Emkay Sullivan | 2024 Black Canyon 100K Pre-Race Interview

Finn (00:00.942)
MK Sullivan, it is a pleasure to have you on the Singletrack Podcast. How are you doing today?

EmKay Sullivan (00:05.581)
I am doing wonderful. How are you?

Finn (00:08.278)
I'm doing great. We were just talking offline about sort of like the world of podcasting and setups and you're building a pretty cool studio there and it's just fun to riff on that part in addition to the training and the racing in Black Canyon.

EmKay Sullivan (00:18.988)
Yeah, trying to set up a little bit more of a style here, because I never use a background, like Dani always has like Chamonix behind her, but I never ended up doing that. So I'm trying to set up a little bit of a space down here for the sub hub.

Finn (00:34.422)
First time on the podcast, hopefully not last. I feel like there's just stuff I've always wanted to ask you independent of the race at hand. The first is, are you like full time at running? Is this kind of like your profession, your vocation in addition to like your passion and your hobby?

EmKay Sullivan (00:49.54)
Yes, about, oh man, I think it was June of 2022, I quit my job, I was a collegiate coach at the University of Nevada for the men's cross country team and the women's track and field team. And yeah, I did that for three years and was trying to do the running thing at the same time. And then I got my first sponsorship in 2021. And after about a year of working and doing the whole sponsored athlete thing, I-

Talked to my husband, Tommy, and I was like, what if I just gave this a shot? I feel like I've got a really good contract and I'm not taking advantage of it because like collegiate coaching just takes up every single waking moment and weekend of your life. Um, and so, yeah, I retired in June of 2022 and have just been running and still coaching, but online through free trail, um, and not in person anymore.

Finn (01:43.303)
Has it been a good decision, would you say?

EmKay Sullivan (01:45.784)
Yes, I can race a lot more. I can train not necessarily harder, but better maybe. Like my recovery time is definitely better spent. I'm not walking around on the track all day or flying around every weekend. But I think the life balance of being able to race and still spend time like with my family has been a huge part of it for me.

Finn (02:09.754)
Really interesting year last year in my opinion, podiums at Formidable and Canyons, ninth at Worlds, that was an amazing race. And then an interesting second half of the year where it seems like you could chalk it up to injury, maybe fatigue, maybe just like the trials and tribulations of an end to end season, just like a tough day at OCC, not doing CIM. One thing I'm curious about is, did that experience change anything for you in terms of how you build a season moving forward or?

how you think about what races you pick and how you organize your season.

EmKay Sullivan (02:43.336)
It's funny because I wanted it to, but I was like, you know, I'm only going to go to Europe like once next year. And so far I'm going three times, so that hasn't worked out very well. But they are a little bit more spaced out. And I think I'll just be better about, I guess, preemptively taking care of my body in terms of like getting sick. I think I'm one of those people that's always like, if I get sick, you know, whatever, what happens happens. But then at OCC, I got sick and it was...

like my worst nightmare, you know, I dropped out of a race that I had been training for months. And so I think, yeah, every time I travel, I tend to get sick usually on the end of the trip, which has been really lucky, but I think I just have to do a better job of taking care of myself in that sense.

Finn (03:28.77)
I've heard you say on social that 2024 is going to be the kickoff of your quote unquote versatility era. What does that mean?

EmKay Sullivan (03:36.261)
Yeah. So, I mean, Black Canyon is my first ever 100K. The furthest I've ever run in a race is 50K. And the furthest I've ever run in a training run, which was an FKT back in 2020 was 38 miles. Granted that did take me like eight hours. So pretty close to Black Canyon at least, but, um, yeah, I'll be doing Black Canyon 100K to open up the season and then we'll pretty much be doing. OCC will be my longest race.

for the rest of the year at 55K. The rest of them will be marathon, 30K type distance. I might even hop into a Cirque series for the first time, which I'm very excited about. So yeah, I'm gonna be all over the place, but the 100K is definitely the wildest of them all.

Finn (04:19.478)
What prompted the, like why Black Canyon of all the hundred K's out there, of all the hundred mile is out there, like why Black Canyon?

EmKay Sullivan (04:26.968)
Yeah, I, uh, part of it is timing. Just, it felt like a really good way to build my base over the winter. Like, um, none of my training has been that intense compared to if I had been training for half, half marathon on the roads or like a 50 K in California. Um, and so part of it was timing, but the other part of it is that it's the most competitive 100 K in the U S I would say. And my hope is that I don't have to do much thinking, like it'd be really nice to just.

hang on to people who know what they're doing in this distance already instead of choosing 100k where I might have to go out in front and figure it out all by myself.

Finn (05:07.3)
What, like putting your coaching hat on, how do you think about this versatility? Like, what are the pros and cons of, you know, switching between like the Cirque series and the Black Canyon 100K in a single season, maybe peppering in 50Ks? How do you think about that from like a coaching standpoint and like from a career progression standpoint?

EmKay Sullivan (05:26.28)
I mean, I think the only cons is maybe that I can't get too specific on certain races. Like the Cirque Series one will probably be the week before Speed Goat for me, so it'll be more like a tune-up than it will be like a hard race, because even Speed Goat might be a tune-up for OCC. But I think that the big pro for me was that...

It kind of slowed down the first half of my season, because like last year, I think part of the reason that I was kind of burnt at the end of the season was I ran a half marathon in Houston. A month later, I ran formidable. Um, six weeks later, I ran canyons and five weeks after that, I ran worlds, which were all pretty big efforts. Um, and so with black Canyon, I'm doing this really big effort. Um, fortunately, hopefully it's only, you know, nine hours ish. And then.

Finn (06:03.946)
Yeah.

EmKay Sullivan (06:21.024)
I don't have another race until the end of May. And so because I was running this a hundred K I basically had to block off like most of the spring and say like, okay, you can't race. And then that keeps me a little bit more fresh for the second half of the season. Um, when I plan to go back to a little bit of intensity, a little bit of speed and get ready for those shorter races.

Finn (06:32.084)
Yeah.

Finn (06:42.578)
It's such an interesting case study. Obviously I'm stoked to follow your season, but like we just had Rachel Drake on the podcast too. And one of the big storylines for her is the fact that she is coming off CIM, decided to forego the trials. And yeah, it, to me, it'll be fascinating to see how all the work that she put in for CIM and just generally on the roads translates over to Black Canine. I mean, of course she had, you know, two, two and a half months to put, you know, trail specific work in, but like.

to see how quickly you can make the transition. To me as a fan is gonna be fascinating. So in your case too, like this is super exciting.

EmKay Sullivan (07:20.032)
Yeah, I, I'm interested to see how that goes as well. Cause obviously she and I are doing very different training, like in the grand scheme of things there, cause she had the very like intense marathon block. And I'm not, I ended up not doing that. Um, but it's also, it is crazy how quickly like it comes around. Cause I remember I asked my coach about black Canyon, I think in, um, November.

And he was like, yeah, sure. You can do that. And I was like, what? You're going to say yes to this. And then, um, I remember thinking like, I actually don't know that I have enough time for this and he was like, you're going to be fine. And I spent like the first maybe four or five weeks of the training block being like, I don't know that I'm going to be ready, you know, come February 10th. And then I was like six or seven weeks out and I was like, oh my gosh, is this race ever going to come? So it came around way quicker than I thought it would.

Finn (08:12.146)
Yeah.

Finn (08:15.67)
I suppose it's different for everyone, but in the times when you felt the most ready for a race, has it been more due to like, okay, I've put in this much volume or I've gotten this many key workouts in like for you, does it come down to like how much quality you've gotten in or how much like total work you've put in?

EmKay Sullivan (08:32.292)
Um, I like to think that it's mostly total work. I mean, I fortunately am somebody who's not very injury prone. So I've put in a lot of work over the last, I don't know, 10, 12 years of my life with pretty much no injury. Um, but there are certain things that I like to do before races that, um, I know that I'm super ready if it happens. Like before worlds, I did a 10 by K workout on the roads actually, that was just as fast as how.

I had run it before my half marathon at Houston, except that I had done no specific work. And so I was like, oh shit, like I'm ready for this race. Whereas I'm not going to get that this time around because I'm just not doing that kind of work. So I'm trying to focus more on just like the work that I've done over the last like eight weeks.

Finn (09:23.91)
Yeah. I recall from, and I'm going to preface this question. Like I recall from worlds, you ended up passing a lot of people in the final miles of the race to take that ninth spot. It was a really impressive close. And I'm curious, is that characteristic of how you like to race or are you someone that typically likes to lead from the front and you know, you'll worry about attrition later and just kind of see like in a Zach Miller type way, or are you a more conservative racer? Like how do you anticipate black Canyon being from that standpoint for you?

EmKay Sullivan (09:53.096)
I'm somebody who would definitely prefer to be in contact with the front of the race. I don't necessarily need to be leading, but I want to be in contact. So Worlds was actually a really difficult day for me mentally. I remember seeing my mom and Tommy at like mile 10 maybe, and I was in like 30th place and they were cheering for me. And I remember just giving him this look like, please stop. I don't want your positivity. I feel terrible. And we were going into this really big climb.

Kimber passed me and she was like, "'Come on, M.K., you got this. "'How are you doing?' And I was like, I feel terrible. I'm having a bad day. But I just kept grinding and eventually, at my, or at hour four or whatever that was, all of a sudden I saw these people walking and I was like, I can run. I actually can run up this final hill. And so I don't know if it was just that I warmed up by that point or if...

Maybe I did just run a smarter race than I thought I had because I couldn't keep up with those women at the beginning. Um, but I like mentally that was really tough for me because I much prefer to be in contact or within eyesight of that front pack.

Finn (11:05.01)
It's interesting. I am, I am by no means the type of runner you are. I'm like a front of the middle of the pack or on a good day, but I do find even in my experience, I maybe have one or two races each year where regardless of how tired I am in the moment, like in those two races, my body or my mind has given me permission to like have like a second act mid race and it can only happen like one or two times in a season. Maybe that could have been the case for you or it's like, that was one of the two, like.

EmKay Sullivan (11:28.625)
Yeah.

Finn (11:34.614)
tickets you had or like the cards you could kind of pull out of your sleeve late in the race.

EmKay Sullivan (11:39.008)
Yeah, I think that's probably right. Um, but I, and that's what I'm kind of hoping for at Black Canyon is like, yeah, I've never run this distance before, but I do think that I'm a pretty strong second half runner of like most races. Um, as long as I've been smart in the beginning. And so, yeah, like my hope is that I get to that, uh, it won't be the fourth hour. It'll be like the sixth or seventh or eighth hour maybe, and, uh, I can start.

Feeling good and rolling.

Finn (12:10.786)
Thought it was pretty cool. It might've been one of the sub hub episodes sort of at like the turn of the year, but you were talking about how like one of the benefits or the reasons not to do CIM late last year was that by not doing it, you weren't going to jeopardize like this year's goals. So races like black Canyon, obviously hindsight's 2020, but do you feel pretty like rejuvenated right now where like you're in this race, your mindset's there. You're, you're ready to go to the well, stuff like that.

EmKay Sullivan (12:38.328)
Yeah, very much. I haven't like since I backed off from CIM, my body's been pretty happy. It was very not happy, um, when I was trying to train on the roads for a little bit there and, um, because like I said earlier, things have been like a little less intense, it's honestly been. A super smooth training block. I've been running a lot of miles on the weekends, but not necessarily more than I usually do like during an entire week necessarily, but

You know, I had one weekend where I ran 50 miles over two days and it didn't even feel like I had, which was kind of cool. Um, and I think part of it maybe is that, you know, trail running has kind of turned me a little reclusive. I used to be a very social runner, but now I'm, I'm prefer to just like train with my dog and occasionally my husband. But this training block, I've made a point to include a lot more of my friends, you know, on long runs and stuff. And.

That's probably part of it too. It's been a lot of fun to not have to just like grind out for three, four hours by myself. So it's, I feel, I feel mentally very rejuvenated having not run CIM.

Finn (13:46.806)
I've always felt like the marathon is the ultimate test of like, how much do you truly love running like through thick and thin just because it is such like a grinded out type training block. It's the classic like loneliness of the long distance runner. Like there's so much suffering involved, like even compared to ultra running. I don't know. It's a, it's just a good point that like you can come kind of come back in contact with the social piece of the sport.

EmKay Sullivan (14:12.012)
Yeah, I started trail running after my stint in the marathon because training on the roads by myself was miserable. Like doing those 20 mile long runs on the road could not enjoy it. But if I had to do 20 miles by myself today on the trails, like I'd be fine. I'd have a great time.

Finn (14:33.59)
I'm thinking about the Black Canyon course. So like from memory, I was there last year, like mostly net downhill in the first 50K, gradual downhill, second half of the race, punchy climbs, like a lot of the vert climbing wise is like backloaded, easy to get kind of caught up in a hot pace early on. Where do you see your like primary skill sets as a runner on display? Is it in the climbing? Is it in the descending?

Is it in just like pacing it out through both of those environments? Like where do you see your skillset on display?

EmKay Sullivan (15:11.72)
I think I'm a very good runner. I come from a track and field and marathon road background. I think the first half of the race will be good for me, but it will be something that I have to maybe hold back on. Like you were saying, it's really easy to get caught up in that pace. But my husband will tell you that the most annoying thing about the way that I run is that I am very good at gradual uphills and into the wind.

So I think that those like little uphills at the end, as long as I haven't totally trashed myself, you know, in that first half, will actually be pretty good for me. I enjoy big climbs, but when it comes to those short annoying climbs, I tend to push a little bit harder than maybe I would if it was super steep.

Finn (15:58.722)
We were talking earlier about how versatility is the name of the game this year, but what happens if you race yourself into a ticket? That's a dilemma, right? What are you going to do?

EmKay Sullivan (16:08.764)
Um, so I've already told Tommy and my coach Rick that I won't immediately say no. I'll give it the two weeks, but, um, as of right now, it's a no, uh, because I do have really big goals. Like, uh, my, my next race is going to be Zagama and that's a race that I want to go to and I want a podium. Um, and you can't really train for Zagama in Western States at the same time. Um, so yeah, it's not really, I may never run a hundred miles. Um.

Finn (16:19.359)
Okay.

EmKay Sullivan (16:38.508)
You know, I say that now, I also, if you had asked me two years ago, would have been like, I'll never run 100 gay. Um, but I, I just have to be able to turn it down and know that I may never get one again.

Finn (16:53.374)
It's interesting, like, given that this is a primarily ultra trail running show, it's rare to get that answer, but it's also refreshing in the sense that there are equally valid, compelling, interesting trail running worlds out there that don't involve Western states. And like you said, Zagama, the entire sub-ultra space, even if you wanted to sort of like train through June and July and focus on like UTMB events at the end of August, early September.

Yeah, I highly doubt that you would struggle to get a ticket in another race though. I don't know. I don't know if this is like the one and done type thing.

EmKay Sullivan (17:24.368)
Hahaha

EmKay Sullivan (17:28.551)
I mean, I would hope not, but you know, like my husband told me after Worlds, like that could be your best race that you ever have. So you can't take advantage of these results, you know? So if I get a golden ticket and I turn it down, I can't expect to get another one.

Finn (17:45.45)
It is, I mean, I don't want to dwell on it too long, but it would be an interesting stat to figure out, like, has there been anybody that has gotten a ticket that has declined it? And in retrospect, it turned out like they should have taken it if they had wanted to participate. I don't know, I don't know off the top of my head, but that would be an interesting line to look into. I don't know. I, for you, I feel like, I mean, yeah, you got 10, 15, 20 years of activity in that space. Um.

EmKay Sullivan (17:57.761)
Never got it again.

EmKay Sullivan (18:03.569)
Yeah.

Finn (18:13.662)
I think, how about, so the rest of the year, like you said, Zagama will be the focus. Golden Trail series. What else? Cirque series.

EmKay Sullivan (18:21.236)
Um, I'm going to do, or I'm signed up for the USA championships at snowbird. Um, cause it's the week before speed goats. So I'll already be out there. Um, and I've never done a Cirque series race, but it's something I've always wanted to do. So, um, I figured that was a good opportunity. And then, um, ideally it would be OCC and then depending big, depending on how I, uh,

Finn (18:26.367)
Okay.

EmKay Sullivan (18:46.172)
do at OCC, but also how I recover from OCC will be the American Golden Trail Races. Yeah.

Finn (18:51.694)
Okay. And then 2025, like I know this is way far ahead, but are you like on that whole world's trend again, where it's like, or is it Spain? Is that where it'll be? Okay.

EmKay Sullivan (19:02.868)
Yeah, yeah, I would love to make the US team again. That was so much fun. I'd love to go back and have an even better day. Ninth was pretty cool, but you know, being a world champion would be even cooler. So I would love to go back in 2025.

Finn (19:18.222)
Cool. Well, yeah, as a fan of the Ultra Trail space, I'm stoked that you're in it. And not only are you in it, but you're dabbling in what could end up being the most competitive American Ultra Trail race of the year, only in February. Like it's lining up to be that, I think it's amazing. But the last thing I want to talk about is the SubHub podcast. I was telling you offline that thanks to you and Danny, I feel like I'm either getting an associate's degree or a bachelor's degree, not a master's, but like I'm getting an intro.

EmKay Sullivan (19:32.008)
I know, it's crazy.

EmKay Sullivan (19:44.868)
Hahaha.

Finn (19:46.162)
education into that scene. I've learned a ton. You guys have been an amazing service to the community. What had I know you've you came into it knowing a lot, but like through the interviews, through the discussions, what are some things you've learned about the athletes or any insights about the sport learnings that you can share with the audience?

EmKay Sullivan (20:05.816)
I came into it thinking I knew a lot about it, but I have also learned a lot through the podcast. It's been so much fun to be able to interview and get to know athletes that I look up to in the sport, but also get to race against. And so I think the thing I've learned the most about just like the sub-ultra space is how diverse it is in terms of the type of athletes that you get.

Um, you know, like you have Remy Bonet, who is world-class schema athlete and one of the best uphillers in the world. You have, um, Ana Gibson and, um, Ninka Brinkman who are insanely fast on the roads and the track. Um, and so it's just like, it's so, there's not like one athlete that kind of fits the mold of what sub-ultra looks like. Um, and I think part of that is because it is also.

such a large array of races, like anything from the VK, obviously all the way up to the marathon distance. And that includes sky running as well, which is like a totally different sport also. But yeah, it's so cool to see how everybody approaches training and racing and even just like putting their schedules together every year. Sometimes I'm mind blown by the amount of racing that some of these athletes are capable of doing when I'm like struggling to, you know, do six races in a year.

Um, so it's been, it's been cool to just kind of see all the backgrounds of these athletes and the races that they decide are best for them.

Finn (21:36.794)
Well, like I said, I love the work you guys do. One of the episodes, it was back in late December, you were sort of doing like a trail runner of the year recap. And I think it was, I don't know if it was you or Danny, maybe it was both of you, but you made the point that like, for example, on the men's side, Steehan is the short trail equivalent of Jim Walmsley or Francois Dane in the Ultra Trail space. And he just, for whatever reason, doesn't get the level of appreciation commensurate like with what he did last year, like a multi-time OCC winner.

His performance at Worlds like he is far and above this just dominant figure in the sport and it wasn't reflected in the voting Which is so like we still have that ultra trail bias Among the fans as well. It's very interesting

EmKay Sullivan (22:16.564)
Yep. Danny and I spent that whole like 10 days just texting each other. Like, what? Did you see this? Like, I mean, cause yeah, there were, Steehan was one of the people that I felt was too far back. There were, um, a couple of athletes that I felt were missed completely in that, in that ranking. But, um, yeah, you know, hopefully the sub hub and, um, Danny and I can kind of bring a little bit more education to that.

next year. I think we kind of waited a little bit long this year. We were like, oh my gosh, we should do something. And even then we did something where we kind of picked our own number ones, but I almost feel like we should pick our top 10 in the sub-ultra space so that people can then have like 10 athletes, men and women that they can look at and be like, okay, how does this stack up to the people that I already know about in the ultra trail world?

Finn (23:10.238)
You may, I'm actually not sure when that episode came out, but one thing that would be interesting next year is like if you and Danny did an episode where like you kind of said, you release your own picks, your voting like two or three weeks before, and that helps inform some of the voting that takes place. I think it would have a huge influence.

EmKay Sullivan (23:28.192)
Yep, yeah, I think so too. Next year we'll have more information for you guys.

Finn (23:32.478)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe last question on this front. You know, you mentioned a lot of great names there, like the Anna Gibsons, the Christian Allens of the world, the Micas, the Dan Kurtzes. Who else is a crusher on the scene that is not getting the attention they deserve? And or what are some races on these circuits that you feel like deserve more recognition and coverage or that you as the sub hub, you know, are gonna highlight more in 24?

EmKay Sullivan (24:01.912)
Yeah, I think that the, um, the on running team based out of Kenya. So that's the team that Patrick Kipnien is on. Um, yeah, run together and fill them on Kyriago. I think, uh, those are two athletes that, uh, they're still fairly new to the trail running scene. And so I think this year and next year, we're going to see some crazy performances from them just as they get more used to like racing in the golden trail circuit. Um, I think also Floria Madalena, uh, she won.

Finn (24:09.27)
Run together, is it called? Run together again.

EmKay Sullivan (24:31.076)
the Golden Trail World Series final, but didn't win overall. She's somebody to definitely look out for. And then I think in terms of like races that kind of don't get enough love, it's the WMRA series. And that includes from us, like we're really bad about keeping up with it too, but those races are like, probably some of the oldest trail races in this space. And there, a lot of them are all uphill, but not necessarily VK. They're like, you know, eight miles or something.

Finn (24:34.209)
Yeah.

EmKay Sullivan (25:00.408)
And they seem like such cool races, especially for, um, like a college kid that's trying to get into the international trail scene, super competitive because the Kenyans always go there. Andrea Mars always there. Um, but yeah, they just like, don't get any love.

Finn (25:16.942)
Right on. Well, yeah, like I said, super excited for what you guys do in 24 and beyond. Thank you so much for filling the content void. It was so really needed. We'll make sure to link to all of your social media, the podcast, et cetera, and the show notes. Any final thoughts about Black Canyon or calls to action that you have for listeners before we go?

EmKay Sullivan (25:35.476)
Oh man, uh, listen to the sub hub, start paying attention to sub ultra races because they're so cool. Um, but also, yeah, I'm just stoked to open up in my first 100 K kind of hang on for dear life and see what I can do.