have all battled for or even won.

Hayden Hawks (23:46.077)
Okay.

Finn (24:10.803)
some of those like shorter Strava segment crowns like Mount Tam, Sentinel, Green Mountain, Grandeur. And it made all of us think like, like in your case, why did you end up having this tunnel vision for Western States and UTMB instead of say, like the Golden Trail World Series? Like I'm so curious to hear you talk about, you know, why your career took the path of going the longer distance route, as opposed to like, cause you're a fast dude, like,

the Golden Trail series or the VK stuff. So talk about that.

Hayden Hawks (24:45.462)
Yeah, I mean, I competed at Sierra Zanale in 2021. And honestly, it was fun. Had a great time at that race. I mean, and it's probably the most competitive race in the world. I mean, it was so cool to like run fast like that and dabble with some of those really fast guys. And I've thought about it numerous times over the years as like, how fun would it be to just do like a golden trail world series season? But I don't know, man. It's just really hard because

Finn (24:50.143)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (25:15.71)
Like Western States is what got me into this sport in the first place. Like hearing the stories of people coming into the St. George Running Center when I was working there and talking about this amazing race, you know, Western States, that's kind of what like really intrigued me to get into the sport and it's what I really wanted to do. I wanted to do it the right way and progress the right way. And I maybe progressed a little faster than I wanted to because

I had immediate success at some of these ultras because the thought was like, I'm gonna run SpeedGo, 50K, and then that's all I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna run 50Ks. And then I got invited and intrigued on running the North Face 50 Mile Challenge, which I of course signed up for that and had success there. And then it was like, oh, but the biggest stage is CCC and UTMB. You gotta go out there.

And so when I went out and ran CCC and ended up winning that, you know, in my first 100K, it was like, okay, maybe I'm pretty good at this ultra stuff. And I just kind of like, I think that's kind of what happened is like, it just kind of happened. Like I didn't force anything. I just was like competitive and I wanted to put myself in the most competitive races in the world.

And that's what at the time, Speed Goat, North Face and CCC, I mean, those were the most competitive in those respective distances. And so that's what I did. And I had immediate success at all three of those. And then it was like, okay, well, what's next? Like Western States, let's go. You know, like maybe I'm more ready than I thought, you know, for something like Western States. And then it was trying to get into that and trying to figure that out. But yeah, like.

I don't know, man. It is very interesting because sometimes I look back and I'm like, man, I was pretty fast. Like, and I still am pretty fast. And I feel like I could do well at the Golden Trail World Series. And I don't know, maybe one of these years, I'll just, you know, go from ultra to back down to that and try it out, see what I can do.

Finn (27:23.175)
Well, at the very least, it's a fascinating what if, and obviously as a, as a personal fan of the ultra Chelsea, I'm glad that fate led you in this direction. But it's fun to wonder. And like I saw back when you were in Boulder, I saw you jamming on green mountain a bunch. I'm like, man, like what would it be like to see Hayden dedicate 2024, for example, to the golden trail world series racing, like the mammoth 26 K. Headlands 50 K here in the U S like you said, Sears and all again, Zagama it'd be amazing.

Hayden Hawks (27:51.83)
Yeah, but that, I mean, that side of the sport's getting so fast too. And honestly, like you got a lot of young bucks coming in and, I mean, I don't know. Like sometimes I look at it and I'm like, you know, do I really want to go drop back down and race these 23, 25 year olds, you know, specialists like Remy Bonet? Like they're just, they're just crushing down there. And, and, uh, I think I, I do think I could hold my own and I think I could do really well. Um, but my heart and my love is in.

Western states, it's in these ultras, and I just really enjoy going out there. And I've always kind of had this thought in my mind is like the longer the distance, the better I get. And it's kind of been proven time and time again. Maybe it's more of a mental thing, I don't know, but I really do like the longer distances now.

Finn (28:41.471)
Yeah. So you don't, you truly feel like, cause I'm sure there are some like ex college teammates who will say like, Hey, and what are you doing? Like jogging these a hundred miles. There's like, you feel like you're pretty engaged. You feel like you're racing them. Like you feel like you're getting, you're requiring all of yourself out there.

Hayden Hawks (28:57.386)
Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I'm trying to push the boundaries. Like, you know, I was actually training in San Diego for a couple of weeks this, this winter, I was down there for Christmas and I was running with some of my ex college teammates and a bunch of Olympic trials qualifying guys, you know, they're all going out this weekend to run in Orlando. And that's going to be exciting to see them. And you know, we were doing some hard workouts and some fast, you know, running on the roads out there and it was fun. You know, we had some, some really good, good times and

I was like, hey man, like I can hold my own with these like Olympic trials guys, like, you know, and they were kind of dabbling, oh man, you should run a marathon. You see what you could do. Like, what do you think you could do in a marathon? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, I don't know, man. And so like, but I don't know. I just, like, my whole thing is like, I just love spending as much time as I possibly can out in the mountains and on the trails. And like my favorite workout.

is going out and doing like a 20, 30 mile run at like, you know, 50K effort or a hundred K effort or whatever it is, and just really just getting into a zone and just grinding. Like I do love that type of work. And so like, that's kinda where I feel like I thrive. And that's where I feel like my true love is, is in that type of work. And of course you do a lot of that type of work with, you know, doing these hundred Ks and hundred milers and different things like that.

Finn (30:17.121)
Mm.

Finn (30:25.083)
Maybe one more question for Black Canyon stuff. And we were just talking earlier about the merits of strategically training less from a running standpoint. I wanna go to the other side of the spectrum talking about the merits of racing less versus racing more. And I feel like a lot of people in your position in the last couple of years have become more strategic about how they build their calendars, when they peak, what constitutes a B race or a training race, stuff like that.

But then I like look at what Courtney did last year. And I wonder like given that she just put together a string of like five, six, seven world-class performances in a row from January to December last year, does that make someone in your position think, could I be doing more from a racing standpoint? Like if I'm holding back and training a little bit more, could I put more into like four or five big ultras in a given year versus, you know,

A late spring one, a late summer one.

Hayden Hawks (31:26.61)
Um, yeah, I've thought about it. I mean, Courtney did. She finished her season at UTMB though, right? And then she didn't race after that, didn't she?

Finn (31:36.467)
That's true. Yeah, I guess it was like a seven it was like an eight month stretch, but it wasn't I mean,

Hayden Hawks (31:39.938)
So she went January to September, and then she took a pretty good off season, September, October, November, she hasn't raced yet. And so, I mean, she did that 100K with her mom at Javelina, of course. But like, yeah, I think you need a proper off season. And I think Courtney did take a proper off season, and I think that's really, really important. It's something that I'm trying to incorporate into my.

Finn (31:43.099)
Yeah. Yep.

Hayden Hawks (32:06.006)
uh, racing strategy going forward. Cause when I was younger, I just raced a ton. I mean, I was racing like 10, 12 times a year. A lot of them were shorter distance races, but I was getting a lot of mediocre performances and then maybe hitting one out of the park every now and then. But I've decided now, like, I want to hit it out of the park every time, you know, I want to be ready to win Western States. I don't want to just go there and be top 10. Like I want a podium. I want to win.

you know, Black Canyon same way, you know, CCC same way. So now it's like trying to figure out how to do that. And I've seen that, yeah, racing a little bit less helps me to get more fresh and healthy and be prepared on race day, not just physically and, but mentally as well. And I still think you can race like five, six times a year and do that. But I think for me personally, some of those races need to be a little bit shorter and some of those can be a little bit longer.

and finding a kind of a balance with that. One of my best seasons I ever had was actually 2020. And I did what I could that year. And so I think I raced Black Canyon. I raced what was formerly known as Squaw Peak, now is Snowpeaks. I raced Snowpeaks in June. I raced SpeedGo in July. And then I raced...

JFK in November. So I had four races that entire year. And I showed up and I had great performances at every single one of those races. And so I've kind of like, that's another thing I thought about with this knee surgery. I think like you said, it brought me back to what really works for me and trying to figure out what really works for me and execute that going forward. And it was like, I raced four times that year, had four amazing performances.

Maybe that's what I should do, you know, and maybe I could throw in one or two smaller races in there, but like this year, I'm planning on racing six races. Two of those are short and more like just B races, but four key races. And that's what I'm gonna focus on. And then having a proper off season at the end of the year.

Finn (34:10.82)
Yeah.

Finn (34:18.963)
And that, I mean, that's significant, by the way, 2020, that's another amazing what if, if the world didn't shut down shortly after Black Canyon, assuming you ran Western states, what would have unfolded there? And given the shape you just described that you were in, could have been a really interesting year. I don't know if you think about that a lot, but that's really interesting.

Hayden Hawks (34:38.582)
The past is the past. I gotta focus on the future now, right? So that's how I've always been, is just, you know, learn from the past, but go forward and try and be your best going forward.

Finn (34:50.227)
Um, I guess getting into black Canyon, you know, obviously we're there in 2021, the race ran seven 55. It's a great time. Coming back around this time, what have been the key sessions for you? Like when you look at like the demands of this course, you think about the long downhill in the first 50 K rolling hills, bunchy climbs, how are you trying to mimic that in training?

Hayden Hawks (35:10.282)
Yeah, that's another thing I've really focused on and something that my coach really stresses is specificity. Specificity in everything. I listened to a podcast with Remy Bonet and Remy Bonet talked about how he has lowered his volume just a bit, you know, per year. And he has focused a lot on specificity with his training and making every training session, you know, mean something. And that really got me thinking is like, I think I need to do the same thing. Like,

The times that I've done best in races is when I'm very specific, um, when I'm staying home, when I'm putting myself in a, a good training environment, um, and I'm trying to just, you know, do everything that I can to prepare properly, um, cause I want to show up at a race prepared and, uh, that's what I've done during this block of training is luckily for me, I live in Southern Utah, uh, we live at 6,000 feet here in Cedar city, but it's a short drive to St. George.

Finn (36:06.912)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (36:08.862)
It's 30, 40 minute drive down to the desert there. And the trails down there are very similar to the Black Canyon trails, almost identical in some sections of trail. And so it's really easy for me to get on terrain that's very similar to the course. And so I've been going down to St. George at least two or three days a week. I do workouts on the trails. So I'll do tempo runs, I'll do intervals on the trails. Some of my workouts are on dirt roads or on the track every now and then.

but I do try and get as specific as possible. A key session that I do, that I posted about actually on Instagram the other day was three by 12 minute continuous hills. And what this is, is it's a one minute up, one minute down. You do that at lactate threshold and you do that for 12 straight minutes. So one minute up, one minute down, six times in essence to get to 12 minutes. Keeping the effort sustained at the same level the entire time.

And what this mimics is like the punchy climbs that you talked about that you're gonna that I'm gonna face at something like Black Canyon, Black Canyon has a lot of little punchy climbs where it's just like One minute climb followed by a quick down and then a back up to another one minute climb And you have to prepare the legs to be able to handle that and you have to be able to sustain an F the same effort level throughout that and not fatigue out So I've been doing this workout quite a bit to mimic that

I've been doing it on trail and also on dirt roads because that's what I'll face at Black Canyon is both. Doing on rocky trails because people don't realize that Black Canyon is actually pretty rocky. It's not, it's choppy, man. It is not just smooth going the entire time. And there's so many turns. Like there's, it's a mountain bike trail. There's a lot of people that run, that do mountain bike on it. And it has a lot of those little switchbacks and turns and rocky sections and...

You have to be prepared for that because it beats your feet up and it beats your legs up. And so a lot of the sessions and workouts I've been doing are to mimic that. And then also I did a little training camp. So I went down four weeks before the race and I got on the course for four days and did some key sessions on the course. I ran the first 60K with my crew. That's actually going to be crewing me at Black Canyon this year.

Hayden Hawks (38:31.394)
So we did like a dress rehearsal where we went through the entire first 60K of the course and went in and out of the aid stations the best we could and figured out what we need to do and what works and what doesn't work. And then, and I ran that actually that effort at a little faster than course record pace just to gain some confidence, but also to show, to see where my fitness was. And

Now after doing that session and then all the work that I've done this block, I know that I'm what I'm capable of and it gives me a lot of confidence and I'm pretty excited going into the race.

Finn (39:09.731)
With live streams in the last couple of years, it's been really interesting to watch race strategy break down over the course of a race. And so like at Western, for example, it was really cool to see Dakota try to break Tom right around Forest Hill last year. At Black Canyon, it was really fun to see Cole Watson try to stretch out Anthony Costales and Tom there and kind of try to break them right around Black Canyon City. Didn't work, but it was still thrilling to see. How do you...

mentally prepare yourself for those moments during the race and where do you see what do you see as the cruxes of the course where um assuming you're at the front of the race you need to match moves or you hold back stuff like that

Hayden Hawks (39:53.934)
I mean, racing at the highest level is not foreign to me. I've been at the highest level for eight years now in the sport. I know how to race other individuals. I'm not scared lining up against anybody. You know, I know what I can do and I know what I'm capable of. And I have a game plan and I focus on me. I focus on taking care of myself, eating, you know, pacing properly. And if somebody wants to go out there and do something crazy and it doesn't feel like it's sustainable to me.

I'm okay letting them go. I think sometimes you have to have confidence backing off and you have to have more confidence backing off and more confidence executing your own game plan than you do racing crazy. And so I'm gonna go into this race, completely focused on myself. I haven't looked at the start list. I mean, I've heard names being thrown around, of course. I listened to your podcast, I listened to other people. I'm sorry.

Finn (40:50.035)
depth is deep. The depth is deep.

Hayden Hawks (40:53.758)
Yeah, yeah, that's what I've heard, you know, and I have some friends that are running it. So of course I know that it's gonna be competitive, but it's how everything is. I mean, you show up at Western States, it's the most competitive race of the year, right? You show up at UTMB, it's the most competitive race of the year. It's like, I'm prepared for any situation, and I'll pay attention to my body and what it can and can't do and put myself in a position to win. And I'm just really excited for that.

I try and make it a point to just like in the two weeks leading up to the race, don't look at anybody's Strava. Don't listen to podcasts about other runners that are preparing for the race. And just focus on what I need to do. And so that's what I'm doing going in and I'm prepared mentally and physically and I know what I'm capable of. And I'm capable of running very, very fast on race day. And if I execute and I do that on race day.

you know, that's all I can do. And if somebody wants to go with me, more power to them. You know, they're gonna have to run fast. They're gonna have to dig deep and we'll see what happens.

Finn (42:06.667)
You mentioned sort of turning off the social media. You know, LeBron calls it zero dark 30 mode when he gets into the playoffs. Do you really believe that there are sort of dangers to following your competition and comparing yourselves to what they're doing?

Hayden Hawks (42:23.506)
I think everybody's different again, but I've just seen mentally, for me, yeah. I'd like to get into this zone where my wife doesn't, she told me, she's like, I don't really like being around you on race day or on race week. It's understandable. I try to be a nice person, of course, and I try to keep it lax and try to stay as relaxed as possible, joke around, have a good time.

But there's also times when I need to get into the zone and I need to kind of get mean. You know, I need to kind of be ready because it hurts out there and you have to be ready for when it does hurt and you have to be ready to dig yourself out of those, those moments and you have to be ready to fight. I mean, I'm competitive and I wanna win. Like, and I'm not there to be anybody's friend on race day. You know, I'm there.

like you said with LeBron, I'm there to win championships. I'm there to get the best out of myself. And sometimes that means being a little bit of mean and doing what you need to do on race day. And so that's what I really focus on. And yeah, but like in the weeks leading to, I do the same thing. I try to get off social media, do my posts and do what I need to do, but then not sit there and worry about it.

Finn (43:28.883)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (43:46.194)
I like a lot of other sports, so I sometimes just kind of like, tend to find myself watching a lot of basketball games or football games or like paying attention to other sports and other interests during that time. And it's really kind of nice actually to not have to worry about all that and just really focus on what I need to do to get ready for the race.

Finn (43:59.703)
Thanks for watching!

Finn (44:12.227)
One other thing I'm really curious about in the past, you've, it seems like with great success, you have worked with, you know, Matt Daniels, Tom Evans, Walmsley, Dan Jones in training for big races. I don't know exactly what the scene is like in Cedar City, but at least at the present moment, it's not quite the Mecca that like Boulder, Flag, Mill Valley is yet. I know that, you know,

Cedar City is like 1970s Boulder, right? Like it's a little Boulder, it's going to get there, but it's not quite yet. So how do you, given that you've benefited so much from that group training environment before, is it important to try to mimic that again in the future for maybe not Black Canyon, but like Western States?

Hayden Hawks (45:00.158)
Yeah, I think there's a time and a place for it. I don't need it all the time. Sometimes I kind of like training alone, to be honest with you, because I'm able to really just see who I really am and do my own thing, do what I need to do. And I saw this like nothing against Boulder. I loved Boulder. I love training with the guys out there. But I saw that I ended up doing a lot of what other people were doing quite a bit. And like, you kind of felt like this, not pressure,

per se, but you didn't want to miss out, right? So you'd be, oh, I'm going to change my workout a little bit today so I can go run with somebody else, or I'm going to go like, you know, add on a little bit of miles to my long run so I can go run with some people. And there's a time and a place for that. And I think there's times when that's okay. But like, when I'm getting ready, like during that 10 week training block, when I'm really getting ready for a big race, I think it's important to do what I need to do and focus on that and really make sure I'm dialed in and ready to go.

And sometimes that means running alone. And sometimes that means being comfortable being in your own head. And I felt like running with people too often actually sometimes made me weaker that way because I wasn't comfortable being in my own head. I felt like I always had to have people around me. And don't get me wrong, I love a good long run with friends. And I still try and do it today. Like I have some guys here in Cedar that are one guy who's running Black Canyon, Nate Jukes.

Finn (46:26.849)
Yeah, yeah.

Hayden Hawks (46:27.01)
who everybody should look out for because that dude is a beast. But anyways, yeah, and I do have some stuff coming up like Dan Jones is actually coming to stay with me here beginning of May. So we're gonna be training eight weeks together for Western States this year. And hopefully if Nate can potentially get in, we'll have, or if he doesn't get in, we'll still train with him. But me, Nate and Dan will be training here in Cedar City together.

And luckily now like me and Dan actually have the same coach. Um, so we can work together with our coach and make sure that we're doing what we need to be doing, which I think really helps, um, in a, in a group setting or a group environment.

Finn (47:11.895)
couple more questions. Yeah, like early on, we were talking about just insights you've picked up in the last nine months, just from the rehab process, seeing what's out there in terms of innovations to practice with. I also know you, you love talking with fellow athletes, and sort of picking their brains for insights. Have there been any memorable conversations you've had lately on that front? Or even if it's just something you've read or listened to?

if it's about nutrition or training theory, anything else, has anything socially piqued your interest?

Hayden Hawks (47:49.522)
Um, yeah, I guess those, uh, those Jim Wamsley prototypes that he was wearing at UTMB, those really, uh, piqued my interest in, I got my hands on a couple pairs of them. So, um, I'll be wearing a pair of those at Black Canyon. Really awesome shoe. I mean, it, it's the closest thing to a super shoe that I've found for the trails. Um.

Pretty nice, I've been doing a lot of some good training sessions in it during this block, making sure I'm prepared for it, and I'll be racing in it. And then, so yeah, that's been an awesome shoe that Hoka has came out with, and I'm constantly working with the team at Hoka. I'm actually on the testing team that tests out all the new prototypes. I've been testing out the new Tecton X3, which the shoe I have from Jim is a

similar type of shoe to the Tecton X3 with a little bit of changes. But that's going to be an awesome shoe and people should really be excited about that one. I work really close with the Precision Hydration team and I'm always constantly bouncing ideas off of them trying to figure out ways to just be more efficient with my fueling and get more carbs in and be more efficient at aid stations.

And actually they're actually bringing out a team to Black Canyon to help with some of the athletes out there. Me, Eric Lapuma and some of the others. They're actually gonna be crewing me at Western States at CCC. So they're really invested in me as an athlete, which is awesome. And they're constantly helping me. We jump on calls before every race to kind of go over my nutrition plan and get it all sorted out, which is awesome to have a team like that.

You know, just an excellent company that's always innovating and trying to find ways to up the nutrition game. So yeah, I've been focusing a lot, I guess with those two things, I guess those are probably the newest and, you know, latest, greatest things that I've been doing. Yeah, I'm always interested in trying to find ways to maybe get a little bit of a gain.

Finn (50:03.495)
It's amazing. There's all sorts of, I mean, as you know, all sorts of regulations around, you know, what materials and technology you can use for a quote unquote super shoe on the roads, but it's totally the wild west and trails. They can experiment with whatever they want. Kind of.

Hayden Hawks (50:16.286)
Yeah, it's probably gonna have to change, to be honest with you. And I think as the sport grows and whatnot, it'll probably change a bit. We'll probably see that. But I mean, cause like, nothing against, you know, Tom Evans and what he did at Western States, but he was wearing a shoe that nobody else had, you know, their hands on. You know, Jim, same thing at UTMB. He was wearing a shoe that nobody else could get.

Finn (50:38.361)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (50:40.658)
It's definitely a competitive advantage, you know, and especially for those that are sponsored by these big companies like Hoka and Adidas, they definitely have, you know, the upper hand in this situation. But yeah, until that changes, I'm definitely gonna take advantage of it and do the best I can and to try and, you know, run the fastest I can and have incredible performances.

Finn (51:04.539)
It is an interesting debate maybe to have in the next two to three years, like whether pro athletes should be able to use prototypes and races.

Hayden Hawks (51:15.614)
Yeah, yeah, it would be very interesting. I think, you know, like we've talked about with all the changes going on with, you know, the different series that we have out there and everything else with the Pro Trail Runner Association. I'm sure stuff like this will get brought up and there'll have to be conversations about it. And I think that's what's exciting about the sport right now though, is all these little things going on like,

You know, I always thought it would be so cool to be in the age when the NBA started, you know, or the NFL started. And you were kind of the pioneers to kind of get this thing rolling and then to look back on it, you know, and see what it's become. You're like, wow, man, like I helped start that, you know, I was a pioneer to help get these things rolling. And yeah, it's never going to be perfect right off the bat. And I think people got to realize that there's always going to be learning.

um, learnings and growing pains that every series or every what, you know, company is going to have to go through. Um, the NBA or the NFL wasn't perfect right off the bat, you know, and they're still not perfect. You know, they have players unions that are still discussing these things with the NBA to try and make the game better. And I think we're, we're starting to see that, you know, in our sport and it's, it's actually a, a really cool thing. And I think people should be excited about that rather than, um,

Finn (52:27.464)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (52:45.258)
upset about what's going on in the sport. It's like progress is a good thing, and I think the sport is progressing right now and it's pretty cool.

Finn (52:56.635)
It reminds me of a couple of things. First, yeah, like in a historical context is Ultra Trail running in like the Bill Russell, Jerry West era. Is it in the magic and Larry Bird era? Like I was just rewatching the Michael Jordan 10 part docu-series, which is excellent. If anyone needs inspiration, just go watch that and then go, you know, run through a door in inspiration. But like he inherits that Chicago Bulls team in like 1984.

And the entire team is just so undisciplined. They're finishing games. And the first thing they do is smoke like a pack of cigarettes and, you know, get wasted and like the league is just at a totally inferior level compared to where it was going to be five or 10 years from, you know, his inception point into the league. So yeah, we have, there's a lot to look forward to on the horizon in our sport and, uh, stoked that you're helping lead the charge.

Hayden Hawks (53:33.163)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (53:48.938)
Yeah, I was watching a Reggie Jackson documentary where they was talking about how when Reggie was playing for the Oakland A's back in the day, he was making like 20, 30,000 a year maybe. He was like one of one if not the best players in the MLB at that time. And then the Yankees came in and he signed the first million dollar contract, you know, with the Yankees. And it was like this huge thing going from like 20, 30,000 a year to a million. It was this big jump, right? And like

Finn (54:09.033)
Yes.

Hayden Hawks (54:16.778)
It was just pretty interesting to see all that. And it was kind of the same thing going on right now in trail running, there was all these arguments. People were just like bashing on this, bashing on that. Like how are the Yankees able to do this? Blah, blah, blah. But, you know, it's just crazy to think that was just in the 1970s, you know? And now you got guys like Otani signing $700 million contracts. You know, and I'm not saying our sport's gonna get there. You know, like, it's a totally different like.

Finn (54:23.613)
Yeah.

Finn (54:42.067)
Yeah.

Hayden Hawks (54:46.294)
thing. But like even look at cycling, like back in the day in the 60s and 70s, cyclists weren't making that much money. And now you got cyclists signing multi-million dollar contracts or, or look at the PTO, you know, and what they just came out with their pro series, which I think that would be pretty cool to have something like that in trail running. But, and I listened to your podcast with the PTO guy, great podcast, by the way, that was, that was really cool.

Finn (55:05.867)
Pretty sweet.

Finn (55:09.767)
Yeah. Oh, I appreciate it. Well, yeah, Hayden, I, I appreciate the time. Um, we'll make sure to link to all of your social media and the show notes, wishing you the best of like a black Canyon. You, you were an open book today. We can't thank you enough. I got it. I got to read you a tweet by the way. You'll, you'll, you'll find this funny. Um, because the Olympic marathon trials are happening tomorrow and I follow the Hanson's distance project account on Twitter and the person who runs it.

wrote quote, there are four categories to consider when elite runners say quote unquote, training is going well. One, they're telling the truth. Two, they're trying to keep the competition in the dark. Three, they're trying to convince themselves or four, they're trying to keep their sponsors happy. I felt like you told the truth and yeah, I appreciate you so thank you so much.

Hayden Hawks (56:01.138)
Yeah, thanks man. And it is the truth. You know, be ready for Black Canyon because it's gonna be a fun show and I think everybody's gonna wanna tune into that one and watch it because we're gonna have a good time out there on the trails.