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Brett Hornig and Leah Yingling return to the podcast to preview the 80K Trail Running Championships happening this Friday in Innsbruck, Austria.
We analyze the course, talk about what it's going to take to be successful, note some of the interesting storylines around the event, and make our predictions for the female and male podium finishers this year.
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Welcome back, or welcome to the single track podcast. I'm your host, finn Melanson, and in this episode I'm joined by Leah Yingling and Brett Horning to preview the 80k trail running world championships happening this Friday in Innsbruck, austria. We analyze the course, talk about what it's going to take to be successful, note some of the interesting story lines around this event and make our predictions for the female and male podium finishers this year. In addition to this preview episode, we will also have Mike McMonagall on the ground in Innsbruck capturing daily footage of the athletes and all the races, pre, during and post event. Head over to our Instagram page at run single track to follow the action. Some partnership related news to announce before we get started Morton has joined on to become our official nutrition sponsor and features has joined on to become our sock sponsor. We'll have more to say about these partnerships in the next few weeks as we get closer to Broken Arrow in Western States. For now, we do have a discount code ready for features. If you're in the market for new socks, use code single track 20 at checkout on features website for 20% off your next order. Links in the show notes for more details. Finally, one more thanks before we get started to rabbit the official apparel sponsor of single track. use code single track 20 on their website as well for 20% off your next order. With that, let's get started. What were you saying?
Speaker 2:Brett. Ariana Grande did not drop a new album. There's one in the works.
Speaker 1:Are you, but it's not finished yet. Are you as big an AG fan as you are Taylor Swift?
Speaker 2:No, it's not even close, okay, but I'm definitely a fan of the old AG one.
Speaker 1:There's a line in uh oh gosh, what's the zoo lander? where Owen Wilson's characters like Sting the music that he's making. I appreciate it, but I don't listen to it at all. I totally butchered that quote. but anyways, we are back with another preview episode, this time for the 80k trail championships in Innsbruck, austria. I'm joined as always by friends and colleagues Leah Yingling, brett Hornig Guys. this is a crazy month for the world of ultra trail running. We have this race, broken Arrow, western States, lavarito, just to name a few. How do we keep up? How are you two keeping up? You're super fans of the sport, are you keeping up?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i'm struggling too. I was about to say I am not keeping up Trying my best, but yeah, i think, doing this race preview I was like holy crap, this is a lot. and I feel like I'm gonna feel that way about every other race this month too.
Speaker 2:The crazy thing is how stacked this race is, and yet all the other races going on around now are not maybe not equally as stacked also stacked. There's a lot of really good runners competing on this planet right now.
Speaker 3:I also feel like we're seeing higher rates of injuries than we've seen in recent years too, so I wonder if our increase in competition and just competitive level of races is contributing at all to any of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, are we going through a bit of a renaissance of potential overtraining syndrome? Oh my god.
Speaker 1:Overtraining renaissance.
Speaker 2:Is OTS on the rise again from like 2010?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i mean I have lots of thoughts actually, like I know we were discussing in a thread some Western States training and I feel like just like the training I've been seeing for people for Western States has just like evolved dramatically in the last year compared to, you know, maybe a year or two ago. So, yeah, i think we're seeing some movement.
Speaker 2:We might need to get a graph made of like a whole bunch of just people training for Western States last year versus this year and like maybe their total hours per week in the eight weeks leading up for Western States, because I feel like, yeah, like this year, it feels like everyone's running like five hours more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think I said the other day, 130 miles per week is the new 100 miles per week. So actually doing this race preview was refreshing because I was like, ah, nice, small numbers. But then I looked at the vert numbers and I was like whoa, that's big.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're like oh, look at so-and-so is only running 50 miles a week. 30,000 feet of climbing.
Speaker 1:Brett, what would you attribute this potential resurgence in overtraining to? Is it just the increasing competition and pressure of the sport?
Speaker 2:Well, i guess we can't conclude overtraining yet because, like there's a whole bunch of people who are training a lot right now and running well, we'll see, like next year and the year after, if those people are still running well because, just like looking at their age and like where they are in their careers, they should still be running well in two years. But I think there's yeah, there's definitely that pressure to compete at the highest level and, as of right now, there appears to be a correlation that if you run more, you get better. Can it be done in a smarter way than 10 years ago? I absolutely think so. I think one of the biggest variables that has been changed between 10 years ago and now is there's less racing going on between those people who are training that much. You know, 10 years ago you saw people running 130, 140 miles a week, racing an ultra every single month. We're seeing quite a bit more picking and choosing for the big races.
Speaker 3:so maybe that, however, i will say the qualifying races, i feel like is at least for our US runners may be a detriment to a race like this. You know, we have these qualifying races that are quite close to the actual race itself and I think each week we've seen maybe another runner to pull out of worlds because of injuries, from whether it's a qualifying race for worlds or like even a qualifying race for UTMB or something like that. So I feel like those are putting some runners in a pickle pickle as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is a good point. Yeah, i guess we didn't write that down in the notes, but I guess we could talk about some of the people that were qualified, at least on the US team, that are now unqualified absence.
Speaker 3:Still qualified. but still qualified, yeah, you're right, it doesn't get taken away Scratch.
Speaker 1:Arguably the two biggest names right Jim Wamsley on the men's side and Erin Clark on the women's side Are we? are we chalking those up to just like racing too soon or too much too early? or could it be anything?
Speaker 3:No, i don't think it's too much, too soon necessarily. I think, like for Erin, for example, she had a phenomenal race at Lake Sonoma and racing a hard 50 miles takes a lot out of you and I think I mean it's June 6th right now. Lake Sonoma was less than two months ago, i think. If you're racing a hard 50 mile like you need recovery time. So I think Erin did everything right. It's just the unfortunate reality of racing a hard 50 mile and probably the body just not coming back quite like she had hoped it would.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah, in Jim's case, i imagine this injury that he has probably stemmed from running the 100 miles of Austria and then trying to get back in world shape. which, yeah, there's that fine balance of, like I did this race, i have worlds up. Do I spend the extra two or three weeks recovering and not go into worlds as fit or risk it a little bit, start the ramp up and hopefully make it? and I feel like that was probably the case with Jim, you know, just probably, you know, started ramping up a little too soon after Austria, which unfortunate that he had to race a 100 miler so early in the season just to get back into UTMB, even though he got fourth last year.
Speaker 1:Leah, i feel like you've had this experience of doing it quote, unquote correctly where last year you got that golden ticket at Canyons and then you had to flip things around pretty quickly to be ready for western states. With someone like you, your professional athlete, you're at the top of the sport. How do you withstand the pressure of you know, trying to do a lot in a very small period of time, a small space, and still feel confident that you're getting to the start line, ready to compete and ready to give your all?
Speaker 3:I think a lot of it has to do with what your goals are. So I can see the Jim Wombsley perspective and then I can also see my perspective. Like, oftentimes, my goals aren't to go win a race, it's to have a really solid result at a race. Maybe I should start reframing my goals and it's to go win a race, but I think that helps me, like I've been having this mantra all season with myself for my training and it's probably reflected in my research I did for this episode. But it's good, not great. So just being mindful of, like, the work you're putting in, just make sure it's good enough. It doesn't need to be great, it doesn't need to be exceptional, like ultra running in terms of like the sport itself, it's all about longevity, it's about the build. So having faith and trust in what I've done in the past and just relying on a lot of that and taking the necessary time I need after a race to know like, okay, getting myself healthy is goal number one taking days off. It might be more days than I anticipate. That's goal number one, and then building from there.
Speaker 2:I'd always thought, like you know, training to win a race versus training to have your best race. Does that training actually? should it actually look any different? I don't know if it necessarily does. Like, maybe there's that one training block where you're like, you know, let's, let's f around and find out. You know, see what, see what happens. But you know in most cases. So these races are such high stakes that you don't want to not start it because you got hurt in your training. So then there's those demons that you're fighting the whole time of like I need to be training as hard as I can for this race, but I don't want to be training too hard and get hurt and then not make it to the race. So then you're always playing that game of like, is this enough? is this too much? and then that makes preparing for the race is somewhat tough. So you know, kind of like with like we said, like you just had to have that confidence in yourself, that like you know the extra recovery and then the training that you get in, like that's gonna be your key to get on the start line and give yourself a chance to have a great day yeah, i think too, like, especially with respect to the world's races, is like it's such an honor to represent your country.
Speaker 3:It's a once in a lifetime experience for a lot of these athletes. So I would say, even if these runners are less trained than they like would like to be due to like, maybe niggles in the buildup, they're gonna be on that start line, whereas perhaps at a ccc, utmb, we wouldn't see them on the start line because they're like I'm not my best form, i don't want to give it a go, but at worlds they're like when else am I gonna have this opportunity?
Speaker 2:this is so cool, let's just get after it ooh, so are we putting worlds on the pedestal of importance as higher than the week of utmb in terms of like the race, the team I think it's different.
Speaker 3:The pressure. I think it's different because I like personally last year running it, i felt less pressure than a big stage race, like you know, one of the utmb races, for example because it didn't feel like all eyes were on you. By any means. It felt like you were part of something and I feel like the team aspect of it takes some of that pressure off to some respect do you feel any additional pressure, though, because you're on the team and you don't want to?
Speaker 2:you know, let your teammates down.
Speaker 3:I 100% think so to some degree. So it's like, but that's like.
Speaker 2:I don't know that's like a less stressful pressure because, yeah, it kind of goes both ways, because you know you feel a little bit of stress because you don't want to let your teammates down. You also know that they got your back, which helps alleviate some of that stress and pressure. It's much less. Yeah, like you said, like it's just all eyes on you at utmb because you are, you're the team, so good luck.
Speaker 1:Lee, i'm curious, and I think this is a perfect topic to segue into just given your experience at Thailand last year, racing on the women's team, what were some of the other strategic factors or just things that made that race different from a competition standpoint versus, you know, being solo at western states or canyons or, yeah, just any of these other races you've done in your career?
Speaker 3:yeah, there were a couple things, and one that sticks out to me was just how fast it went out, and I think this is true of most like high level international races. But I mean, i got advice from Caitlin Gerbin on the start line that was like if you want to give yourself a chance in these, like these stacked fields, you need to put yourself in it from the start and like this pace is going to feel hot, but attach yourself to the field. And I think that was represented 100 percent, because we started out with like maybe a mile, mile and a half of pavement and we were like in the sixes running, which is something I would never do in a race, but it felt like something I had to do in this race, especially a mountain race, that starts out you know like that and then you go and hawk it up a mountain because it'll get narrow fast and you want to be in the mix and like know who you're around. So I felt like the pace and the speed and just like the race strategy was quite different. Another thing was just like the opportunity you couldn't falter, like there is are so many people around you at any given time and like time matters in these races. I think we were chatting this morning that, like the ADK, it's scored based on time. So they'll calculate the top three time your top three runners, their time, add them up and that's how they'll score the teams. So every minute counts. So just being able to get every little bit out of you at any point in time is really important. And, yeah, there's just not an opportunity to falter. I feel like it might be this 80-ish K distance, but there's not a lot of carnage. People are tough and they survive And you can't you really just can't bank on a lot of carnage happening in these whenever you're racing at such a high level.
Speaker 2:I think that the way that this race is scored is so fascinating being top three time Because we kind of always harp a lot about how time doesn't matter. It's all about how you place, And that's always kind of been in relation to comparing course records and whatnot, Whereas this is totally unique, where it's like time matters on this particular day because everyone's covering the course on the same day. It's like it doesn't matter how your time compares from last year, but your time matters right now. And, yeah, that creates such an interesting I don't know just scenario of yeah, this is somewhat of a 50-mile time trial, except everyone starts at the same time.
Speaker 1:And Brett, this question is for you two because you obviously have the experience racing collegiately. But is this accountability factor real Like, do you feel this pressure not just to race for yourself but to race for your team, Because every time matters you're trying to score not just for yourself but for your team. Did you feel that experience, that pressure, mid-race?
Speaker 2:I have always raced better when I get to race, for reasons other than just my own performances. I don't know, maybe that's just growing up doing a lot of team sports or something. But there will be times when you're just out there on the trail And you might feel like crap, and if it's just you and there's no team, you could easily pack it in. But you continually get to remind yourself like, oh man, like so-and-so is out there, probably also suffering and hammering through the same low point I'm at. Just because they know that every second, every minute matters out there. Ok, i'm going to keep digging really hard too, because I know that someone on my team is out there doing it as well And I feel like the chances of the entire team USA collectively quitting at the third-aid station probably not going to happen. That would be pretty wild, but I don't predict that. Yeah, i feel like that's going to help bring better performances out of people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think so too. And something I was thinking about quite a bit last year in the race is normally I do mental math in my head in a race And what I was doing last year was mental team. I was counting the members of which countries were ahead of me And which ones. In my head I was like, oh, they're probably ahead of us in the rankings right now. Which one of these people? is somebody I should really try to go pick off, Which is not normally how I'm really ever thinking in a race. So I think that part can actually be quite valuable in a race like this if you need that extrinsic motivation.
Speaker 1:It's pretty wild. As a spectator in all of this, i don't have the experience that you guys have, but you see people give in DNF for non-threatening reasons all the time in our sport. In this scenario, you're not just quitting on yourself, but you're quitting on your team. That's fascinating to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this might be the race where you limp in the last 20k because some other country's third or fourth runner might be having a bad day and you're like, well damn, if I'm the tiebreaker or it comes to me, i got to keep going. This might be the race where people finish super jacked up.
Speaker 3:I think so. Like last year for the women's 80k, Brittany Sharpe and I had the most mangled feet I've ever seen from anybody after an ultra before And she just gridded it out and had an exceptional performance. I think she was in the top 25. But yeah, her feet were in rough shape And she's like I wasn't so much pain for the last two hours of this race, And I think that happens to a lot of people where it's like other things in other races that you'd be like I'm fine just calling it because of this, But you have a lot of motivation to just keep going.
Speaker 1:Switching gears just a little bit. I was reading an article the other day. Claire Gallagher, who is on the women's 80k team, is quoted as calling this the Olympics of our sport, And I'm curious to get both of your takes on this. Typically, when you think of a world championships, it's about competition And we'll get into a much deeper analysis of the fields. But are we getting that here in Innsbruck this coming weekend? Like is this? do you look at these fields and say this is a pretty good approximation of some of the best in our sport lining up for this race? I guess it's pretty close.
Speaker 2:I guess one of the things that one of the downfalls of the Olympics has always been that you can only send three from your country. Like you get some other small races in the Diamond League that are better than Olympic finals because you can have six people from Kenya, six people from Ethiopia. Are there any is like for the long course? are any countries at this point like so deep or is like obvious members that are left off, that or didn't do the race that should have? And I feel like that's still yes, like I think there's room for this to become much more like the Olympics But in terms of the structure, like team that'll count, like opening ceremonies, checks, a lot of those boxes.
Speaker 3:I think so. I think some countries it's very clear that it reflects the Olympics of Trello and ultra running, Like France, for example they put a lot of money, They put a lot of resources, They put a lot of just dedication and time into their athletes And I mean that shows they have phenomenal performances every year as a team, as a federation, just across the board. So I really wish I don't know how we would ever accomplish that on our US teams, Like I think our US teams that we're sending are extremely solid. Do I think they're the best teams we could curate in the US perform at an ADK mountain running championship? No, because there's so many conflicting races going on at the same time, especially with Western states being like a couple of weeks later and broken arrow and things like that, It's just yeah, people get pulled in a lot of directions.
Speaker 2:OK, here's a question I have. Is World's World mountain running championships being every other year? Is that too frequent?
Speaker 1:That's a great question.
Speaker 2:I don't think so. The Olympics are every four years. Should the Olympics be like every other year? I guess with the World Championships for track they do kind of get it every other year.
Speaker 3:I think every other year. I just think, with longevity in the sport, there'd be some people that'd be missing out on an opportunity to represent their country if it was every four years.
Speaker 1:I'm OK with two years as well. I think I just don't want to see this happen again in the beginning or the middle of the traditional ultra-trolling season in future years. I kind of liked the fact, for example, that Thailand happened in what was it? late October, early November last year, lea. I think that that's the perfect time, like an end of the season championships, and we've always been kind of wanting at least in America we've been wanting to fill that November racing slot ever since TNF 50 in San Francisco went away. So I think I'm good with the two years. I just want to see it happen more towards the end of the calendar racing season.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think November, December would be a great time frame. I'm curious how, like the extent of the burnt out athletes we'd get after a throw down at CCC and UTMB and races like that. But I think that's ideal. I agree It's just less to conflict with at that time of year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess a host country like Innsbruck, Austria, they probably can't. Can they host this in November? It's probably too late.
Speaker 3:Too risky.
Speaker 2:October probably You might run into some bad storms still, but beginning of June I feel like they're at the very beginning of their eligible window to host this event.
Speaker 1:It'd have to be a Southern Hemisphere event if we did it in November, december, from here on out, or a West Coast event If it was an American host. It'd be like, yeah, san Francisco Marin Headlands type thing or down in the Phoenix area, but you wouldn't have these awesome European Alps type settings if it was that late in the year.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say you didn't want to have it in August, because I'm sure they're thinking, oh well, it'll totally destroy us. Versus UTMB.
Speaker 3:Oh, I think somewhere like the mountains outside Vancouver would be nice And you could do that like October, November time frame.
Speaker 2:Yeah, And you could build like you can make such a beefy course out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about the course here and the teams in a second, but are there any other interesting storylines or just things that are exciting, you about this race that we should cover before we get into that stuff? Yeah, let's talk about the course a little bit. Let's do it. What makes it interesting, challenging all that cool stuff?
Speaker 3:Well, first off, i think one of the things that makes it interesting is I texted Caleb Olson approximately one and a half hours ago saying can you send me updated course profile and course stats if possible? He said I'll send what I know, but I still am not totally confident that it's right. So I feel like this captures what Worlds was in Thailand And I feel like it also captures what Worlds is like in Innsbruck this year A little bit of modifications close to the race And, yeah, athletes probably aren't entirely in the know of what exact course they'll be doing in two days.
Speaker 2:It's like rally car racing, where you don't most rally car circuits. You kind of know roughly where you're going, but you maybe get to go drive and preview the course once, And then you just have your co-pilot screaming directions at you as you're blindly just flying through these mountain roads. That's kind of how I'm seeing this Worlds course. you know where it's like, I kind of know where I'm supposed to be, but I don't really have any idea what it actually looks like until I'm out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's pretty cool. I mean, I think kind of going in a little blind is nice, like knowing roughly what you're getting like. okay, i know I'm going to have you know six 3000 foot climbs or whatever they might be. I'm just making that number up. But knowing okay, it's going to be like a 52 mile course with I think we've heard somewhere between 19 and 20,000 feet of climbing. Sorry for our metric system Listeners, i'm not going to do the math. Maybe one of you guys has that 6500 meters.
Speaker 2:That's impressive. Yeah, the climbing. The difficulty of this course is insane. Just so, this is a stat from our aid station, fireball. So hard rocks average gain per mile is 323 feet. Utmb's average gain per mile 306 feet. World championships long trail course average gain per mile 396 feet. Wow, so like per mile, this race is quite a bit steeper, both up and down, than hard rock or UTMB. Especially with their the most recent course change. They did a little reroute, i think at the beginning to avoid some avalanche danger. It added like 3k or 4k of distance and 3000 more feet of climbing and descending.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I guess, to put that in perspective too, like this isn't smooth, buttery terrain either, it's like Euro technical And if you've ever seen like how talented some of the Euro runners are on rocks and routes and technical terrain, it is just a sight to be seen. So I don't think this 20,000 feet of climbing in about 50 miles is going to be any easy feat. I think it's pretty tough terrain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have the profile loaded on Strava right now And I'm looking through just some of the segments that the course overlaps And like. So the second climb of the day, this Strava segment, it doesn't even capture like the last half mile of it, but the first, like 75% of the climb, it's 2.6 miles And it climbs 3360 feet. And that's that's just climb number two and climb number one looks about the same, the descent is similar. And then after that second big climb there's like one, three more smaller climbs which are like 1500 to 2000 feet. All of that same gradient, like the first 50k of this race is like. It's just like it's going to be a cheese grater for your legs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think like, given how fast this pace can go out in a race like this, that 50k is going to destroy some people, so maybe that carnage I was talking about will actually happen. I hope there's carnage. I love carnage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because the first big descent from miles five-ish to 10, descends 4000 feet. Everyone gets to just go descend 4000 feet off fresh legs And then go straight into another 4000 foot climb before some like 2000 foot rollers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is interesting too because I think with a course like this I mean, there's been so much chat recently in the ultra running training philosophy world of just you know training specificity for races. So if somebody is training for a race like this and wants to do a similar vert per mile training block of sorts, for 60 miles in a week, you need to be getting about 22 to 23,000 feet, and for 75 miles a week, you need to be getting like 25 to 26,000 feet of climbing. So I think we've all, like done our research and looked at enough Stravas now to know, like, who is really putting in. you know the specificity that's required on a course like this.
Speaker 2:It's hard to live in a spot where you can get that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to ask both of you, based on what you've seen on Strava, Do you think that not just American athletes, but you know other internationals do you think that they've gotten the memo and are respecting the demands of this course and training specifically?
Speaker 2:generally speaking, I think like the Europeans a little more so than the Americans, but that's just kind of due to the nature of where they live. Like most of the European athletes coming over to this race can actually get similar terrain, whereas, like there's not that many spots even in the US where you can like live and get this kind of vert and not just have to like go hike into the mountains living in like a national park or something. Plus, also, it's still it's the beginning of June, like, even like sounds like a lot of the trails are like just getting good over in Salt Lake right now. It's like well, that's too late for worlds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think it's the, I think the Euros like are kind of in a good place. They know what they're getting themselves into And I do agree that like we might be limited a bit and options around here, but yeah, then it's cool to see somebody like that. I know we'll dive a little bit deeper into this but like the athletes on the team who are training up in New England, like I have been enjoying looking at how they're approaching training because it's like okay, maybe they're not able to get on big mountains during the week, but when they get out in like their big vert profiles on the weekend, like they're hammering, so, yeah, taking advantage of the mountains when they do have access to them.
Speaker 2:Here's a question that I had. So there's there's a lot of people on the entrance lists who did compete in Thailand last fall. How much does success from that Thailand course convert over to this Austria course? What do you think, Leah?
Speaker 3:I think quite a bit. I think there were some really, really steep climbs in Thailand. I do think when it was runnable, oftentimes it wasn't terribly technical. So I think this course will definitely have the added technicality. So I think, if any difference we see, we might see people who are better on technical stuff, who might have had a bad day in Thailand or might not have raced Thailand, for example. They might shine a little bit more here. But I think in terms of just like vert punch per mile, really similar.
Speaker 2:Yeah And like, for, I guess, like the lack, not lack of vert in Thailand, but for the you know the slightly less climbing per mile in Thailand. The difficulty got added with the heat and humidity. So take away some of that and add a little more vert to the Austria course. I could see someone who had success in Thailand. You know, having success here.
Speaker 3:And I will say another thing that I think is super important is experience using poles. I, like in Thailand, i forgot my little lucky gloves and couldn't, like you know, click into my poles. And I was just. I was running with a couple women at the time and they got out their poles and I went to open mine. I couldn't because, like, my hands were so slippery and like could not actually open them. So I ended up just running with my poles on my belt the whole time without using them, and the second they pulled them out and started using them. It was like, oh man, mind blowing because the advantage that that gave them in that instant and then I could just visibly see it was so distinctive in that moment. So I think if there's women and men who have a lot of experience using poles and are coming to this race like really ready to like grind it out, that's a significant advantage in a race this short with like so much vert punched in.
Speaker 2:Will we see anyone in the top 10 on either side not using poles, or will this be like a fully pole dominant race?
Speaker 3:That's a good question, i wonder. So, i think, of the women's side. I can't remember if Sunmayia used poles at CCC, but she could potentially be somebody.
Speaker 2:That's something I'll be looking out for.
Speaker 1:And that makes me wonder and this is in Leah, this question is for you, it's going back to your experience in Thailand with the ADK teams. Was there anything about that course or that environment that may or may not have caught the Americans off guard, like humidity or the elevation gain stuff like that, like we're talking about poles here right now and how critical, like being comfortable with that could be for this race? Were there any X factors that ended up playing a pretty significant role in Thailand that you recall?
Speaker 3:Not outside of. like a lot of us didn't use poles, like I didn't use them because I had my yeah, my issues, but that with Caitlin use them, and like Addy hadn't really trained with them but she did use them. Brittany had never used them so she wasn't using them. So I think a lot of the Americans aren't used to training with them And I think that could be a disadvantage in a race like this, to be honest. But yeah, the humidity was just like the added factor but that impacted everybody. So I don't think maybe some like the technical running of, like how technical the course, maybe I think that might be a challenge for the US athletes as well.
Speaker 2:Leah, if you're racing this, this long course, what do you? what do you see? are some like keys to success?
Speaker 3:looking at this course profile, yeah, I actually think I don't take the advice that I said at the beginning of this episode, which is like, get in the mix, Like I think for this race it's gonna require somebody to be patient, Like as I was going through different women specifically this morning as I was doing some research. I'm like that person just needs to survive and they'll be top 20. You know, that's what it's going to take is just like survive the early 50 K and don't beat yourself up on the climbs and descending, because you're gonna want to hammer some of those last descents And if you've already killed your legs at mile 10, like there's no coming back from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I had written down or is like I was. I always try and find like what I think is like the crux of the course And I feel like that last climb leading up to the 50 K mark, like those who can get to that point still feeling relatively good are gonna be able to actually race. Because beyond the 50 K mark there's like a you know 3000 foot descent in like two miles But then from like miles 33 to 42, that's like the most runnable section of the whole course, at least looking at the profile. I don't know how technical it is, but it's like not that steep And if someone has good legs then they can actually open up their stride and run. Well, there I still see there's a lot of opportunity beyond the 50 K mark to make up a lot of time on someone in front of you.
Speaker 1:This makes me curious and, leigh Arbret, both you might have thoughts here, but Mallory Richard has this great like data visualization column in iron far and she recently wrote something about UTMB and like how in touch somebody that wants to be in contention by the end of the race has to be at various aid stations. like at UTMB It's like if you want to be in the top 10 overall you have to be within like 10 places at Cormier. you know you have to be in like the top 20 for a race like this, and maybe even for Thailand last year, do you feel like you have to be in the thick of it early on, like at least within touch of the lead pack, or can you kind of have like a Michael McKnight type race and, you know, either come back from way, far back or whatever to have a good day?
Speaker 3:I think you need to be in the mix to some degree. So like top 20 to be in the top 10, you know, maybe top 25, probably at some point early in the race to be in the top 10. I think to be on the podium, you always need to be in the top 10. And, like something that just is like ingrained in my mind is in Thailand there was this out in back section, so I got to see all the women ahead of me and a lot of the men And I would say this was probably like this was the most competitive race I had ever participated in. But just seeing like how hard everybody was working And this was, like you know, 35 miles into a 50 mile race and seeing like how hard, how serious everybody was, that like, yeah, you need to be in the mix because, like people aren't really letting up, like they're powering through this. So it was really cool to see, because it's not often that you get to see the faces and the grimaces of the people up ahead of you and like how hard they're truly working. But I just remember seeing I think it was Gemma just looking like so serious, so focused and so dialed and being like dang. Is that what it takes?
Speaker 2:Okay, I have an interesting thought.
Speaker 1:Is there ever a scenario? Right, you're crushing the question game. I'm loving these.
Speaker 2:Right and I'm like totally it's doing maybe my out of a job?
Speaker 1:Am I out of a job here?
Speaker 2:I think of better questions in the morning. We're recording this in the morning. Okay, is there ever a scenario at this world mountain running championships, we're tactically playing it in favor of your total team time outweighs. like the best person on your team going forward to win, like I'm thinking in terms of like Zach Miller right now he could win this race, but that could be at the expense of not finishing or like a colossal blow up. At what point is that not worth? like security of another team gold medal, gold medal, because that's a very interesting change in tactics for someone who's like they're like the low stick on each team.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think that's how we're going to see Zach Miller race right, there is just going forward. So, and I think that's what. I think that risk is what he needs to take for the US men to have a chance to battle for gold.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, Yeah, i think for this year I agree, like they're like to be a winning team this year. I think you probably do need someone on the podium, Like I don't think you can have like a six, seventh, eight. come in and win.
Speaker 3:Totally, because, like you need, you need that, you need somebody up there. If you look at, like the men's, i think the men, the French men, had three in the top 10 last year and they didn't win because we had Adam in first place in like a fast time, a fast time. So yeah, I think you might need somebody to really go forward and hopefully it sticks for a podium spot.
Speaker 1:That's so crazy to think, though. Is it selfish not to adjust your racing style for this event?
Speaker 2:Yeah of like I'm going to win or I'm going to drop out. It's like sick Thanks to you, Like you're going to get gold or we're not going to even be invited to the award ceremony.
Speaker 1:Another thank you to sponsor HVMN. Hvmn is my choice for exogenous ketones. If you are curious about using exogenous ketones in your training, racing and day to day life, head over to HVMNcom, get a bottle of ketone IQ and if you want a 20% discount in the process, use code single track 20 at checkout for 20% off your next order. That's a really good question. Well, i would love to walk through starting to talk about teams and athletes, and I'd love to walk through the women's, the American women's team. First, leah, we could talk about strengths, weaknesses, storylines, predictions, but I think first I want to ask you, when you look at this team top to bottom, what are your first impressions? What do you see as the potential for this team in terms of scoring?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think we have a really solid team, a lot of women who I think will actually be quite close together and I think they'll get to work together quite a bit, which is all the part of, like, the most fun of a team race like this. So we have Claire Gallagher, sarah Kies, hannah Algood, alison Baca, emily Schmitz and Shay Aquilano. So Emily Schmitz was the replacement when Erin Clark had to pull out with injury. But, like, when I look at this list, i see Claire Gallagher as an outlier. She's the only one in this field who has won on several international podiums. So CCC and Western States. I see as her just extremely impressive races here. But then you have somebody like Emily Schmitz who's been on several in the top five of a lot of international races. But I do see, like Emily Schmitz, sarah Kies, hannah Algood, alison Baca probably working together quite a bit. They all are very similar athletes in my mind of being like strong mountain athletes who have some leg speed, so I think they're going to have the opportunity to work together quite a bit.
Speaker 2:Is the entire US women's team. None of them competed last year at Thailand, right?
Speaker 3:No, but Claire has been on a past team.
Speaker 2:So it's a fully new team from last year, but Claire has been on the team before.
Speaker 1:That's a great question to me. It's like is how much benefit would we see if there was a fair bit of continuity in teams, like if you kind of just ran it back Leah, for example, with your team in Thailand last year, with that Increased familiarity and experience, be something you could build on top of this time around?
Speaker 3:I mean, i think it could, like you, look at the French team and their team, the French women's team, is, i think, nearly identical to what they delivered in the fall, which I'm sure we'll see a very similar result out of them then, given that. So I think I think it's helpful, but it's also cool to see a different team as well. I, this team actually reminds me quite a bit of the team that we had in the fall in terms of like We are all like really solid together, and there was a lot of us like, i think We're all probably within like 10 places of each other by the end of the race roughly, and I think we're gonna see that at least with three of these runners.
Speaker 2:You know, i'm just looking at the like past results and yeah, yeah, at least I At a minimum team France returns their top three. I think they're top four which, having experienced the world mountain running, an environment, like you said, like the crazy start and just like the energy going through and You know, you had said at one point one of our previous episodes is, like you know, the aid stations and the crewings a little different because there's more rules with who you can be your crew, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, last at Worlds, in the fall I was like USA TF team staff was your crew and this is. It poses some challenges, to be honest, because if you're all very close together, there's like two people to maximum three people within the crew tent that have to Provide aid to. You know, six runners who might be really closely packed together, so not super efficient at times, but I mean God bless them because they had never crude any of us in our life. So you have to give a lot of learning to do on the fly with your crew as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's an advantage, I think, to someone who's then been there before, especially like the crew person. If you know, i assume team France probably brought back their crew person from Thailand. You know, like that's very helpful. They're. They're gonna understand how crazy it is and like maybe fix some things from the first few aid stations of like Oh, i got to get this dialed in to To be quicker. You know, try and emulate like the little green guy from cars. You know Like be like that one person to like chuck all the tires up and just like And then they all just go out, like I assume team Italy So clearly fins a cars fan yeah, i have not seen cars, so I can't really.
Speaker 1:So one thing I think about a lot in the middle of the night, if I wake up and I can't sleep. It's just how many references Brett has made. That totally went over my head, which is probably a lot, but when I get them, it's just, it cracks me up.
Speaker 2:I guess I watched too much TV. Is that what that means? No, you can learn a lot about crewing by watching cars, so you should go watch cars.
Speaker 1:But, lee, i've one other question for you, and you know I we've talked a lot on this podcast about people like Claire Gallagher and Hannah Allgood and Sarah Kais Not a lot of folks, or at least we have not done our due diligence talking about people like Alice in Baca. So, for people that aren't familiar, can you talk a bit about Alice in Baca, for example, and her potential at this race and some of the work She's done?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, she's one of my favorites in this field because she's so underrated and She's just an incredible, incredible athlete. So she is in Colorado and I would say she first came on my radar a year or so ago I believe she raced, i want to say, like Aaron Clark at Red Hot And put up a fight with her throughout that race and actually ended up with a great result. And she's also. She ran like one of the Cirque series races up at Brighton like few months postpartum, just absolutely crushing it. So she's a mom, i think she has a little two-year-old and has just really Worked on the things that matter and I think we're gonna see a lot more of Allison in the next couple years because I think it's all coming together Really nicely in the last like six months to a year. So she's super fast, has a ton of leg speed just threw down like a really fast half marathon Somewhere in her Lake Sonoma build up and then just ran solid all day long at Lake Sonoma Securing a spot on the team. She had, i think, a 13th place at Western States last year which nice wasn't quite the result I know that she wanted But just really solid all day. She's a fantastic climber and one of the best descenders that I know. She trains on a lot of technical descents quite often and just hammers them, and Looking at her training for this race was I just kept thinking every time I'd see a run from her like she's doing all the right things, and one of my favorite runs that she did was it was out on, i think, jefferson Mountain or something out by her and this was a 25 mile run with 12,000 feet and she oh no is Morrison, mount Morrison and she did Mount Morrison double and then did this like I think, three and a half times and what I loved the most about it I majorly Strava stock to this was just like her consistency on the run. So there's a Strava segment for Morrison double and She did an hour 34 on the first one, hour 35 on the second, hour 36 on the third, with her final descent being like the fastest of her day. So I think Like a workout, long run like that is exactly what you need for worlds. If you look at the profile of this run, she had to play like seven to nine independent climbs on this run. So just like beating her legs up over and over and over and being able to turn around once you descend to just go Huck it up the mountain at the same pace you did on your first climb. It reminds me a lot of the training that I've done that have given me confidence in my training over the years, like I do the roof of six hour every year and one of my goals is to run each lap entirely consistent like this and having My last one be my fast one, and I think having a training run like that is confidence inducing. But I also think it sets you up really really well for a race like we'll see up worlds. So super excited about her. Her training has been like 70 miles 19,000 feet, 85 miles, 22,000 feet, 80 miles 17,000 feet, so a lot of that vert range that we talked about at the beginning of the episode of What you probably need to be doing for a race like this. So that, combined with her technical descending, i think she's gonna surprise a lot of people and I'm really excited to follow along.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say I bet for folks that are listening, we probably saw a record number of fantasy free trail revisions after that analysis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right now.
Speaker 3:I know I think I even wrote in my like notes about Allison calling that like long run. She did. I said this run was a work of art. It was just beautiful, so, so excited for her.
Speaker 1:That matters. Leah, if you're categorizing this team like you're looking at people that are capable of Securing like a top 10 overall this race versus a top 20, where are you placing individual members of this women's team Approximately, or predicting them, i should say?
Speaker 3:I think We could see like a surprise Eric Lapuma race out of one of these women. And what I mean by that is Eric Lapuma ran for seventh place at Worlds last year. Nobody was expecting him to do that. He threw down, and it was I. I might be speaking for him when I say, but I think it was the best race of his life and that was really cool to see. I think we could see Allison doing something similar. I think I think we could see three of our women in the top 15, which I believe is what we saw on the men's side last year. So I think Claire not entirely sure what type of shape she's in these days I think she went straw but dark recently, so a tough one to follow along. But I know Abby Levine said that she is alive, she's thriving and she's putting in the work. So yes trust an Abbey on this one. Another person is Sarah Kays. Her training is really cool. I know she switched coaches Earlier this year and has been like leading up to Lake Sonoma. We dove into her training quite a bit where she was really focusing on speed And like doing some really fast stuff. So I think that training block, combined with what she's been doing now for this block, which is incorporating some speed during the week still and then going out to the mountains and just like hammering on the weekends And like 20 mile runs with seven to eight thousand feet of vert, i think that's gonna be a nice combo for her, especially with her familiarity with technical climbing. Seeing a similar block out of Hannah all good too. So I really do think Sarah Allison and Hannah We're gonna see them probably working together most of the day.
Speaker 1:What do you estimate the ceiling to be for this team Like? are they competing for a medal? Which countries are gonna give them the biggest run for their money? How do you analyze all that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think. I Think they're 100% competing for a medal. I think France is gonna be a very tough team to beat, having, i mean, they had three women in the top six last year And I mean their top five was all probably in the top 20. So I think they're the team to beat. I think it's gonna be really tough to beat them. I think we would need a US woman to have an outstanding podium performance In order for our women's team to compete with France. In my opinion, Yeah but I think second or third place is 100% A target.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I had written down to, where it was like I think the women's US team, usa, can hop on the team podium, but it's gonna take. You know, like that look like we need like one pretty low stick And then we need someone else to have that. Eric Lepuma best race of their life. Yeah like outperform a, a performance that they've, you know, like the best performance they've ever had. If we can have those two and then three runs, as they should, that can absolutely get on the podium. I.
Speaker 3:Think so too. So, like last year with the women long trail, france won by pretty much a landslide. When they totaled up the top three times, i think France had won by about 50 minutes, and then Spain was in second, and then the Italian women's team was in third, and The gap from second to third was an hour, 10, hour 15 or so.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I that's a pretty big gap from second to third. So, say, france and Spain are in the mix. Again, i think US is in that, that second, third position.
Speaker 1:I Apologize because I didn't do deep enough research to know exactly how all of these teams build their teams from a qualification standpoint, but I think the Americans have one of the shortest turnarounds from Lake Sonoma to this race, so this affects people like Preston, caleb, allison, hannah drew Since we're on the women's race, looking at Allison and Hannah, do you see them at any disadvantage Leah or Brett just given that short window turnaround in the amount of training they've been doing, or Do you think it looks, based on Strava, like they're coming into this ready to go?
Speaker 3:I Think they're coming into it ready to go. I Was.
Speaker 2:I feel like they must be at some sort of disadvantage with the short turnaround I Mean. I was like look at the few that didn't make it to the start line. Because I just looked, france had their national championships, was the qualifier. It was March 19th, so it was almost a month earlier. Then Sonoma is. Sonoma was in March. Do you think we see Aaron Clark racing like you get like a whole nother month? That's pretty helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know. I will say, though I think the style of blocks that the women put in, so Sarah Kai's also ran Sonoma too. I think the the type of block for Sonoma Actually builds quite well into this, because it's like they put in this, like seed Verde block for Sonoma, Hopefully recovered. And then now they're doing like chunky mountain training.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know it is easy to overdo the chunky mountain training, especially when it's like the first one of the year coming off of winter. So Maybe for some of these it's a blessing in disguise that they only got to do like six good weeks of this instead of the opportunity to do 12.
Speaker 1:One last question on this before we make predictions, leah, in your opinion, how, from an overall medal opportunity standpoint, how big of a loss is Aaron Clark to this woman's team?
Speaker 3:I think she's pretty big. She's such a fighter. I love how she races. Her CCC finish and the way she moved up and stayed solid in the field was one of my favorite races to watch to date. I think she would have been in the top 10 here, which makes me sad, but for her especially. But I know she'll come back stronger, so I do think it's a loss. I will sugarcoat that, but Yeah, i think she would have been one of those people that would have, yeah, surprised us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean she would have contributed to the CCC reunion party totally, which is a pretty big one on the women's side. It's huge, which is that's. I mean, yeah, that's what I'm most excited about and I feel like, what do you think you know? success at CCC last year, I mean, i guess if you, if you take similar fitness From you know last year CCC into this race, i see that converting decently well And I think so. There was a lot of very high performers. I mean we've got first, second, fifth, all lining up again.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say returners from Thailand last year. We have seven of the top 10 for women. So Blandine, gemma, rosanna, audrey, marion G-Dude, dita and Sunmaya all top 10. So the only ones were missing are Eda, esther and mighty. So I think like this is gonna be kind of this combo of like CCC, and then you Thailand worlds last year. Brett, who's your podium?
Speaker 1:for this race. I'm picking Blandine.
Speaker 2:Lyrandell to win Leondell Leondell, i think. Ray, yeah, i'm listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why am I listening to you then? Hey, i took high school French. Okay, if so, facto.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if so facto, you should be running for team France transitive property of high school French. So I've got Blandine to win. I mean Braining World Champ, ccc champ, it seemed. Has seemingly just moved up in distance so well, has a short trail world championship title to her name as well. I've got. I've got Blandine winning. Who do I have a second? I've got I'm gonna butcher this one Manon Baud of France as Second, just with the win at Madeira, 20th in Thailand. But like we get to eliminate the weather variable And then I'm just thrown. I'm throwing Claire Gallagher on the podium and just Claire balls out third place. Just because, like, if we just look at like Claire's wins, like yeah, this is pretty Different maybe from what Claire's excel that. But one thing Claire's excel that is racing really well. We're looking like Western Stage Champ, a CCC champ, one Leadville, one black Canyon's, like Claire's good at performing on a big stage. So I'm just I'm giving weight to Claire in that regard. I Had I made my top three for team USA as well, but like now I'm really wanting to revise it and throw Allison in the mix because I just Wasn't as well-versed. I had Claire, hannah, all good Syracys, but now I'm tempted to bump Allison up to that number two slot, just with All the convincing you had just done Allison's training leading up to it. But you know if we're throwing Claire in that low stick, you know third spot you know we're, i'm assuming decent time close to first and second. Allison has that baller day. I Hannah runs really well. I think that I don't know if that beats France just because of how like France is. Like. I don't know if France can put together a better team than they have, which that's unique, but I can totally see Team USA slotting into that silver spot if they have a great day there.
Speaker 1:Before League goes. I just gotta say cause I know there's been this whole conspiracy theory that I just copy all your picks, which may or may not be true, but I did have the exact same podium as Brett.
Speaker 2:No way I figured all of our podiums would be extremely different for this race.
Speaker 1:I had the exact same. and I'll just add one thing about Claire. I think that she is the one of the biggest gamers in all of our sport, like if there's anybody that thrives off of, like the biggest moments in these challenges, it's her. And even if maybe we look at her training and we say that's like minimum viable fitness for this race, i think that she's somebody that can take that fitness and that level of training and take it up two or three steps and compete with someone like a landine or a Manon. So I also have her as my flyer to get on the podium.
Speaker 3:I mean I will also mention it, like we have not mentioned so many women in the field. And like I, mean we would be here for hours if we did. Yes, but yeah, i think somebody that wasn't in Thailand last year let me. I'll just talk about my podium, but yeah, landine's gonna win. Landine is so solid and I don't see anybody really challenging her. I think she won. Actually, i was talking to Eda about this a training camp and Eda was leading for a lot of the race last year, so Eda did put up a fight with landine during Worlds last year, so perhaps somebody else will give her a fight early in the race this time around. But yeah, i do think landine will win. I think we'll see Azara Garcia in second, so we haven't mentioned her yet. She wasn't. I actually don't. I think she was in Thailand last year but just didn't have a great day. She recently won the ADK of Trans Grand Canaria this year, which is quite technical, quite birdie, and I know she just completely crushed that course. I think she'll be in the mix all day And I think we'll see Rosanna, who was fifth last year. I think we'll see her have a solid result for third. I think she's just been on such an upward trajectory with the top five at CCC last year as well. Really, really loved watching her run. She was one of the people that just took off with her polls last year And I'm never to be seen again in the race around me. So I think she races really smart and she's just powerful. So I think that's the podium And I think I'll have a hot take for once in my life, because I feel like I'm usually pretty predictable, i think.
Speaker 2:Allison Baca will be.
Speaker 3:I don't think Claire will be in the top 10. I think we'll see Allison Baca be in the top 10.
Speaker 1:We're clipping that Allison will be in the top 10.
Speaker 2:Allison top American. What do you think Team USA finishes as?
Speaker 3:a team, if they have a good day. I think they will be. It's gonna be a really tight battle between second and third. I think we'll come out second.
Speaker 2:Between who Spain Yeah.
Speaker 3:Italy, okay, spain Yeah, and Spain's got some other solid runners in there as well, gemma as well, i believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, third at Worlds last fall, brett, you wanna take us through the USA men's team and maybe, for starters, just talking about the potential for what this team can do, how it's structured.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've just got five, because Jim Wamsley's announcement that he was hurt and not able to run Worlds was beyond the deadline to add a sixth member. Okay, well, now that I'm saying it out loud, who would the sixth have been? Who would have Jim's replacement been? Dude, you're on fire with the questions today.
Speaker 1:This is great.
Speaker 2:I'm just curious So like who at Sonoma was one spot down Like that didn't make it. I'm doing some faster research here.
Speaker 1:Does the Jeff Colt take an overnight flight over and run it back for round two in Austria?
Speaker 2:Other question is Drew Holman gonna run Western States?
Speaker 3:I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I think he has removed himself from the entrance list. It's just not updated. on Ultra's signup. I thought there was something like that, but I'm here for that double.
Speaker 1:That's a great. Those are two great audience questions. Who would you have filled that Jim Wamsley spot with on the men's team? And should Drew Holman attempt the Trail Champ, Western States double.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean one of. So it's on a. It's a week between worlds and states. It's like a week shorter or a week less time to recover than normal, like I'm just. I'm remembering like 2015,. David Laney did the world, the world mountain running, western States double. He actually did the world mountain running Western States WTMB triple that year And I think he was like 15th at worlds and then eighth at Western States. But he did have one extra week of recovery from what it would be this year Doble, though doable.
Speaker 1:Another name that comes to mind is Adrian McDonald. I think we saw him at Sonopee trying to make a couple teams in the shorter distances. I feel like he's actually best suited, if anything, for the ADK type event. So he might have been a replacement if he submitted a resume.
Speaker 3:I'd say somebody like Stephen Kersh or Jeff Moguvero. I wonder if they would have submitted something, but I could have seen them doing like the kind of Transvolcania worlds kind of back to back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jeff Moguvero, that would have been a good one. So I did a terrible job of previewing the Team USA.
Speaker 1:We just talked about everyone who's not on Team USA. That should be.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna list through the names right now. So Drew Holman, zach Miller, eric Lapuma, preston Cates, caleb Olson, drew, caleb, preston all got auto spots from Lake Sonoma. Drew was first, caleb was second, preston was third, zach Miller and Eric Lapuma got the application spots. Eric Lapuma I mean kind of to no surprise was seventh at Worlds last year. It makes sense that if he applied he would get a spot. Zach Miller was on the. He ran the short course last year. They're the 38K town. He got 23rd, which was interesting because we kind of thought Zach's better distance might be the longer one. So I'm excited that he's got accepted for this long course Was fifth at UTMB last year. Yeah, this is an interesting team because we've got like Zach Miller's the veteran. I guess He's been in the sport for a long time. He's had some great European results. Eric Lapuma had arguably the best race of his life last year at Worlds. Can he replicate Caleb? some of his best races have actually been in Europe as well. I mean he's had two amazing CCC performances. I feel like if anything like Lake Sonoma was the one that was the question mark because it wasn't as long, it wasn't as difficult, but then he ran really well there. I'm curious about Drew and Preston Cates on a extremely mountainous course like this. You know Drew has been pretty. He picks and chooses his races very wisely And I'm not sure if this course is one of those races that he would choose. So I'm really curious how those mountain legs are gonna come out. And like I just honestly I don't know too much about Preston's like previous race history other than third at Sonoma's legit, and he was like jacked after the race, like he was. So him and Drew were both zombies for so long after that race, like they went to the well.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They went below the well.
Speaker 3:I was going to comment on that. Yeah, Preston, like he goes deep into the well And I think he was one of the people after Sonoma where I was like they all. He looked like crap, Like super happy he made the team, but he looked rough, I think something similar way too cool. He was actually, I think, leading most of that race and then ended up getting passed in the last mile and a half like zombie walking and ended up dropping back to fourth. So I think my one concern with Preston is just like how resilient can he be over this course?
Speaker 2:Has he done a race this long in terms of like hours?
Speaker 3:Canyon's 100 K will probably be similar timeframe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, perhaps I'm pulling up his ultra signup profile right now.
Speaker 1:And just to close the loop on the other thing earlier. So if we were to take another person from Sonoma on the men's side, Tracen Knapp finished fourth and Chris Myers finished fifth And I think Tracen might actually be out there anyways for one of the shorter course events.
Speaker 3:He's Claire Rhodes' partner.
Speaker 1:Claire Rhodes' partner. okay, So it's gonna be on the short course.
Speaker 3:The 40 K team. Yeah, the men's team is really interesting to me because, i agree, I think the ADK is much more Zach Miller's strength and the training he's been throwing down, oh my Lord, it is wild.
Speaker 1:The six by one mile.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, yeah, what was that? Six by one mile, with like 1500 feet in those one miles He's been just doing the volume like 125 to 140 miles per week, like upwards of 35,000 feet of climbing. I think he knows what he needs to do to succeed at a race like this, so I think he's very much gonna go for it And like we might very well see Zach Miller end up on the podium, given that He will be team USA's low stick.
Speaker 2:That was my pick for the team USA finish order was I think Zach Miller is going to be the top team USA finisher. Second finisher for team USA I have Caleb Olson. I think Caleb's finally becoming more confident in his abilities as a runner on like the big stage. I think Lake Sonoma was a big step because even at around the 50k mark he was in fifth and like he was like I feel like shit. And then, like Leah, you were like take these goos and eat them and just go be, go be better. And then Kayla was like okay, you're right.
Speaker 3:And then did that.
Speaker 2:You know like I'm pretty, that's what I heard.
Speaker 3:the conversation was like Oh, yeah, caleb was a big baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I think that was a big turn Point for him in terms of just his racing competence of like Oh damn, you're right, Like I can, I can go. I can go below the well, which is something that I think he's still learning, because he's still fairly new to running in general, like he didn't have much of like a high school or collegiate running background. So some of those things that you know you learn then he's learning right now. So I think Caleb's still pretty far from his ceiling And I've got Eric Lepuma rounding out the American team Just cause, yeah, I think he's solid in that race.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you both about this. When you look at the American men's team, is it a lot of role players like quote unquote, role players that can, when they come together, put together a good result? Or are these a lot of these folks like Caleb and Eric? are they budding stars that at some point in time, will kind of be recognized on the same plane as Zach Miller? What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 3:Um, i think they're all quite different, in my opinion. Like, i think, zach Miller we all know how Zach Miller races, he's his own and we don't see anybody else on the team like this. I think Drew I actually do think we'll see Drew higher than you think Brett um, i loved how he raised UTCT. He was only six minutes behind Hans, who is arguably one of the best mountain trail runners at the long distance stuff we have in the world right now. Um, and he just worked his way into that position And I, we saw him race like Sonoma, very similarly, like he just went off in the second half of that race. So I think if he approaches this race with a similar strategy, he's going to fare really well against a lot of the competitors who kind of go out at a more aggressive pace. And then I think we'll see Caleb and Eric working together. I think Caleb and Eric are similar, similar runners. Um, they were both. I, when I looked at their trainings there's one of the training I looked at and I was like they're doing all the right things And Caleb especially, i mean like he's been his training box has been like yeah, 50 some miles with like 20 plus thousand feet. So Caleb spent probably the last like eight weeks just really up in the mountains, mostly playing but also, i think, putting in some good training too. But I mean he trains on snow, technical stuff like Steve stuff, fast stuff, so he does a little bit of everything And I think um Eric Lapuma's training looked uh kind of similar, just really targeted long runs especially.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely To add on to the to the Caleb note. I was talking with him just before he left for Innsbruck and he said this may not have been my best training block but without a doubt it was the most fun training block I've had in my trail running career to date. So I would encourage listeners if you want to see some of the craziest like early spring uh summits of these classic mountains in the wasatch, like the Pfeiffer horn and loam peak, go check out Caleb's straw because he put it all out there great photos, a lot of glissating involved. He without a doubt had a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but he's not going to have crew chief Leah there, so we'll see, yeah, i know.
Speaker 1:We need, we need a emergency. Fly you out there.
Speaker 3:He's maybe Mike.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe Mike can yell at him. Just tell Mike what to say. And then on the international side, this Vence fields also. It's, i mean, it's also very stacked. Um, i've got, i've got Hans Nomburg are winning this race. Um, yeah, he's so solid. Uh, the only little blip was the eighth place this year at Pennia Galosa, 60 K. Um, kind of short though, and per, i mean who? maybe? just, i'm just going to assume he's trained in straight through. It was probably midway through a 50,000 foot week, 140 miles, you know, uh, but you know, first at ultra trail, cape town. First at La Verado. First at Pennia Galosa, 106 K, last year, i think. I think Hans Nomburgers is the one who's going to, you know, take the top spot And then, like a regularly great performer at these world championship races, is Nicholas Martin of France. He's been in the top 10 at world's events on five different occasions, going back to 2013,. Um, with just one of, there was one result in between those 2013 to now where he was like 19th, but all the other ones were top 10s second last year at worlds. I'm throwing them second again. And then I've got Andreas Reiterer from Italy getting third, because he got third at worlds last year. Third at Transilcania, third at CCC. If so facto he's good at getting third, your move.
Speaker 1:Brett. Just going quickly back to the American man, i want to just give a little bit more of a shout out to Eric Lapuma. We had him on the podcast maybe a month and a half ago and he had I don't know if this is a hot take, but he he was of the mindset that, training for these European Alps races, you can actually do a lot of great stuff in Northern New England where he is based And um, for example, he did this 20 mile seven K training run outside of Waterbury, vermont, doing repeats on Campbell's hump on the long trail, which is super impressive. But just a month before that he did a 20 mile run at six minute pace, uh, spectating the Burlington marathon up there. So his versatility right now is insane to me. And granted, he did, you know, run Chuck and nut in March. So probably there's some residual fitness and you know specificity from that. But I'm very excited to see how someone like him does, given that he had that race at Chuck and nut, and then he turned things around pretty quickly to get ready for this race and how that all comes together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Eric. Eric seems like a pretty smart dude, Um and like pretty well calculated.
Speaker 1:But anyways, sorry I had to throw that in there because big Eric Lapuma fan and uh gotta give some love to the Northeast. Uh, athletes, yeah, and I think guys, we've got um nine.
Speaker 3:Nine from the top 10 returning from world champs in Thailand. So on the men's side, so I think the only one missing is Adam Peterman.
Speaker 2:Leah, what would you have for a podium out there?
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, We're going there. Um, yeah, Nicholas Martin second. He has second at the world champs, like you mentioned, Um, and he's just solid. He recently just won the Sky tour day Mathis in, if that's how you say it, um, team France. I think he solid and has the experience. Uh, second place, i think we're going to see Hans, who did not run worlds last year I don't believe, um, but one UTC T and had like just an amazing 2022, i believe, and amazing 2021, just winning some of the best races, like Madeira. Um, he's had a sixth place UTMB, a 12th place at CCC, so he's really solid. I think this type of course is what he's good at too. Um, so I think he'll probably be in that mix and, you know, maybe replace Adam Peterman a little bit in this race for another one of those top runners. And then, oh gosh, let me see here, i don't really, i didn't really have my a third place in mind, but you know what? I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go, drew home, drew home run, huh Yeah. So I guess one of my like the so Andreas, uh Retear, or however you say it I'm sorry, andreas. um, he was just, he was third in Thailand, uh champ, world champs and then was third at Transylvania and third at CCC last year, so I think he will be in the mix. Um, i kind of see Drew Holman giving us, like Dakota Jones, esk performance here. So, Dakota beat Andreas at Transylvania um by quite a bit, um. so I think I think we'll see Drew on a podium position, shocking the world.
Speaker 2:That helps team USA's team chances a lot.
Speaker 1:I was just going to ask who's going to step up, and it's true.
Speaker 2:Cause if Drew and Zach like say Zach's just outside the podium and Drew is on the podium, you throw in a reliable Eric LaPouma, like that's a potential repeat gold team. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think so, and I think we could definitely see four US men in the top 15, i think Um some names that we didn't mention that were in the top 10 last year here, um her sit, jose Fernandez, from Spain, was fourth. Arets um Cesar Ross, from Spain, was fifth. Thibault Gourivier, from France, was six. Eric Puma, like we mentioned, was seventh. Uh Peter Ferrano, from Slovakia, was fifth. Uh was eighth. Diedrich Hermanson, from uh Norway was ninth, and then Paul Mitho, from France was 10th. So, yeah, france had three in the top 10, i believe, last year, and they're all three And they returned their top three. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I got to share a quick story about Thibault Gourivier and Leah. we might actually have been there together at the finish line of UTMB, but Thibault got 10th at UTMB last year And promptly after crossing the finish line just laid down for like 30 minutes I guess he had, and had calories for like 85 miles. So you talked about the guttsiness of like Preston Preston Cates earlier. Thibault is one of the gutsiest runners I've ever seen. toughest runners I've ever seen. Um, i'm very interested in seeing how he does here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so for the men's team results. Last year USA we've won by six minutes, so every minute matters. And then France had beat Spain by about 30 minutes. So it was US and France up top, and then Spain with a nice third there.
Speaker 2:Do you think um? you know, usa, france, spain Are those kind of the top three teams to be looking at too.
Speaker 3:I think so, and something notable too is Adam Peterman beat Nicholas Martin by 13 minutes. So had Adam not finished obviously as with much of a gap over France, second place there that probably would have been a different story. So I do think having that like top performance is extremely important here. I do think Italy has a solid team as well.
Speaker 2:I do too. It was like I don't know if it performed. They performed great in Thailand, but a lot of the team Italy members, or a couple of them this year, have already had pretty good performances, so perhaps, maybe just it looks like Italy might be coming into this race a little bit better prepared than Thailand last year. So I would be on the lookout for Italy as a team as well. Now, finn, what do you think?
Speaker 1:My podium is Nico Martin, second at Thailand last year in the long trail six. That OCC in 2022. As you mentioned earlier, eighth world championship appearance. Looks like he's done pretty specific training for this event, so I have him for the win. Tebow, as I mentioned earlier, in second, sixth in Thailand last year, as Leah mentioned. And then my flyer I love the Drew Holman pick. Leah, i think that's awesome And I would love to see it happen. I'm going to go a little bit more predictable. I'm going Zach Miller. I think he's put in pretty consistent big volume these last eight weeks. Work ethic has never been an issue for him, although you know we talked about overtraining at the very beginning of the conversation. He's always written that fine line, i feel like. But I got him in third and I feel like, similar to Claire Gallagher, he brings that competitive rise to the occasion spirit had a really tough fifth place finish, nearly caught Jim at UTMB last year And I just love to see him compete in these truly meaningful races. So throwing him in there as my flyer.
Speaker 2:OK. So if you have France going one two in the race, how do you have America winning the team battle? You're an American, aren't you? Or is this your high school French class bias coming out again too? What's up with that, finn?
Speaker 3:He doesn't math. Really sounds like you have team.
Speaker 2:France getting gold.
Speaker 1:I've got one word, lawyer, i plead the fifth.
Speaker 2:So is that going to be your hot take for? for the episode team, you've got team France taking the men's gold.
Speaker 1:I've got team France taking the men's gold And I'm using that as reverse psychology motivation for team USA. Nice Chip on the shoulder. I'm intentionally putting a chip on their shoulder.
Speaker 2:I think it's going to be super close, though, like it's going to come down to who can hammer that last descent the best.
Speaker 1:Was this a lock if Jim was racing for the men's team?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:I think so. Yeah, i don't know, finn, you'll be able to create a better sporting analogy of Jim sitting out and then team USA still winning. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean last year we talked about the Jeff Colt flu game. You know, I don't know what, what this year's reference is going to be off to think about. It will maybe promote it on social after the fact.
Speaker 2:But yeah, this is going to be a live stream. Live streamed.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And then, what are you guys doing with single track around the event, because I know Mike's out there taking some shots.
Speaker 1:We have the absolute best photographer and maybe second to Leah, the second biggest fan of ultra running in our sport, mike McMonagall, out in Innsbruck, austria, covering the race on a day to day basis. We're doing sort of like day in the life type posts right now. We're recording this. on Tuesday We'll do the opening ceremonies later tonight, as travel allows, doing coverage of all four events out there short distance, you know, all mountain, long trail, etc. And then some recap stuff as well, maybe maybe some finish line interviews. So anyways, yeah, it'll be awesome to have Mike out there and it'll be a perfect compliment to this episode in the live stream too, which we'll link. we'll find the link and we'll put it there in the show notes.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's on the world mountain running championships website.
Speaker 1:Anyways, what a crazy time in our sport right now. June is just packed to the brim with events. I wish this was a little bit more distributed, but we're just kind of taking taking the fire hose of racing and content right now.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so many fantasy free trail picks to be made right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, anyways, this was awesome. You guys are the best. Can't thank you enough for your wisdom and insights and fandom. Yeah, i'm excited for this race and the rest of the month and, uh and Leah, i guess we're not going to probably have you on the pod again until uh, either maybe before Western states for a pre race interview or post race. But uh, if we don't say it live again. Best of luck at Western later this month. Everyone in Salt Lake is rooting for you. I'm sure a lot of fans of the podcast are and very excited to see that race go down. So best of luck there.
Speaker 3:Thank you, excited to be out there in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1:Brett. Any, any final thoughts, any movie references or words of wisdom for the audience before we go.
Speaker 2:Well, i did have a team USA like. One of the points of the episode was where it goes Like how can I, uh, you know, correlate or parallel some of the team aspect to this? And I was said to quote the great Troy Bolton We're all in this together. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Before we sign off if you are a fan of the show, please consider supporting us with a rating and a review in your podcast player, a donation on Patreon or the use of our sponsor discount codes in the show notes. We really appreciate your support. Thank you so much for listening And until next time. I'm your host, finn Melanson, and you have been listening to the single track podcast.
