Eric LiPuma | 2023 80K World Trail Championship Recap

Welcome back, or welcome to, the single track podcast. I'm your host, finn Melanson, and in this episode, eric Lapuma returns to the show to debrief his seventh place finish at the 80k World Trail Championships in Innsbruck, austria, this past week. Also, he discusses his next moves for his racing season here in 2023. Before we get started, though, this episode is brought to you by Rabbit Features and Morton. Use code single track 20 for trail apparel on the rabbit website. Use code single track 20 also on the Features website for trail socks, and we have more details to come on that Morton partnership. With that, let's get started. Eric Lapuma, welcome back to the single track podcast and, i should add, thank you for serving your country so well two years in a row now.

Thank you, finn, it's great to be back.

I was just thinking about this before we hit record sort of, about how the universe works and it's crazy. You were on the pod about six or seven weeks ago We'll link to it in the show notes and at the time you were still debating whether you'd be doing the Canyon's 100k and aiming for a golden ticket to Western States instead of heading to worlds. How much of a butterfly effect are we looking at here? Does this just slightly alter your current 2023 season or did it create some bigger ripple effects and how you imagine the rest of your ultra trail running career panning out?

I think it's definitely had a pretty big impact in just like how I think about myself as a runner. I'd have no regrets about not running Canyon's 100k, because now that I've run this it's kind of changed the way that I think I guess, just what the kind of races I like to do. I've always thought of myself as like a fast 50k, fast 50 mile guy, like more runnable stuff. but after Thailand going well and this going well, i kind of think of myself more as like a mountain guy, which is kind of always what I wanted to do and it makes me more excited for different kinds of races. I was just so excited about the course in Innsbruck which is something I've not felt in a while. I raced Canyon's, i raced Chuck and I both 50k's, and there was just like something missing leading up to that. I just wasn't excited about the courses, i think because they're not challenging. I like the aspect of the challenge of just the course. Those Canyon's and Chuck and I are both challenging in the way that they have competition, but I like just these crazy courses that are so hard. It makes me just so excited for it and I think going forward I'm going to be seeking out more of those types of races. I'm signed up for CCC in September and then just opening up this whole world of races, i think that I can do well at now, which is really cool.

Yeah, that's awesome and I know that identity shifts are pretty common in running. You see it in track and field and on the roads all the time. Where there's just like at a certain age you see this natural. You know, moving up in distance, if you've gotten everything out of yourself in the 10-care, the half marathon, your coach says, okay, this, so begins the marathon training block. But in your case here it just sounds like it's a pure human interest move, like you probably still could be dabbling in more 50k road stuff, for example. Or, you know, getting ready for your next way to cooler Chuck and that cycle. But this is sort of captivated your soul, am I understanding that correctly?

Yeah, definitely like there's just these like European races with a ton of vert and even the ones the United States like Speed Goad or things like that, are just much more interesting to me now and yeah, i'll still probably do some of the faster 50k's as tune-ups. I'm still interested in running a road marathon at some point, but I think like my big races every year will probably now be focused on these like 80k, 100k races with just like a ton of vert.

How taxing is this type of race? for I know it's different for every athlete, but when you compare this to something that is generally more runnable although we'll talk about that too, because in our post race you were saying I was cruising 630s at certain points of the course but generally speaking, do you have a sense of like how many of these you can do in a particular season, for example?

I think I would only do two probably I think I'll do this and CCC I'm sure you can do more. I like to do well at races and I think for me that takes like a lot of effort and it takes a lot of focus. So like I think if I were to try to squeeze one more of these in, it might just be too much like, and I also want to have like a long career doing this and I get worried about either getting hurt or just like I don't know. Like stuff like chronic fatigue syndrome and stuff like that kind of always scares me, so I never want to do like too many races over 50 miles in a year. But that being said, there's so much more hiking, yeah. So like I don't feel really that beat up right now, except for my toes, like they just got destroyed from the downhill, like I've lost, i think, three toenails since Friday. So yeah it's. I think there's a lot of effects on your body that you don't necessarily feel from these kinds of races.

For any listeners and viewers that don't have the context. You also took care of business in a similar fashion at 2022, thailand taking seventh overall there. Does this latest world championship experience and effort, the race in general does it feel any different from last year's experience in Thailand for you?

Yeah, it felt a lot more competitive this time. Not that Thailand wasn't competitive, but I think Austria was just a whole another level just between competition and like the way the race was set up. I felt like I was at like the Iron Man World Championships or something.

Really.

Yeah, everything was just really really well done, like there was a concert afterwards, just like the whole downtown Innsbruck was there for this race, and it was really really cool.

I was. Dan Kurt sent me a video of that concert. It looked kind of like Coachella in Innsbruck. It was wild.

Dude, it was so cool. I had such a good time there. There was just stuff to do all the time. Like I don't live in a city, i live in a pretty rural area and I think part of me misses like just being able to walk the things and kind of just doing stuff whenever and there's always something going on. So it was like actually kind of relaxing for me to be there because it I was just able to have so much fun. That's awesome.

Well, i want to get into Innsbruck stuff in more depth in a second, but we've started to piece together your background over the last three appearances you've made in the pod and I do want to backtrack a bit here. I was just thinking about your progression in the sport and how, in my opinion, 2023 and 2022 have been pivotal years for you in terms of name recognition and world stage type results, and it seems like there's been just like this, like increasing inertia around your career as well, and so it makes me wonder, like, how important is it to quote, unquote be on a roll from a result standpoint? like, are you somebody that that needs this history of continual progression to have confidence heading into a race in a particular moment? or are you someone that can rely on clear fitness evidence in your present training block? like, how do you think about all that?

I like both things, like being on a roll for me just gives me yeah, it gives me confidence and it makes me feel good. Like every day in my training I'm like alright, like I'm doing something right, like everything feels good, like I just did well at a race, like I'll probably do well at the next race too. But it's also, i guess this year and last year I've been able to just like think about the process more, and I know everybody says that, but I've just been kind of like enjoying my training and enjoying like getting things out of myself during training that I that I haven't before. So I think both of those things are pretty important.

When you think about, for example, your seventh place finished last year, does that generally give you confidence for this year's event, or does it is there sort of like this specter of pressure from? it's like, oh, because I got seventh in last year's race pressure's on and all I can think about is replicating that result or being in in the category of that result somehow.

I felt a lot of pressure, definitely just because I, like I've been on four US teams two road ultras, two trail and I've scored every time. So I I feel a lot of pressure to score, which is good like you should aspire to score at these things and I feel a lot of pressure to like, yeah, to replicate that seventh place that I got in Thailand. But I mean, one of these days I'm not gonna score on one of these teams. So like, that's okay too, like the, the pressure doesn't drive me crazy. I think it's just something that motivates me.

I feel like when you get to and I know that we don't really have like a precedent for this, but I feel like when you get to, sort of like your legacy is cemented and you can just be kind of like the Mr reliable, you know, type, avatar and whatever happens from here on out, like you got those two in a row, it's kind of like these NBA players that are trying to build their legacies. Like you got your two. You're a vet now, you know.

Yeah, i mean I being known as somebody who's reliable at these events. I think that's All I aspire to be.

When you think about, if you like, scanned the your career to date. Is there any particular race or training block that you can point to that gave you particular confidence and ability to do what you've done in Thailand and Innsbruck? Or has it been kind of like this Multi year progression where it'd be hard to say any particular year was a breakout year for you? Like you've had very few hiccups, like I looked at ultrasound, maybe 2018, leadville, maybe a few others, but you've been again. You've been consistent throughout the entire arc of the career, so talk about that 2018, leadville was so bad.

I had such a hard time there. I'll go back there someday, But yeah please. That's. That's a funny memory. Um, yeah, i think this past training block was by far my best and it's just been kind of rolling since the winter. Like I just really upped my volume. And then the past few weeks before Innsbruck, i upped my vert too And it was just doing like stuff that I hadn't normally done. Like, for me, if I'm getting 18,000 plus feet in a week, like that's a lot, for some people that might not be that much, but I think I got up to like 23, 24,000 one week and just felt really strong. Like I think I was talking to maybe Dan Kurtz and I said something like I don't feel fast right now, but I feel like the terminator for like these kind of like long mountain events, because I just felt like I could just go forever, like, and I the training I do for these races is like the majority of it is on camel sump, which is a 4000 footer we have here in Vermont. It's only 10 minutes from my house, so it's just really easy for me to train on that, but it's incredibly technical, incredibly hard. Most of the routes on there are on the long trail, which is just it's just such an old trail and it's really really hard to run And I did. I submitted it like eight times in three different runs, which is a lot for me. It's a lot for anybody to do on camel sump, but it just gave me so much confidence because I know no race I'm going to do. It's going to be as technical as camel sump And if I'm able to feel good on that, i think I can pretty much feel good on anything.

At least on camera and it could. It could have been different off camera, but at least on camera. Compared to Zach and Drew, you looked the less the least wrecked Like. It almost looked like you had stopped at Nade Station and you maybe could have gone another 10 or 20 K. Maybe you could have gone the 100 mile distance, I don't know. A was did a did a? the image match reality. How'd you feel there? Is what I'm describing true or was it something else?

No, it's definitely true I thought about that the past few days that I do feel confident in my ability to run 100 K to 100 mile now, which I haven't felt in years, and it's kind of something I've focused on in the past years. I stopped signing up for hundreds so that I could just focus on getting good at that kind of thing and feeling good at these longer distances. I wish that I could have found that last gear to keep up with Drew and Zach at the end. We were together until like maybe a mile and a half to the finish and then they just they put about a minute on me. Within that time I just, for some reason, was having trouble running that fast downhill at that point. But yeah, I think I I felt great. I definitely could have kept running And I was feeling particularly good on the climbs at that point, which is really exciting for me, like I can't wait to run a race longer than 100 K one of these years, maybe next year.

You started to talk about some of the specifics of your training block there And in our first or maybe it was our second interview you talked about how the Northeast was a sneaky good place to train for these European races. There's also a great trail runner Mag interview you did with Abby Levine, which we'll link to in the show And as it kind of touches on this as well. But in addition to Campbell's Hum, the long trail, mount Mansfield, all these great mountains that you have access to in that Northwest Vermont area, go into as much detail as you as you want about sort of your training philosophy. That kicked in after Chuck and that preparing for this race, like the type of workouts you were doing, more of the terrain you were preparing on any other key long runs. Yes, i think. Ultimately, what I want to know, and I think what the audience wants to know, is like do you feel like your thesis about the Northeast being this ideal training hub for your your braces? Like, has that panned out or is it panning out in your opinion?

Yeah, i do think so. I think the one thing that I wasn't prepared for is that here we have stuff that is as steep as the stuff in Europe, but we have more rocks. So you're often landing flat footed instead of your foot being angled and your toes sliding forward in your shoe. So that's the only thing I think I need to work on, and I think there are places I can get that here, just like on, like the Gondola Road and things. I like the workouts. So one thing like that has helped me a lot is that I have started working with a coach in like I think February started working with Korean Malcolm, and that's helped a ton.

Yeah.

I have had coaches before, but the past few years I kind of just wanted to do my own thing, kind of when COVID started. So what she's been having me do generally is like everything is time based, which has been hard for me and my, my, my mild based brain. But what I do is I do. What the hell do I do? I do a threshold workout every week, which I have been doing on hilly terrain lately. The whole winter I did it on flat or kind of rolling hills on the roads because we can't get on the trails. And then I've been doing kind of like steady states within my long runs, so like I'll put in like a 40 minute to a one hour push on one of the trails on Camelshump And then, like every once in a while, she'll give me my long run in terms of miles And then I'll go do that like on a trail and it'll take me like four or five or six hours, something like that. But yeah, one of the key long runs I did was I ran this route called the four humped camel on Camelshump. So you summit Camelshump four sides from each of the four trails that goes up it And then you have to go down each and like you finish back where you started. I think it's like 25 miles or with like 10,000 feet of gain, something like that, and like half of it's on the long trail. It's really cool like super technical terrain. And then I think, like the next week I was tapering and I did just like a 10 or 12 mile run, but with a four mile kind of little push in it, and I did that on the road and I was running like I think I averaged like 520 pace for that but was closing, like I just felt like I could run so fast, like I closed in a 510 mile I think or something like that. So it's that combination, i think, of keeping your speed, keeping your running legs, which I do by running the dirt roads a lot. So I still get vert, but I'm still actually running pretty fast.

Yeah.

And then getting these like super technical routes in, where you're just out there for time and you're out there kind of just like wrecking your body for a little bit. I think that's what has helped me succeed, is that I still do both, like I still do fast road stuff, but I also focus on these really technical mountain routes.

This is a question that just comes to mind and I'm sure it's an interesting dilemma for a coach like Corrine to work with, but, like you mentioned the downhill work that needs to be done in general, at the stage of your career where you are with the sport, are you finding that you're fighting for like single and even half digit percentage points of improvement In all your areas of running, or do you still feel like there are these high margin areas of improvement that you can make in any given training block for a race?

I don't think there's that much low hanging fruit at this point. I think it's all like small percentage increases, like I've got the nutrition figured out. I've got most things figured out. I think the low hanging fruit for me is doing all the little things, like doing the strength work, doing the stretching, just like figuring out why certain things feel certain ways, because I'm something like I've never been injured before, i'm pretty solid, but I do have these just like small little things that sometimes bug me And I mean I think if I can figure those out, that might be something that actually kind of brings me to that next level, because honestly, i don't really do that much of that stuff. But now, like in between now and CCC, like I want to get a gym membership, i want to be doing all the little tiny things that like just watching Adam Mary, like he's started doing that stuff And I think he's he's had like an unbelievable year And I think I mean he's always been a great runner but I think him doing all those little things has really taken him to the next level And that's been really inspiring for me. So he's a great example. Yeah, he's like the perfect example And all those guys in Boulder are doing all those little things it looks like. So yeah, like that's. That's the only low hanging fruit. I think that I have right now that I can really work on.

Another thank you to sponsor HVMN. Hvmn is my choice for exogenous ketones. If you are curious about using exogenous ketones in your training, racing and day to day life, head over to HVMNcom. get a bottle of ketone IQ And if you want a 20% discount in the process, use code single track 20 at checkout for 20% off your next order. Last time we chatted you had mentioned that you recently left your graphic design job and you're able to devote a lot more time to recovery and, yeah, just getting ready for like each run of the week. How has that experiment gone? I know that you're in the market for work, but, like, given that CCC is such an important race, do you have any interest in extending that sabbatical to devote even more of yourself and to recover from Innsbruck and, you know, to get like, put yourself in a position to get like a really great result there?

Yeah, I think I probably will not get a full-time job until after CCC, unless something perfect came around. I have been applying for a lot of jobs but it's like just like these kind of stretch jobs that like I really want to do, but I'm probably not that qualified. Like I need to work on my portfolio a little bit more so that it's not just all alcohol like out beer labels and stuff. So, yeah, I'm not gonna be homeless if I don't get a job before CCC, So ideally I will not be working before then, but then after that, like it's gonna be go time for me to just start working again.

All right. Last question on the training front. I'm sure people are starting to connect the dots between your performance and where you live to train for it. Are you starting to field any phone calls or texts or emails from we'll call them trail running mecha speculators inquiring about Northern Vermont?

Not yet. I hope that happens, though. I think Abby talked about this in that article. She wrote a little bit. She talked to my girlfriend, joanna, and Joanna kind of gave insight into like how I actually feel. I think And the one thing that I would really really like to have here is just more of a community, and like I have friends here that I run with, but there's not that many people who focus on competitive ultra running. We have like a lot of people focused on just ultra running in general And kind of like that more, and there's nothing wrong with this. It's just like it's not exactly what I'm interested in all the time. It's just more of like that entry level kind of like trail running groups and things, which is great, but like I'm really missing like my community of people that like I can talk about races with and I can go to races with and stuff like that. So yeah, i mean it would be pretty awesome if we got more of a competitive scene out here and more people wanted to move here. I mean I know Dan Kurtz is interested in that too, and him and Ben Tru have. Like the whole Northwoods athletics that we're all part of is kind of based around like trying to get people into New England to run with us, and I do think it's only a matter of time before that happens. Like it is a really great place to train And I think people just need to give it a chance. Like it's kind of perfect here in a lot of senses. Like we're missing a couple of things that people are really like, like altitude, and our trail routes aren't quite as expansive, which is something that drives me crazy. Like I understand if people don't want to live here because of that, but I do think there's a lot of opportunity for people to move here and get a lot better.

That's something I think about so much, though It's been a constant theme of the show. You take someone like you, your caliber of runner. If you insert an Eric Lapuma into, for example, that Boulder Boys group, or even here in Salt Lake, we would love. By the way, if you're interested in moving back west, there is a absolutely thriving yet underground scene in Salt Lake City. Come on out here. We'll make a whole present, we'll make a deck, we'll make a deck and pitch it to you.

I love all the Salt Lake people. I hung out with a bunch of them in Innsbruck. I would move there. Those people are all like Garrett Corcoran is like.

Yep Caleb.

Caleb.

Grayson.

Yeah, Grayson Mike and Leah Mike, yes You, yeah, Salt Lake's pretty cool. I would support that.

So if anybody in Salt Lake wants to give me a job, We'll put a meeting on your calendar, i'll make a pitch deck, we'll pitch you, we'll get something going, but anyways. But I think all the time about these improvement margins, like if there's any one area where an athlete like you who is so well established could improve, maybe it is in that group running context, like how much better would your long runs be, how much better would a particular threshold run be, how much would you stand to benefit just from that group of fact of everybody pulling each other on a particular workout?

Yeah, I love that kind of stuff And I do have some people that I run with here, A lot of like the Green Mountain Athletic Association guys I'll get out with and it helps my motivation so much And some of them are starting to do more trail races. But, yeah, like having a group like the guys in Boulder or the people in Salt Lake, that would help me like so much. I had such a fun time in Innsbruck just having people to run with whenever I wanted And it really made me miss having that community aspect. Yeah, I think that's huge, Like if you're getting out with your friends all the time and just running it helps everybody get better Dude.

I'll have our people call your people. This would be such a recruitment win for us. So good to know you're on the market and I'll be working on getting you out here in whatever late fall, 2023 or turn of the year. Okay, talking about Innsbruck, you mentioned that there were differences between Thailand and Innsbruck this time around in terms of, like that, professionalism ambiance. Talk a bit, though, about the team dynamic heading into this race and the relationships you built with people like Caleb Drew, zach Preston. Did you feel like the camaraderie was there to a similar extent like it was for the team visor experience the previous year? I know that's a tough comparison, but did you feel like there were motions in place to make it feel similarly fun?

Yeah, well, for one thing, I was the only person who wore the visor this year, so I was a little upset about that, but it's okay. Actually, garrett Garrett did wear a visor for the 40K, so that was kind of a win. Yeah, no, i mean, it's kind of a similar thing, like I'm now friends with all those guys. You always become pretty good friends, i think, with your roommate. So my roommate at the hotel was Zach, so I feel like I got to know him really well. He's I think he's just like such a nice dude. Like he helped myself, he helped multiple people with like the required gear. I ended up ordering the wrong jacket before the race, like it. Just it was water resistant but not waterproof. So last minute, like he gave me one of his jackets and just let me keep it, and like there were three other people on the team I think that didn't have the right jacket And of course he brought like seven so that everybody would have one. Yeah, and then hanging out with Drew was cool, like I had met him once before, and I think we probably ran like 25 or 30 miles of the course together, pressing to Caleb, like I didn't run too much with them on the course, but like we were having breakfast together most days, like they all came into Zach and I's room, we watched the 40 K live on a live stream. Like we all hung out yeah, got meals together. We all hung out in Innsbruck, like walked around after the ceremonies and stuff. So it was a lot of fun, yeah, and I think it was. It was probably similar to like the dudes in Thailand, but I think the difference was going into Thailand. I don't think any of us even had a team medal on our minds This time. I think, especially because we were supposed to have Jim Wamsley on the team as well, i think everybody was thinking that we were gonna back up our gold, and I think we probably would have, because we only got second by five minutes. So this time I think there was definitely that kind of not pressure but added thought that like all right, like we want a medal, we want to do really well as a team, which is cool, and I really liked that. It was just something a little bit different. Like last year. I kind of felt like we were all just like this group of like random dudes kind of that stumbled into a gold medal. This year I think there was definitely some desire to do really well.

That reminds me. Do you have any strong opinions on that time-based versus place-based scoring setup for Worlds?

Yeah, i like the time-based. I think it's cool Because if you end up having a guy who's really good and wins like I'm blanking on the guy from France who won what his name was. He was a nice dude, but he won by, i think the next dude was like 10 minutes behind him maybe. I think I was like like all the Americans were like 20 ish minutes behind him. Like, if you have a dude who's beating all the Americans by 20 minutes, like France probably does deserve to win And Adam beat all the guys by pretty much, by maybe even a bigger margin in Thailand. So I do like that Cause. If you have a ringer like you have really good chance at winning, which is pretty cool.

I know there are probably many too many particular moments from the race to walk us into, but maybe take us into one or two, maybe three key moments of the race that you felt were instrumental in not just you getting seventh place but you, zach and Drew finishing in succession. I know Drew, for example, mentioned that halfway through the race he met up with you and you helped work him through a tough spot, for example. So anything like that that contributed to the ultimate result.

Yeah, my plan the entire time was to just latch myself onto Drew and going into that that was my plan, just cause I respect his race strategies. I think he's a really, really smart runner and he's just, he's a nice dude to run with. So I caught up to him like a couple of miles in. I was kind of boxed in at the start I was pretty far back, which is probably a good thing, and then we ran together for a while. He dropped me going up a climb I can't remember how far in. But then, yeah, i caught back up to him at an aid station and I had thought like all right, like did he like get lost? or something Like why am I back here with him? And then as soon as I saw him, it just kind of got me back into the race, cause I was in a rough period before that I think it might have been from the altitude cause we were kind of up high for a while.

Yeah.

And I'm just not used to that. So I saw him and then all of a sudden I'm like I'm still in this, like we're doing really well and we're running together like we can roll, and then that section was kind of like rolling hills a little bit more runnable, some trail, some road, but we got cooking Like we were just, we were flying. There were yeah, there were a bunch of sections where you're running under seven minute miles, which like as I'm saying that and like that sounds really slow, but when you're like 40 miles in like it really felt like we were, like we were passing people. It was so much fun, Like that was really motivating. And then we got through the final climb and like just having Drew there, like when he would hike, i would hike, when he would run, i would run and it really really helped push me. And then I took the lead for a while like thought I had lost Drew, but then he caught back back up in the final descent. Then we heard that Zach was only a little bit in front of us And like in my mind, like I mean, zach is one of the greats, he's one of the best to ever do it, and in my head I'm like dude, i'm back to roll up on Zach Miller, like this is, this is really cool. I was bummed because I was hoping that he had like caught up to the top three or something. But I mean it was that's pretty cool for me to catch up to him, so like that that encouraged me to, and then, like I just didn't quite have that final gear to sprinted in with them. But coming in only a minute behind those guys is just really cool for me because I have so much respect for both of them as runners. Yeah, I think just those miles spent with Drew, like that's the, that's what pushed me, that I hope I pushed him to. I think I did and we probably cut off a solid chunk of time because we did that and I think that's a great strategy for teams moving forward is find a buddy like latch onto them and just help push each other, And I mean it ends up looking really cool, Like when you got three dudes from the USA like rolling down this final hill together, And it's just a great strategy for like the way that the scoring works to. But yeah, those dudes really pushed me.

What do you, what do you see as Zach and Drew's superpowers or strengths that help pull you or push you in tough moments?

Drew is just really strong, very smart, so I know if I'm running with him, i know that I'm not running out of my ability And just also probably like the nicest guy and ultra running just like super supportive, wants people to do well And I think like that kind of personality works really well with mine. so he's I just enjoy running with somebody like that. Zach is just inspiring and runs the races the way that he wants to run them and is just really good. I mean, everybody's first like introduction to ultra running is either his that video, the Nike team in like 2015 at UTMB, or Miller versus Hawks at TNF 50. So like yep, the dude's just super inspiring and he's also just really helpful and like wants other people to do well. Just like also one of the nicest dudes in ultra running, which makes me really bum to see like two dudes on Twitter trying to cancel him for dumping water on himself.

And the worst part about that too is, you know, twitter thrives on the outrage machine and just taking things out of context, and I think I put up a retweet of it saying I disagree with this take. It was just the wrong take and I'm not even sure I want to link to it in the show and I don't want to further drag Zach through the mud, but that was. That was such a bummer to see.

Yeah, i mean I. What I should add to that is that, like every single person I saw was doing the same exact thing, he's just the one that got caught on video and I'll say I don't think there's anything wrong with any of us doing that.

So No, it's a world championship event. This is not. Yeah, agree, maybe a couple more more things on the race. Take us into any interesting or memorable post race scenes. It could be conversations you have with Zach drew the rest of the team, conversations with you know, paul Kirsch, tom Hooper, friends, family anything that you think the audience would be interested in getting keyed into.

Yeah, i think some of my best memories from post race for just hugging those dudes like Zach and drew after I finished. Worse memory was getting drug tested because it took me two hours to pee, but after that I got back, or maybe an hour and a half to be two hours is exaggerating it. But then I got out and then we're all hanging out just like in kind of like this athlete area where we could kind of just finally sit. We could all tell stories about the day And what did we do to be good dinner that night. I don't remember what we did. I probably had a beer or something. I know that we got pizza a couple nights like I guess nothing like really sticks out that much. I got a lot of ice cream, i got apple strudels, things like that.

I always forget that at the end of these things you are to a large extent, even if you look good, you're trash right in the first thing you want to do is like you want to get horizontal sleep, relax, eat So it's not like it's not like you're continuing on this epic journey.

No, but I mean Tom Hooper sat with me the whole time that I had to pee because you like, you're allowed to have like somebody from USATF come with you And just make sure that they're doing everything right. So that was. that's a good memory I'll have. is him waiting for me like I was laying on the ground because apparently that like puts pressure on your bladder and makes you pee faster? Yeah, no, i mean, like one of the most fun things is closing ceremony, where everybody goes get up on stage. It was the day after our event. it's after the classic race, so they do the awards for the long trail in the classic And then you start trading gear with all the other countries. so everybody's just like taking their clothes off and like trading like their pants or their shirts, and I think drew got like a messy shirt from Argentina like the soccer player. Yeah, that was fun. And then David Kilgore was there and Peter and they both had like these giant growlers of beer from the supermarket, so we were all just passing that around. I forgot my athlete credentials, so I just showed my medal to like the person working at the beer counter and they gave me a free beer, which was pretty clutch. Yeah, he ended up just everybody just hangs out, everybody's super friendly and we all just have a good time.

You had mentioned earlier in the conversation that this did feel the Innsbruck felt like like a step function higher than Thailand. There was more professionalism around, maybe more of a hype ish ambiance Do you feel like in general, like even moving from here to 2025 and beyond that, there's more momentum for the world championships, particularly among athletes? like what are your thoughts there? like, where do we go from here? What are some things you're excited about in the years to come around this event? It's place in the sport, all that kind of stuff.

I think the momentum is going to keep going. I think because the next race is 2025 in Spain, in the Pyrenees, and I think that's just another one of these runner destinations where people are going to want to race there. I don't know the course yet. I've heard rumors that it's even harder than Innsbruck, which I mean that might just be totally false, because who knows if they even made the courses yet. But I think people are going to want to make these teams and I like that. It's back to every other year now, so people can do alright, i'm going to focus on Western States this year or UTMB Next year. I'm going to do Worlds. I mean I know Drew and Zach are both interested I'm sure Caleb and Preston are too of making that next team And I think, like I mean, this year we saw how competitive it was to make this team. I think they're just going to be getting harder and harder to make, which is how it should be. Like I want us to send the best possible team to Spain because I want to get that gold medal back from France and the team competition. But I mean, in my mind, worlds is cool now. I think it's as competitive as this was more competitive in CCC. I think it's more competitive than Western States too for like top 10. Well, it's like. People just need to realize this. This is one of the most competitive races in the world and if you do well there like it's equivalent to doing well at some of these other big name events. But this race is like it's funded. You get a free trip to Innsbruck to do this, you get the US kit, you get all this stuff. It's really cool the opportunity that we have through this World Championship team, and I hope it leads to more like Roadrunners coming in too and being like alright, i can't make the US team for the marathon, but I might be able to do it for this And I who knows if they'll be able to, but I just want there to be more depth like and people trying to make these teams. I think it has the opportunity to be one of the coolest events in the world, and I think it already is. Just other people need to realize that.

And I would just add 100% agree. by the way, i would just add to that, from a fan standpoint, we are always searching for more features in this sport to improve, like the entertainment part of the product, and I think that the team aspect is so compelling, like when you talk about keying off Drew and Zach and, you know, pushing a little harder on this uphill because you know the context of what's at stake in terms of the team medal and stuff like that. It's so I find that so compelling and there's a reason why I think other sports have an advantage in terms of larger fan bases and I think the team element is a really key variable. so I hope that this race grows in popularity because that's there for the taking.

Yeah, i agree with that. Both these teams, like all those guys from Thailand, all of them from Innsbruck, are like they're just my friends now, so like there really is that aspect of camaraderie, that like you'll go there and some of these are some of like you're going to be telling stories about these people for the rest of your life and I think it just makes a lot of really good memories, which is something I'm interested in. so hopefully more people are too.

You had mentioned at the beginning of the conversation that with these 80k, 100k, 100 mile mountain type events you probably only want to do two year and that in that number may vary slightly, might be one a year to three or four year for some athletes, but it's minimal right like your own. This is a special thing. You're only doing it a couple times year. It's taxing. Given all that, now that we have this two year window before the next world championships, in your opinion, how far in advance should the team USA team be put together and why?

I think it depends if we can get more funding. So I think it's France. In Italy they have like training camps. They got to Innsbruck a couple weeks before, so that obviously helps you to get better. But it also helps you to make better bonds with your teammates and just be in a better state of mind, like you're more relaxed. You've been there longer. Like we got there. I got there a little over a week earlier, but that's not fully covered, like I had to pay for that for the couple days I was there. I mean, it wasn't expensive because we stayed in an Airbnb with like six people, but It just kind of adds to everything. So I think if we can get more funding and we can create these teams I mean we didn't know the teams until maybe two months before the event maybe not even If we could have them like six months in advance, which we can in Spain, because there may be a little bit less, like four months in advance I think it will only help because that races the end of September. But I think we'll only help create better bonds between the runners, have better training opportunities, because like I mean guy like Drew Preston or Caleb ran Lake Sonoma like only I don't know a couple of months before this event. So like that's, of course, not optimal And like they probably like a slightly different training block because Lake Sonoma isn't quite a mountain race. Yeah, i mean I'm all for doing it as early as possible, as long as we have time to hold these qualifying races at like the correct venue. How about?

in terms of build, like the how to for building the team. Are you in the camp of more auto qualifiers? Are you in the camp of more resume selections? somewhere in between? Where do you stand on all that and why?

I think somewhere in between. I mean obviously, like I got on by resume, so I like the resume selections because I didn't have to go fly out to Lake Sonoma. It's not convenient for me But I do like the head to head racing when there are USA team spots available. I think it would be cool to have maybe a couple more qualifiers And I think like I mean obviously like Drew got on from Lake Sonoma, he did awesome, but I don't think that Lake Sonoma really makes sense for a race in Innsbruck And I understand why they did Lake Sonoma. We just didn't have another really like 50 mile to hold it, because the race was in June. Like you're not going to have a 50 mile race in December. So we were kind of limited. But I think it would be cool to like I mean, broken arrow is always a good qualifier, but it's only 50 K, so like maybe keep that for the 40 K team. But I think it'd be cool to have like these qualifiers maybe up two or three for each event And then the rest is all resume, but only the top guy Makes the team. It's so interesting.

I was trying to rack my brain for races that would be solid qualifiers for Spain 2025. And it's tough because we don't have many 100 Ks here in the US, So that that's. it's tough to match the distance one for one not to mention the terrain. We do have a lot of 50 miles, which I think could be a pretty neat way to qualify. I came up just in these like two minutes. I came up with San Juan Solana. I think that could be. It's a super local race in the SWAT range. That was Colorado, But I think the profile of that race could be could be interesting. Yeah, i agree. Are there any races that come to mind for you?

I mean Speed. Goat, it's a little short but I think, since, like Speed Goat, the rut, and what makes these they might be short, but what makes them good, is that they're competitive without being US selection races, so people want to come do these races like and this is nothing against Breakneck Point. I mean that was insanely competitive this year and was super cool. I think without it being a US selection race you're not going to get quite the depth. So I think races like the rut, speed Goat, san Juan, solstice only because it's a bucket list race of mine. The only problem is that it's at altitude, so like not, you might not get the like. It's not really fair for everybody, but maybe that's just the way it goes. Broken Arrow, of course, like amazing event. I'm sure I'm missing some. I'm struggling right now. I'm struggling for an exact one-to-one match.

And I think it's part of the nature of just the events we have in the US. It's not a direct comparison.

Yeah, i think maybe, if like Ian from Red Newt Racing could make Breakneck like longer somehow, which he could, like he's just had another loop in there. That would probably be a very good selection race again, just because it's not at altitude, it's kind of gnarly terrain, like it's got history of being a selection race, so that might work. I think I got one. There's this, so it's that Western Mountain, western Maine.

Western New Hampshire racing group. They have this race called the Jigger Johnson. Oh my God, it's a point to point. You'll find this If you don't know what it's wild, it's a 50 mile, it's a 50 mile race, It's like 50 miles 19 cave climbing 38 cave total elevation change. And I think you start and I'm going to butcher this You start somewhere in the Pinkham Notch area. I know for sure you finish in Waterville Valley. Actually, maybe you finish start in center Conway and you go over like the moats And then you do this like kind of like button hook and you finish in Waterville Valley. There That is such a gnarly race. Maybe that's, maybe that's the one, maybe the Northeast gets another qualifier race and it's a 50 mile race. So I have heard of this race.

I've looked into doing it. I'm not signed up because it's not competitive yet, so I just don't have that much interest in doing it. The things I want to change about that race and I'm not a race director, so this is just my hot takes. They have a 100 K and they have a 50 mile that are very similar. I think they need to combine them. Those are way too similar in distance And so just like they're both going to become a race And so just like they're both going to be kind of watered down, i think there's also a 50 K, but like that's different distance, like doesn't matter. I think it's also one of those races that is hard for the sake of being hard, like there are some like kind of silly out in backs and things like that which might be cool, like it's a beautiful area in New Hampshire. But I think if they can just like slightly refine that course, i can't think of anything harder than that race in the United States And I'm not. I hope nobody takes those criticisms in the wrong way.

They're good, they're fair.

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's really cool. I think, with Aravipe being involved with that, it's only going to make it better. Yep, I was really excited to hear that that they're working with white mountain endurance now. Yeah, dude, That when that race becomes competitive and maybe I have to do it to be the first mover- be the first mover. Be the first mover maybe to help popularize it a little bit. That raise is going to be cool.

Alright, eric, this has been an awesome conversation, as always. Last question or last topic I have for you Obviously, ccc is the next big thing on the docket. Walk us through some of the ways you're going to structure your summer, like how long this recovery process extends for when you start hard training. Are you going to head over there early to try to do a training camp? Like, talk about that stuff.

So Corinne only has on my schedule so far for this week just walking my dog. So I probably won't go for like an actual run until this weekend And even then it's going to be like probably 30 minutes at like, 9 minute miles on the bike path or something. Just get my legs moving. I'll probably ride my bike if it ever stops raining. So the way my summer is going to go is I am signed up for Rage 50K at the beginning of August. I really, really want it's a US 50K champs on the trail. I've won US 50K on the road and I would really love to win US 50K on trail. So I'm probably going to do that. It's just going to depend how I feel. It's only four weeks before CCC, so I don't know if that's enough time, because sometimes ragged is like 90 degrees and that just kind of ruins me for a while. So yeah, these next few weeks I'm just going to kind of slowly get back into it. I'm going to focus on doing like whatever I want to do, like fun trail stuff, or I'm just going to run on dirt roads, like whatever I feel like doing. I won't race for a little bit. I'll probably end up volunteering at like. There's this race in Richmond called the Eliza LaPierre Fan Club 50K. It's kind of like a under the radar race that just honors Eliza LaPierre, because she lives in the same town as me and she's kind of like the queen of Vermont, i think Legend. So I'll probably volunteer. I wanted to race, but I'll probably just volunteer and watch my friends, yeah. And then July I'll have to. I'll probably go out to the White Mountains a lot because they'll be all melted out Probably, get in a couple of panty loops, a couple presidential traverses, yeah, but most would be stuff like that. I've there's this route here called the Manhump Challenge which is running for Mansfield to Camelsump. I'll probably do that, like just some of these kind of fun local routes that are also really difficult. I would love to get to Cheminey as early as possible. I'm thinking at least two weeks there, but I would like I mean ideally I'd get there earlier, just so I can kind of see the sights run with people kind of run the whole course. That's going to depend on, like I mean I don't have a job, so like that's kind of expensive to do, so if I can figure out a cheaper way to do that, i'll get there as early as possible, but most likely I will be in like the Cheminey area for two weeks. I think my parents are going to come, so I might be able to or I'll definitely be able to stay with them, which would help me do this, and it's that's something that I know a lot of people don't have, so I'm pretty thankful that they're so supportive of me.

I feel like such a disillusioned veteran of the sport saying this, but if you can avoid shacking up in Cheminey and like heading to one of the smaller towns to like get out of like the hustle and bustle and I don't know even core my air, i actually think now, having been there twice, i think it's a good move.

Okay, i mean, that's you've. you're not the first person to say that to me. this week. I talked to a few people because I need to get on renting something. I'm probably going to stay in core my air for a few nights before the race, since that's where CCC starts. I've heard that it's a pain in the butt to get between core my air and Cheminey. There's some like mega toll. It's like 50 bucks or something. Yeah, you got the tunnel. Yeah, everybody I've talked to says to stay like in one of the little villages and that's kind of more my speed. I think I would love to stay in Cheminey for a couple nights, because I do love that community aspect of just like everybody's everywhere. It's really exciting. Yeah, i can't wait for that. I can't wait to hang out with everybody there. It just looks so beautiful, like in my mind right now in Sprook is the epitome of cool and everybody's telling me that sham is even cooler. So I can't wait to see it.

Awesome. Well, Eric, once again, thank you so much for the time coming on the podcast debriefing the world champs experience and giving us a little bit of a peek into what CCC looks like. Any final thoughts or calls to action for listeners that come to mind before we close up here?

Yeah, i mean, if anybody is ever interested in like they're kind of toying around with the idea of moving to the Northeast, just like reach out to me. Or if you ever want to talk about skateboarding or like my nerdy hobbies like Warhammer 40k, just send me a message because I like, i really like talking to people.

Thanks for listening. Before we sign off, if you are a fan of the show, please consider supporting us with a rating and a review in your podcast player, a donation on Patreon or the use of our sponsor discount codes in the show notes. We really appreciate your support. Thank you so much for listening And until next time. I'm your host, finn Milanson, and you have been listening to the single track podcast.