Ben Blankenship | American Olympian Trys Ultrarunning

Finn (00:01.185)
Ben Blankenship, it is a pleasure to have you on the Singletrack Podcast. How are you doing today?

Ben (00:05.858)
Good, I feel very out of my element, but I'm excited to be here.

Finn (00:10.237)
I love that. And yeah, I was telling you offline, we rarely do backgrounds on this show and the real ones, they know your resume, but I do feel obligated to talk about some of it. And I've got to recite some of your resume just because this is a trail running specific podcast. So a couple of things, you've won gold at the 2015 World Relay Champs, took seventh in the 1500 at the 2016 Rio Games.

In my opinion though, your most impressive feat, you recently became the fourth human to ever break 335 in the 1500 and 220 in the marathon. I didn't realize that was such a short list because I feel like there are more complete runners out there in the universe. Did that surprise you too?

Ben (00:53.018)
It's only Americans. I found the, Kyle Murber found this very obscure stat that I felt like if there's obscure stats, I wanna be part of it. So it's a little bit meaningless, it's trivial, but yeah, it's kinda cool. I think I'll be the first to do sub 335, sub 220 in the marathon, and hopefully complete 100.

Finn (00:54.872)
Okay.

Finn (01:19.193)
Okay, right on.

Ben (01:20.01)
So it'll get more obscure as we go.

Finn (01:24.133)
Um, touching a little bit on your background, I didn't realize also that you were at UTMB back in 2015 to see, to witness David Laney podium at that race, which I think is so cool. Talk about that experience and how it impacted you.

Ben (01:39.79)
Uh, yeah, it was a super cool, Nike had just launched kind of the trail series and for some reason they. Let me come along tag along to this trip that I will never be able to recreate. It was kind of this five star full class service of we stayed in this mountain chalet, we hung out with really cool people, we ran on the course, we had dinner and lunch up in the Alps. And it was just like this epic trip.

I will never be able to recreate, but it was a blast. It was super fun. I learned a ton about trails. I had come basically off a track season and they're like, do you mind running a bunch? And I was like, oh yeah, I'm great. Like I can run a ton, I can run easy. And then the first day we started running up hills and I was like, I can't do this. Like I am just gonna hang out with like the really, like we're gonna like basically hike. And I was like, I can do that. I can hike. Like my ankles are not built.

for rocks at this moment in my life. And I had packed like a pair of pegs. I was like, okay, I'm cool. Like I got pegs, I'm fine. It was terrible. The running experience was terrible.

Finn (02:48.925)
Well, it also makes me wonder, were there any other people from either the Oregon Track Club or Bowerman or anyone inside Nike that got to be there as well and witnessed the trail team do work?

Ben (02:59.99)
No, it's just me. It was just me and then like, you know, the band of trail athletes. And we really didn't see that much of the race. We like went out to dinner instead of like crewing, which was like even cooler. I was like, oh, I'll see the start and finish. This is awesome. And that was about it.

Finn (03:01.546)
Really?

Finn (03:19.529)
If you're now sort of doing a retrospective and connecting the dots, did that have any impact whatsoever on what you're doing in 2024?

Ben (03:28.11)
Probably not, to be honest, because I wasn't really immersed in it. It was such a obscure thing that we were going to, and I really had no idea the gratitude or the magnitude of that race at the moment. It was really something that I had missed making the world team, so I was devastated, and Nike was like, do you want to come do something really fun? And I was like, sure. And then I went and I was like, okay, this is super cool. I'll hang out in the Alps for a little bit.

Finn (03:55.437)
Do you talk much with like David Laney, Tim Tollefson, Zack Miller, those Nike guys from back in the day?

Ben (04:01.986)
A little bit, yeah. There's a little banter between us, so not a ton. Our overlap, our like small little vacuums we live in don't operate very often.

Finn (04:05.879)
with.

Finn (04:12.905)
Okay. Well, yeah, there's, I'm not sure if David Laney coined it, but there's this famous quote, which I feel I want to recite it here because I think it rings true. You either die on the track or you live long enough to see yourself become a mountain ultra trail runner.

Ben (04:20.205)
Peace.

Ben (04:27.31)
There, sums it up. Yeah, I'm basically a washed up athlete who just wants to stay in the running game as long as possible. And.

It felt fitting that I just continued to move up in distance. And I'm kind of a guy who likes to cannonball into things. So it was like, do I want to run a 50K? Do I want to run a 100K? I was like, why not just run a hundred miles, see what happens.

Finn (04:51.701)
Another thing I find fascinating, obviously you've had a pretty decorated career in the sport, but I was looking at your college resume and it didn't look to me like you had the resume that would indicate you were going to have the career you were going to have. And I think this is helpful to people that are also aspiring pros that listen to this. What were your circumstances coming out of college and what were the opportunities that you made the most out of?

Ben (05:18.406)
And that's a heavy question. Um, I came out of high school as kind of an odd athlete, um, where I didn't try very hard in school and that really limited almost all my opportunities. Um, I remember a few like college coaches being super exciting in the recruiting process and then us having these like awkward conversations of like, Oh, you you're good at school, right? And I was like, yeah, I'm good. And then they'd call me back like, you know, a month later and they'd be like,

got like a 1.4 GPA. I can't help you." And I was like, damn it. I was terrible. I don't know. I was just terrible at school. And I'm kind of a day-to-day guy. So it was like, okay, what I'm doing today is awesome. What I'll do tomorrow is who knows? And I never really thought about running outside of the high school level. It was something that I was super into for a little while in high school. And I never thought about potentially even going to college.

Finn (05:51.993)
What? 1.4?

Ben (06:18.326)
So that was just something that was kind of outside of my like scope of thought. It was like, I'm going to do this and then I'll figure out what I do next. Um, and I, and I, and I think, like you said, like my resume in college wasn't great. I made a lot of mistakes and like, again, I never thought about running outside of that. I never had these dreams of like, Oh, I'm going to be a professional athlete or I'm going to go to the Olympics or I'll do any of this. It was just like, let's have fun. Let's run a ton and let's like have good fun at practice.

Finn (06:47.717)
What were the opportunities though, like post college? Were there any pivotal moments that you can recall where it was like, this was kind of a make or break thing, this person appears or this event happens and because of that I got on this track that I've been able to make a career out of?

Ben (07:01.962)
Yeah, I think there was probably two. One, my college coach, Steve Posencia, he had ties to Oregon and Eugene, and he got me into the pre-classic. So I ran the international mile in the morning while I was in college, and I ran pretty fast. It was a good race for me, and it was like one of those things where I was like pretty ignorant. So I was just like, let's go out and try to run fast. And that kind of put me on the map for

for some of it. And then the other one is I took a huge gamble. In that summer, I just went to Europe. And I had no idea what I was doing. I knew a few guys who were in Europe at the time. And I essentially just showed up. They're like, do you have a place to stay? I was like, no. They're like, do you know what races you're running? I was like, no. And they're like, OK, come hang out. And I was like, OK, great. And I just followed some guys, some great guys. Like,

from meet to meet and just like hope that race directors would take pity on me, that I was like a 20 year old kid who didn't know anything. And they'd let me into races and I raced a ton that summer and got really good exposure, but it was a lot, it was basically just one big risk. Um, and a lot of people, like I slept on people's couches and kind of just like dirt bag myself around Europe.

Finn (08:24.417)
Have you always loved the sport or have there ever been interruptions?

Ben (08:29.918)
I don't know if I love the sport. I love being out there. I love the idea of like being able to push yourself in this really unique way where it requires nothing other than willingness. I love that. I've had some large interruptions a bunch. So oftentimes I will get in shape too early or too fast. And I say all the time to my athletes and to...

It's like, you know, be patient and like really work into it and like the seasons long and I never take my own advice I'm like, I'm gonna do everything I'm gonna try to be in great marathon shape and I'm gonna try to do really fast stuff and then I get hurt I've done that my entire career that like there's zero patience. I'm all gas and no breaks and it's like Yeah, I've ruptured a ton of tenons. I broke a lot of bones and like I'm still here

Finn (09:22.665)
Are most people in the sport like you though or are you an outlier? Like at the very top, like the people that are going for golds at the Olympics, are you an outlier even within that group or are most people like you?

Ben (09:32.386)
That's a good question. I don't know. I think I would take, I take way more risks. I'm a guy that doesn't want to participate. Like I'd rather be first. I'd rather be last than try to make the team, if that makes sense. Like I don't care about making the team. I want to win stuff. And I'd rather be hurt than be like, okay, I'm in okay shape. I know I'm safe.

Finn (09:50.05)
Yeah.

Ben (10:00.918)
That sounds really boring. I don't wanna be that. I don't wanna be boring.

Finn (10:05.129)
I got to read this quote from your Instagram because it made me pause. You said, quote, you can't be great without obsession. It's what the history books remember, the ones who kept going, kept pushing, kept fighting. Everest is littered with bodies and that's okay. End quote. So my question is why can't you be great without obsession? Have you know, have you met anybody who wasn't obsessed?

Ben (10:06.03)
I'm sorry.

Ben (10:27.947)
No, no, not in the greatness, no.

Finn (10:34.069)
Like they didn't just ride talent like very fortunately.

Ben (10:37.662)
No, I don't. I feel like the more I'm exposed to better athletes and better people and their unique things, the more obsessed they are. The more like, it drives their day to day, it drives their minute to minute, and nothing else kinda matters.

Finn (10:58.189)
Who's the least obsessed, most successful run you've ever met?

Ben (11:04.502)
I don't know. I think that's a tough question, mostly because I don't know people that personally. Most of the people that I surround myself with are extremists, are people who are like, I'm doing this full tilt and everything that is in my life is all about fitness or is all about running. And I rarely have those moments where I interact with like,

normies who are like, Oh yeah, I kind of casually run a little bit. Like I run with like a great group of guys here that are running way too much for who they are. Like, why? Why are you guys running 100 miles a week? They're like, Oh, we love it. Like, that's just not that normal to like get up at 5am and like, go run 20 miles like, and like, it's just what they do. I'm like, Okay, this cool.

Finn (11:32.768)
Mm.

Yeah.

Finn (11:57.409)
So are you obsessed and self-motivated because it comes from something internal or are you a product of your environment?

Ben (12:06.594)
Man, it's heavy hitting questions. I think it's internal more than anything. I didn't necessarily grow up knowing I was on a run or surrounded by people who were on a run. I just really liked the idea of finding those breaking points of where's the edge and then how much further can I go before I break. And I think a lot of people are concerned about those breaking points. They're like, I don't wanna get hurt. I've never worried about that. I'm like...

Finn (12:29.591)
Yeah.

Ben (12:36.31)
That's just what's going to happen. I'm going to get hurt. I'm going to have mistakes and that's okay.

Finn (12:46.826)
I want to talk about your style for a minute because it's something like as a fan of track and field, as a fan of running over the last decade, I've always admired. And I've always thought of you as sort of like an old school runner. You kind of work in silence. I think historically, is it correct that you kind of kept your training pretty private?

Ben (13:05.171)
A little bit, yeah. Or I just like, if people would ask, I'd just make stuff up. Make some obscure things up.

Finn (13:08.372)
Yeah.

Finn (13:12.748)
But you weren't like the tin man elite, here's the avocado toast I'm having for breakfast type guy, right?

Ben (13:18.342)
No, I also am old enough that like social media wasn't a thing, right? Like all of my contracts never did they mention like, oh, you have to post on social media. Like they were like, run well or don't run well. It's very clear cut how you're going to get paid.

Finn (13:22.988)
Yeah.

Finn (13:35.833)
but you're posting awesome content now. You've got the obsession post there and this foray into trail stuff. What changed? You're posting bangers now.

Ben (13:44.078)
I think mostly like, some of it's really fun. Other of it is like, maybe I'll get paid from it. Like I do need to make like a livelihood here. So it's a combination. It's a combination of like some, I do really, I do like to like share this process, but I also like money. I'm very money motivated too.

Finn (14:07.465)
Are you sponsored now? Like after leaving the Oregon Track Club now? Like Nike Trail's not knocking at the door?

Ben (14:09.098)
No, no, just a free agent roaming around. No, no, we'll see. We'll see what happens after this hundred.

Finn (14:19.445)
Okay. Maybe sort of one more, maybe two more questions in the background front. But like what on your on your podcast, you talked about this distinction between bougie versus dirtbags in the running world. Explain that.

Ben (14:32.492)
Yeah.

Ben (14:35.706)
Uh, I think there's a lot of like, a lot of athletes who have these really good setups, they, they show up, they know what's going to go on. They have great training partners. They have great facilities. And then there's a lot of athletes who are just kind of making a go out of it. They're showing up at that like random parking lot as the sun's coming up. And they're just making fitness happen. And I've always really admired those. I admire both, but I think there's like.

a romance to the idea that like, you're that one random person that somebody sees out in the morning doing freakishly fast stuff. And they're like, what is that person doing? I kind of like that stuff.

Finn (15:19.557)
What's an example of like a bougie setup in our sport versus a dirt bag? Like you kind of explained your setup with the dirt bag like thing right now.

Ben (15:27.282)
I was pretty bougie though. Like I had access to Hayward Field and like I had a lot of like bougie things that came along with being a Nike athlete. Yeah, I even have a Woodway treadmill in my garage and I've used it like four times. It mostly like, I just store stuff on it. Yeah, I think, I don't know. I think like, I think like bougie comes to the idea that like...

Finn (15:34.962)
Alter G's, Woodway treadmills.

Really?

Ben (15:55.126)
You've had enough success that the diamond league races are kind of home to you. Like these catered races, like I made pretty much all of my success and all of my money on the roads, like going from race to race throughout the fall, where everybody was like, I'm kind of tired. I'm going to shut down and get ready for the next indoors. And I was like, I'm going to take advantage of this free money. Like I'm going to stay in shape and run road miles all, all summer and all fall.

Finn (16:01.569)
Okay. Yeah.

Ben (16:23.466)
Mostly because I like money, but also because I was like, why not? Who cares if I have to like, you know, fly around the country and like, you know, the last row of the airplane is just the way it is.

Finn (16:35.833)
So these are these are two equally legitimate pathways to the same destination, but one might be more like romantic than the other.

Ben (16:42.234)
Yeah, a little bit. And I think it kind of depends on who you want to get, who you want to be. Like I, I never minded like getting off a plane immediately having to race. I was like, okay, this is just the way it is.

Finn (16:56.061)
I know one of the ways or maybe the primary way you consume the sport is you watch a lot of races. You're not like consuming the sport in clips or through social. You're watching races and I think there's a lot of hardcore fans of the sport listening to this. What do you observe or what do you get from watching races that might not be obvious to the average fan?

Ben (17:03.67)
Yeah.

Ben (17:16.818)
I'm always looking for mistakes. I try to watch like races where maybe an athlete went in with the idea that they should make the team or they should win. And then it's kind of figuring out where those mistakes were made. That's really what I'm trying to look for or where big successes happened. It's fun to watch, you know,

Ben (17:46.068)
And I think like, you know, a modern race would be like, what's Yaka Bingabritsen doing wrong? Like, what's he doing wrong that he cannot win these 1500s to save his life? Like he should on paper, he should win them, but like Josh Kerr keeps winning. He continues to win. And like, why is that? He doesn't do it. Yeah. He doesn't do anything different. Like in the five K.

Finn (18:06.207)
What's your opinion? What's your opinion on why that is?

Ben (18:12.194)
When he's won, he's always taken this approach like, I'm gonna let the race unfold and I'm gonna have a lot of confidence that I'm faster than everybody else. And for the 15, he wants to win it in this really dumb way of like, I'm gonna go to the front and I'm better than everybody else. And that just isn't true. It's just not true right now. And he refuses to do something different. Like, do something different. Just go to the back. Like just go to the back and that might be enough.

to win.

Finn (18:43.413)
From a talent standpoint, do you think Jakob is the best of this generation?

Ben (18:47.054)
Uh, yeah, I mean, he's super talented. He's done a ton. I think it really depends on what. Like for me example, I didn't really care about running fast. It wasn't something I prioritized. I wasn't going to be a guy who was going to run sub 330. I just don't have that talent level. So I prioritize trying to make teams and trying to make money and, and having a ton of fun along the way.

And I think you have to kind of figure out how do you define talent? Is it running fast or is it winning medals? Cause I think a guy like Josh Kerr, you could say is, is more talented. He's, he's one more. Um, I think it just kind of depends on how you define that.

Finn (19:27.093)
Yeah.

Finn (19:31.441)
When you're watching these races and you're seeing sort of like the start line vibes and you're kind of watching each runner shake out. Are you pretty good at decoding like body language and nerves and stuff like that? And can you kind of predict from that who's going to perform?

Ben (19:47.182)
Uh, I would say probably not that much anymore. I think when, when I was in the sport a little bit more and I sat in call rooms with people, um, I could, and now I think, I think it's a little harder, especially because you don't like, I think our sport does a terrible job. Like why, why isn't there cameras in the call room? Why isn't there more behind the scenes of what people do before that small window of, you know,

the race starts, the race finishes. And a lot of times you don't even see the whole race, right? I think our sport does a poor job in that. So I think when you're on the track and like, you can see more, especially those like few moments before the race goes off, you can, you can start to tell how people are feeling.

Finn (20:34.605)
Maybe transitioning more towards like the trail running discussion. And even, even within our own sport, this is a really interesting thing to consider. Cause yeah, at least in trail, not a lot of people leave in this. I don't want to say distinguished, but like declarative, you know, I am moving on or I'm sort of pivoting type way. And it all makes me wonder, like, how do we, how does anybody of your caliber know when they're at a crossroads? So like, when you think about your career.

Ben (20:36.202)
Yeah. Yeah, let's.

Finn (21:02.189)
Did you leave when you needed to leave the track and the roads or could you still be competitive there today?

Ben (21:08.726)
Uh, I, I didn't leave early enough. Uh, I think I wish I would have gone the roads earlier, um, run the marathon right after 2019. Um, but it's all hindsight. Um, and I think for me, the biggest thing has always been like, what excites me. If I'm not excited about it, I'm not gonna like go all in and the track stopped exciting me when I, when I realized that I wasn't that fast anymore.

I was never that fast to begin with, but I slowly got slower. And the type of work that I needed to do to like really compete wasn't stuff I was able to do. Um, and the marathon was super fun. I stayed in it to run one marathon, but I kind of realized pretty quick that like, it's not training that I'm going to be able to do sustainably for long enough to really get good at this.

Could I have stayed and run faster? Maybe. But I also knew that like, yeah. Yeah, and it was like a huge risk reward. It was like, I'm going to continue to get hurt a lot and probably not race at all. I'm going to keep doing the same repetition over and over to try to run faster than maybe what I'm capable of, or maybe where I am in training.

Finn (22:05.674)
Huh.

Finn (22:09.737)
incremental though maybe incremental at best.

Finn (22:20.118)
Yeah.

Finn (22:32.462)
What was Ryan Hall's influence on you? Like what were the biggest takeaways from his coaching style or his insights? Even if they were beyond the marathon, I'm curious.

Ben (22:44.822)
Yeah, I've been around Ryan a ton and I think like his ability to get the most out of athletes is incredible. He really fundamentally understands what motivates people at a core level. And I think that has really given me a lot of insight into like a totally different kind of training culture than we need to do these workouts to get these results.

It's like, how do we motivate you as an individual versus how do we just get you fit? I don't know if that.

Finn (23:20.373)
And what was that? What was that playbook for you? Like, what did he identify in you? Was it, was it like the dirt bag type thing? Like, I'm just going to be a workhorse.

Ben (23:26.571)
Uh, I'm really motivated by like...

I, I'm really motivated by working together, working together as a group. Like there's nothing better to me than like going out and hammering like a tempo run or some intervals with a group of people. I love that. Training by myself and doing hard sessions by myself, though I've spent an entire career doing that has never really motivated them. Me that much. I just don't get that much out of it. I don't run that hard versus when I'm in a group and.

Ryan was always really good about like kind of breaking sessions apart for me, where I could jump in and out. Like I've done a ton of stuff with Sarah. Sarah was awesome to train with.

Finn (24:06.007)
Yeah.

Yeah. Did he ever talk about like his own demise and was he trying to like impress those types of lessons on his athletes?

Ben (24:18.163)
Uh, no, not so much. Um, I don't think so. Not, not in a direct way.

Finn (24:27.193)
Um, on the trail side of things, like I know, again, including Ryan, like you've historically gotten coached by people that have been in the places where you kind of want to be, is it going to be the same, is it going to be the same thing with trail? Like, are you going to hire someone in trail who has kind of like been to the promised land?

Ben (24:37.911)
Yeah.

Ben (24:45.639)
I think that's a good observation. I always wanted to be coached by somebody who had walked out and done what I was trying to achieve. I wanted to be under somebody's training who had stood on the same start line that I wanted to stand on. From Steve Pessentia to Mark Rowland and to Ryan Hall, I really wanted that like first person narrative.

However, for this chapter, I'm kind of just like winging it and I'm kind of jumping in and I'm like, okay, I understand a little bit. I've talked to enough people that it's like, it's time on feet. I mean, I'm really simplifying it, but I think for this first chapter, I just wanna do it. Like I'm so terrified of the distance. I think a lot of people are like, oh, you're gonna be fine fitness wise. It's just everything else that you have to worry about.

And I'm like, I don't believe you. I don't believe you at all. Like I've spent 20 years running in one straight line as efficiently as possible. I have never had to worry about a stick or a rock or going up or down hills. It's always been like, how efficiently do we go from point A to point B as quick as possible? And running a hundred miles is not that.

Finn (26:01.823)
Yeah.

Finn (26:05.685)
Yeah. I've been following your Strava pretty closely and I feel like Specificity's been there. Like there's an increasingly large graveyard of, call it, 211 to 213 marathoners who come into the sport briefly and they think all they need to do is just extend a road long run by 10 or 15 miles and that's the ball game. And they make it like 20 miles into these 100K races and they've...

Ben (26:27.054)
to help.

Finn (26:34.253)
find that, you know, like terrain specificity matters a lot, vert matters a lot down. And it seems like you're checking those boxes.

Ben (26:38.378)
Yeah. That's like, I went out really, like, there's a guy here in town named Matt Barnhart, he's a great guy, has, has successfully run a lot of races. He's a guy that works full time. He works 80 hour weeks sometimes and still bangs out a hundred mile weeks. Just super impressed of.

And I was like, I'm a pretty good athlete. Like, let's go do this like 30 mile run. I made it like 18 miles and I was like, no, you should lead. Like I'll follow downhill. I just wanted to like roll up in a ball and cry. I was like, my quads have never hurt so much in my entire life. We were at a point where like, I was like, I'm moving pretty good. And then we were like on these switchbacks and I looked down and he's like 800 meters ahead of me. And I was like, I don't know when this happened, but I want to die now.

Like if there's an opportunity for a tree to fall on me, that would be amazing.

Finn (27:34.765)
Are you feeling the adaptations though? Like having been at this now for a fair bit, do you feel like your body is agreeing with what you need to do to be successful in the sport?

Ben (27:46.494)
I don't know about successful. A lot of it is stupid stuff. The front of my toes are finally starting to callus over from just being jammed into the front of the toe box of going down hills. I'm working a ton on quad strength. And a lot of it is just like, the other day I went out for 20 miles and I was like, I'll be fine without any nutrition. I just wanna get this done.

And it was like the worst 20 miles of my life. I was like, I really want this to be done. I made it back to my car with like 17 miles and my partner had bought me a chocolate croissant and I just like inhaled it. And then I felt pretty good for the last three miles. I was like, God, I, this is so dumb. Like if I just go back to my car and make it an aid station, runs are so much better. And there's a little bit of like naivety and it's also like, just kind of learning. It's like, what can I do to

make these runs better.

Finn (28:45.205)
it does become an eating contest at some point. Have you, you know, we talked about like David Laney and Tim Tollefson earlier, but have you studied the transition to trail of other runners like in your sort of like cohort? Or like, I guess, how are you getting your education other than like the primary experience of going out there and just running trails?

Ben (28:47.614)
Yeah.

Ben (29:09.382)
Um, it's pretty much all primary. Um, I probably haven't done as much research as possible. I, the meat director of Wolf Creek, who's putting on the rabbit raccoon reached out to me a bunch and throughout a lot of years. And they're like, we really want you to come do some ultra stuff. And I was like, it just doesn't fit. It doesn't fit between indoors and outdoors. I can't make it happen. And suddenly I was in this position where I was like, I'm running more.

Finn (29:20.012)
Yeah.

Ben (29:37.33)
I think I can handle the distance if I'm super smart and just power walk it, I'll be okay. And I agreed to it even before I pulled out of the trials. I agreed to it even before I ran my first marathon. I was like, I'm really excited about it. I wanna give it a go, but it'll depend on how my first marathon went. And after that first marathon, probably two days later, I was like, I'm all in, let's do it.

Let's run this 100 miles. Let's see what happens. So a little bit of a long story. I just started jumping into it and I'm like, okay, what do I need the most? I need to get really comfortable time on feet. And the best way I can see that is just blocking days, doing big days back to back and doing all types of terrain, mostly vert and getting comfortable being out there at night and trying to eat a ton.

Finn (30:34.221)
So how did you get connected with this particular race? Because there's a whole litany of races you could have chosen, but rabid raccoon is the one you're doing. So how did you, how did you get to that one?

Ben (30:34.574)
Hahaha

Ben (30:43.858)
Um, I'll be honest, a little bit of it is like appearance money. I was very motivated by that. Um, and they were super, yeah, thank you. They were super eager to have me. They were like, we really want to see it. We really want to make it happen. How do we get you here? And I was like, it doesn't take much. I'll be honest. It doesn't take much at this moment. Like you pay me, I'll show up. Uh, so it was really kind of that conversation. And then.

Finn (30:47.865)
Okay. I respect that.

Ben (31:09.594)
I didn't realize how intense it was going to be. Like after I signed up, I got like some DMs and they're like, it's a gruesome course. Why did you sign up for this one, for your first one? I was like, honestly, I didn't know. Honestly, I went into this totally blind, so we'll see.

Finn (31:24.945)
You may already know this, but I went to go look at the starting list and Jared Hazen is running and Jared Hazen is one of the absolute legends of our sport. Third fastest time ever at Western States. Have you, have you talked with him at all?

Ben (31:34.046)
Yeah. I haven't, but I will say we will, we are not, I am participating. I'm looking to finish. We will, the only time we will be together is at the start line and I will casually wave from the back of the pack.

Finn (31:54.389)
Um, I'm familiar with Ashland area trails to some extent, familiar with Portland area trails to some extent. I've never done any trail running in Eugene. What's the scene like there?

Ben (32:05.662)
Uh, we have kind of extremes. We have groomed trails. I call them where like you can get outside of like, you know, Alton Baker park, priest trail, where it's really nice park trail. And then you can get on crushed gravel where there might be a route every mile that you have to, you have to deal with. Um, but you can also, you know, drive 20 minutes and be on some really rugged country where it's all vert, um, and super fun running.

However, we just got this ice storm, so pretty much all the trails are just decimated. So a lot of it is just, you know, forest service roads that kind of go up.

Finn (32:45.593)
Okay. How long do you think, I guess my question is, is this an experiment or do you think you're gonna be making your home in the ultra trail running space?

Ben (32:55.082)
I have, I can't answer that right now. I got to get through at least 70 miles before I decide. So I also like, you know, you talk about like a marathon build or you talk about like a track build and you're like, okay, do some strength in the fall. Start doing some faster stuff in the winter and get ready for racing in the spring, and I don't feel like I will ever have enough time to properly train for this hundred miles.

Like when I write it down on paper, I'm like, I, there's no way I'm going to get enough training in before the start. Like, well, like I'm trying to like play it really cautious of like, I don't want really big days where I don't recover from, but I also need some really big days. And I don't know where I'm going to fit those in yet.

Finn (33:42.657)
Well, cause I guess I'm wondering, I mean, you're in your mid thirties, so you still got a ton of time in a lot, in my opinion, like you've got a lot of time, whether it's the marathon or ultra is like, how much longer do you want to try to be as competitive as possible?

Ben (33:56.938)
I think competitive is a, is a charge word. It's like what, what I'm going to be competitive at. Like I'm not going to go win Western States. I'm not going to go win UTMB. Um, can I start, can I be in the scene? Maybe just from name recognition and maybe I'll have some great days, but I also think running as a very young man sport, like there's no doubt that if you're 20 years old and you have.

the desire to run 100 milers, you're going to be better than me at 35. Like there's no question. I might be wrong because I haven't run a hundred milers, but I, I know from the marathon side that like, I think the red Rick of like, Oh, you learn and it takes time. No way. If you're 22 years old and you're coming out of college and have a desire to run a marathon, you will run better than my old ass. There's no question.

Finn (34:54.445)
There's, there's a couple interesting outliers in our sport for inspiration. Uh, there was a guy, Ludovic Pomeray, who got fifth at UTMB last year, 49 years old. 49.

Ben (35:04.422)
Incredible, incredible. But I also, and I'm not bashing on the trail community at all, but it isn't yet as popular as track events, right? Their money isn't there. People aren't coming out of college, transitioning to a hundred milers who have the same talent level as world-class marathoners. I'm not throwing shade or anything like that, but.

The money has not always been there, where I think it's starting to.

Finn (35:36.781)
Um, has your move into trails peaked interest of any other interesting people in the track and field or road running space?

Ben (35:45.81)
I would say that I was super motivated by Grace and Murphy. Her ability to do a bunch of different stuff made me super excited. She dabbled on the tracks, she dabbled on the trails, and she did a bunch of stuff really well. And I was like, that sounds really fun. I've lived in this very narrow thought process of what does success mean to me? And...

Finn (35:54.316)
Yeah.

Ben (36:14.834)
I would look on our social and see what she was doing in flag. And I was like, that looks like a blast. It looks like an absolute blast to go spend a weekend up in the mountains and then do a trail or do a track workout. Like that sounds awesome. So my interest was kind of piqued because of that.

Finn (36:25.802)
Yeah.

Finn (36:32.289)
Right on. Yeah, Grayson's an amazing example of that. And it's also cool in her case that she proves that you can be versatile, that you can dabble in the trail space, find a lot of success, and then still, you know, maybe she rips a really fast marathon one day, or yeah, she's still doing stuff in the steeple. It doesn't just go away overnight because you're trading disciplines.

Ben (36:35.713)
Yeah.

Ben (36:54.699)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Finn (36:58.721)
Well, Ben, this has been awesome. Like I said, I'm, I'm super stoked to see what you do at this race. What's the exact date by the way, for people to follow along? What part are we?

Ben (37:07.346)
Well, I think it's March 17th through the 18th, and it will definitely take me more than a day, I'm pretty sure.

Finn (37:15.245)
That's pretty cool that the rabid raccoon 100 is throwing out appearance fees. That's amazing. Okay, cool. We'll make sure to link to all of your social media and show notes in the show notes. Any final thoughts? Like I know you're working on some other cool projects. Is it the Endless Miles project?

Ben (37:19.83)
Yeah, yeah. So.

Yeah.

Ben (37:31.966)
Yeah, endless mileage project. Yeah. EMP for short. Um, yeah, we do two things. Uh, two pillars is the fast forest and then recovered running. We, we plant a bunch of trees. We plant trees that represent American milers who have broken four and four 30. Um, and then recovered running is a super simple act that I've been doing for. Years is collecting gently new and used running apparel and then giving it back to athletes who kind of, they need a little support.

Finn (37:33.625)
Okay, talk about that for a second.

Ben (38:01.802)
athletes who maybe are a little under-resourced, from middle schoolers to high school to a bunch of different programs throughout the state of Oregon.

Finn (38:11.277)
Fascinating. And does that extend into trail at all? Is it mostly a road running, sort of like, high school track initiative, or how does that work?

Ben (38:18.646)
Um, really we, we serve everybody. Um, but, but really it's track and field programs. Um, it's middle school track and field, it's high school, cross country and track. Um, there's a few other programs that we support, but primarily it's, it's running events. Yeah.

Finn (38:37.801)
Yeah, it's something we always think about in trail running, like not every Metro area has easy access to trails. How do we grow the sport, especially at the youth level? But that's a really cool initiative we're working on. We'll make sure to link, link to that as well. Ben, it's a pleasure. Super excited in the scene. Longtime fan. Glad we got the chat. Appreciate the time.

Ben (38:44.33)
Yeah.

Ben (38:48.718)
Appreciate that.

Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, you only have to edit out like 50 minutes. It's cool.